Robert Wirth, Jr., now owes around $100,000 in legal fees following the seven-year epic battle with his HOA, which foreclosed on his home (actually owned by his wife) to collect the debt incurred after he was caught walking his black lab, Cole, without a leash in the deed-restricted subdivision.
]]> Wirth refuses to pay the fine because he believes the restrictions are too, well, restrictive, and shouldn't even apply to his wonderful, well-behaved dog.But even if Cole is "gentle and loving", his owner certainly isn't: If Wirth loses the case, he intends to shoot and kill a board member, citing Florida's "Stand Your Ground Law", which allows you to "meet force with force, including deadly force... if necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm."
"I am not going to let them ruin me and my wife like this without standing up to them," Wirth told the St. Petersburg Times. The paper says his threat was reported to the police, and they are "monitoring the situation" while the case is being appealed.
An expert interviewed in the article says that deed restriction violations rarely result in the resident losing the home, but that the HOA has an obligation to enforce the restrictions.
"If they don't take steps to enforce deed restrictions," Lyons [a local real estate attorney] said. "They lose the ability to enforce them."
Man, you gotta know when to hold them.. and when to fold them. That's our advice.
Foreclosure looms over Tarpon Springs man who walked dog off leash [St. Petersburg Times]
(Photo: BL1961)
...Electric heat is too inefficient and expensive....
Expensive, maybe. Inefficient, no.
Electric heat is 100% efficient. I'm with you on the anti-HOA sentiment, however.
]]>POINT #2
Many law suits have been filed because of a FRIENDLY dog not on a leash attacking another animal or person. That is why there are leash laws. People have been killed by loose dogs. Having to pay possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars after loosing a law suit, and doing time in jail is a lot less than a $1,000 fine. I am guessing the fine is so high because they tried a lower amount and the owners figured they could pay it and forget about it.
POINT #3
If you read a HOA contract and don't like one or more RULES, don't sign it, and don't live there. HOAs were set up so certain people could have CERTAIN RULES for EVERYBODY to live by. As with living in the USA, it is a person's CHOICE. Nobody MAKES you do it.
Your admonition of Charlotte Rae's Web to lock the child in the house is heartless, pointless, callous and crass.
]]>And then there's Disneyworld. Disney pretty much is the government in the area around there, not just de facto, but as a legally recognized entity with taxing and zoning powers (not sure about police, courts and other). Sort of a super-HOA
]]>In the past I've been the HOA's secretary. I've also gotten the warnings and fines, grumbled quietly about them for a while, then fixed the problem to come back into compliance.
]]>Those little purse-dogs look about the size of a football, and I've always wanted to see one get punted, and if I could outfit one in some sort of doggy-armor suit, I'd punt it myself.
I think the dogs look at 'em like squeaky toys, and likely wonder if they keep chewing on it, will it stop squeaking and get thrown out?
]]>Not to be rude myself, but some of us untrained, uneducated country folk with our simpleton ways might not agree with you. If you are taking offense to a simple descriptor used in a non-derogatory manner, then I will take exception to your touting of paid services as some sort of advantage over others.
I've enjoyed plenty of your posts here, but I don't agree with firing off on someone about racism while talking down to them because of an assumed educational difference.
]]>Most HOA areas or deed restricted areas are not in a gated community.
I have no sympathy for idiots like this.
]]>There was a recent study that showed purposely avoiding the mention of race can, itself, be seen as racist. Maybe, just maybe, we should give people the benefit of the doubt on these manners. We do see race. You walk down the street and see a group of people that are a different race than you and, yes, most people will actually notice their race. It is merely a detail -- neither good nor bad. Just mentioning someone's race is not in itself offensive or antagonistic or indicative of bias.
]]>@bbagdan: Just like this guy!
These defendants say they/their dog is not responsible because the bike rider was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he could have decided to ride on any of the other "2500 miles" of bike trails in their state. Crazies.
]]>@Alys Brangwin is one smartass pawn: Sounds like the situation I used to have with my cute little cocker spaniel. So many people thought they had some sort of magical mind-meld powers where they could connect with my dog... "oh he won't bite me, dogs love me!" Um yeah sure. Even if I told them that the vet determined the dog had a genetic predisposition of "a nervous tendency to bite", they never believed it. Stupid hippies.
]]>@Esquire99: Read his County Court files, he has been sued by credit cards, finance companies, he has sued the association and lost on other occasions.
I opine that this guy has some sort of mental problem and they are manifest in his odd behavior. This is not simply a HOA fining some guy for walking a dog off a leash one time, it is him exacerbating the situation in any way possible.
He is even made at the State because someone dumped concrete behind his house before he lived there and he thinks it is an enviornmental and navigation hazard. The local code enforcement, the county enviornmental enforcement unit, and the state don't think so but he was in the paper a few years ago about that. I wonder who he sued that time.
I think this guy is off his rocker.
]]>It is certainly true. Even if a dog is not violent, it can be a little overzealous at times. Sometimes it is to the point of charging a little kid in enjoyment and hurting the kid. All that and the dog doesn't even have to be violent.
]]>@Parapraxis: I just wouldn't live there, period.
]]>All I can think of is when Homer was the head of the Union.
Does the job of president pay anything?
No
D'oh
Unless you're crooked
WOOHOO
I never said they violate a specific provision as outlined in the Constitution. My problem is that they often take on the governing powers typically reserved to governments. One need only pass the 3rd grade to know that certain powers (certainly almost all powers significant to one's life-public education, marriage, property taxes, drivers licenses) are understood by the Constitution to be relegated to the states. While local governments are not provided for in the Constitution, I believe in certain cases as in the case of my home, HOA's supersede not only the territory that should be the concern of a local government, but concerns that a government should and could not have control over.
Such is the case in my neighborhood. I understand that by living in an a place governed by a HOA, one is notified of that particular areas codes and such, but I believe, once again, this is a twofold violation of 1) infringing on the territory of a government and 2) superseding the power any true, reasonable power of our democratic government (in some cases). Leash laws, where I live (thank Pete) are by local ordinance and not HOAs, because they should not be the domain of HOAs.
An asinine response in my opinion is that Homeowners may "choose not to live there" and "have to sign a contract." I understand full well what a contract is, I do not agree with it. Though certainly not an egregious violation of my rights, I go absolutely batshit when I think that I can only paint my house certain colors, or that certain things in my backyard(that are not lewd or otherwise inappropriate) must not be visible from the street, where I can keep my dog. Screw property values. What is reasonable, a local government can legislate. Everything else is bullshit
]]>The fact that he is still flaunting the rule makes him an ass. If you disagree with a rule, work to change it. Breaking it does not make you right.
]]>You're a laff riot. Very subtle. And not on point.
]]>You don't see why not?
Please. You are being extremely disingenuous.
Read a book? I have written books. How about you? Don't tell me about writing, journalistic or otherwise. This is basic decency we're talking about. OK, I'm done. Never underestimate, etc etc....
]]>My point is, even my loving, well behaved dogs scare the daylights out of some people by simply running in their general direction. I know we can't cater to EVERYONE'S fears (I'm sure someone in my building has a pet snake, for example, but I'm not getting out my pitchfork just yet), but something as simple as a leash is just common courtesy when you live in a populated area.
Plus, people can freaking steal your dogs. They have microchips now, but those aren't really effective unless you live in the same place and go to the same vet where you bought and activated it.
]]>IANAL and YMMV, but I believe he's wrong. Certainly in TX he is. The HOA has first lein on all properties under jurisdiction and the homeowner signed over this right when the house was purchased.
It isn't that hard to fill out a variance request and submit it, but most people are either too lazy or to inimical ("no one better tell me what I can do to MY house!!!!") to follow the rules. These are the same people who will complain about their neighbors when they break the rules.
]]>---
It is patently easy to apply for a variance, and most are rubber-stamped, unless they are crazy. If JGBrock had applied for a variance on his playground equipment and fence, most likely they would have granted it and the matter would be closed.
]]>In Houston (TX), up until very recently, it was legal to park one's car on one's front lawn. Of all of the HOAs I dealt with (I used to work at a HOA Management Co), none of them would allow a resident to park his or her car on the lawn, let mold grow on the side of the house, let the front lawn grow wild, let garbage be placed out on non-garbage days, etc., etc.
Under your plan, all of the above--and more--would not be enforced.
-------------
An interesting aspect of HOAs: the more wealthy the residents, the less severe the penalties. In one of the homes that Ken & Linda Lay (of Enron infamy) own, at most a resident will ever see is a warning letter when one of the rules are broken. They told us to never escalate to a level 2 letter (which says basically, fix it or you're going to get sued) or refer the resident to the attorney.
]]>@unobservant: I am not sure about the movies CARRIE or THE SHINING, but I am glad ADOLPH HITLER never knew about HOME OWNERS ASSOCIATION'S (HOA). Can you imagine how much legal power that would have given him. He would have been unstoppable.
]]>I've never understood why people are willing to sign away their rights to these HOAs.
]]>@s73v3r: Well, for starters, guests are free to park in the driveway. If there's no room, they must park in one of the lots. There's plenty of parking and regardless of where you live, you wouldn't have to walk more than 2 buildings away -- the equivalent of about 25-50 yards.
And, yes, guests' cars fall under the HOA authority. Residents are responsible for their guests. Honestly, it's not that big of a deal, some people just like to complain about everything.
Having said that, I can also tell you that I've since moved and live in a non-HOA neighborhood and vow to never return to one. I think the majority of HOA rules serve the greater good of the community. Problem is, the board tends to made up of people on a power trip, enforcing their versions of the rules, hoping to find someone in violation. Stereotypical or not, my previous HOA was made up of mostly woman, stay at home, bitter, responsibily for most of the neighborhood gossip, who would walk the streets at night with a clipboard taking note of changes made to someone's property.
]]>My dog was in my backyard, with a 6 foot high fence, and an electric collar/fence around the perimeter so he can't get out.. Two of my neighbors rottweilers that were being walked, without a leash, broke through the wooden fence and tore him to shreds. Oh sure, the neighbors said the dogs were friendly, and had never attacked anyone before.. but I still ended up with a dead dog. Had there been a child playing in the backyard, they probably would have gone after it too.
]]>@econobiker: He is always out with his dog when he lets her 'go'. I'm not concerned about her eating dead animals. She doesn't wander far and always comes when she's called.
Actually, she's much better behaved than he is.
]]>One question: If they weren't Hispanic or Black, would he have said "white people"?
]]>One question: If they weren't Hispanic or Black, would he have said "white people"?
]]>One question: If they weren't Hispanic or Black, would he have said "white people"?
]]>One question: If they weren't Hispanic or Black, would he have said "white people"?
]]>@JiminyChristmas: The harm is that people who don't have their animal on a leash let said animal approach strangers, human and animal alike.
The dog being "friendly" doesn't make it less scary, make the person it's jumping on and licking less allergic, or the larger dog it's barking at less likely to bite it's head off.
]]>Maybe we need a new tag to indicate the story is about a bad/crazy person that's not a consumer.
]]>Another fine HOA forecloses on member who walks his dog.
]]>I've come to understand on Consumerist that some of y'all apparently live in zoning- and code-free realms where people CAN put cars on cinderblocks in their front yards, but everywhere I've lived, those kinds of things have already been prohibited by city code and you can just call the nice folks at code enforcement to come and start issuing tickets.
]]>I'm kinda on the fence with this one. Usually I would jump in on the guys side but living in a condo myself I know that reasonable regulations need to be enforced. In Fla, at least for condos, if you sue them or they sue you, the loser pays the others expenses. I know that for sure as I am suing my Assn but unlike this guy our BOD dosen't enforce the regulations, even when you cite chapter and verse of the regulations they do nothing. See: [nautiluscovesuit2008.blogspot.com] or [nautiluscondosrules.blogspot.com] if you need more info on a really stupid condo complex in NW Florida. If you are looking for a Fla condo you will NOT want to buy here!
]]>@missdona: Unleashed dogs often like to eat dead wild animals. Sometimes these animals still have the poisons which killed them in their stomachs. The owner should be aware of this...
A past landlord had an issue with an unleashed dog threatening his young daughters - age 2 and 5- even on their front driveway and lawn. This was in a decent development but in an un-incorporated area. He told me that he documented the issue, sent registered letters to the owner, had his lawyer send a couple letters, and was told by the police/sheriff nothing doing until the dog bit a child, etc. He said the owner basically blew him off and didn't do squat about it.
My landlord told me that finally one night the dog disappeared never to return. He said that that tends to be a problem with unleashed dogs by definition. I was watching his face as he told me this and completely understood what he was talking about...
]]>@1stMarDiv: I never swerve for animals while in a car/truck. I am not trashing any four wheeled vehicle or risking my life for a pet or wild animal.
A couple of years back I am driving through my HOA managed development in my midsized pickup truck while following a slow moving car. That slow moving car would be both the cause and savaltion of the dog's actions as described below.
There was a dog which I knew chased cars on a certain block. Never on a lease was the dog- some sort of Golden Retriever or similar.
Did I mention that I never swerve for animals while in a car/truck?
Stupid dog runs out to chase the car in front of me, doesn't understand that I am following in my truck, and promptly goes under the front of the truck. I dragged him maybe 6' to 8' before I could stop. But I had been going slow...
I pondered what to do for a minute and then reversed to see if the dog was wacked or just damaged. I figured if he was toast, I would have put him in the truck bed for removal and burial somewhere else. If he was just injured I would have called the police and had them write an unleased pet ticket against the owner via my sworn oath if the police would not have done it.
As I backed off of him, the stupid dog gets up and runs away!!! Oh well not my problem now... I never did see the dog again so either he learned his lesson or went off and died somewhere.
Stupid owners...
]]>Don't tell me about journalism. I was a war correspondent in the Marine Corps for five years, so I know a little about it. This isn't journalism, this is a website where people post anecdotes, advice, etc. etc. Get over yourself.
Isn't it amazing how overly sensitive we are when it comes to things like this? I was hoping my post would garner reaction due to what happened to the dog, but instead people are griping about calling a group of people "Hispanic".
But you're right. I shouldn't have referred to the person I was with as "my wife" either. Instead I should have called her a "carbon-based life form." And I can't believe I haven't been called out for calling the SUV black - it's easy to see I associate dog killers with black people, hence me describing the black SUV.
]]>@ElizabethD: Well, I know this isn't journalism. It's a story some guy is relating on the internet. Details tend to make stories more interesting.
Of course, he could have just said, "I once saw an unleashed dog struck by a motor vehicle" and made exactly the same point. But it doesn't really put you in the moment.
]]>I'm just saying that community organizations should not make laws that are not in their county or state constitution.
@Trai_Dep: only if that community has it's own security that gives private tickets/violations.
But if you are in your own development and its on private streets then police from that community have no right to stop somebody from speeding or parking illegally. Only the HOA has those rights.
(know this from an associate of my wife who fought his parking tickets in his condo area and won effectively making the town give back all parking violations funds for the past year, something around 30k) I'm sure their property taxes went UP :P
]]>A child is not breaking the law by not being on a leash. However, if a toddler ran into the street (i.e. jaywalking) and injured me, damn right I would seek compensation. If someone was criminally negligent and caused damages to you, you would not sue?
]]>My dog is NOT friendly (she's 13 and crotchety). If your sweet, gentle, leashless dog comes up to greet my dog and my dog eats it alive, you have NO GROUNDS FOR SUING ME unless I'm on your property. Even then, most small claims courts will dismiss the case because you have to be in control of your animal AT ALL TIMES.
Stupid. Why would you put your pet at risk?
]]>@Divals:
As did I attempt to avoid the dog, duh! No, I purposely chased the dog and ran him over. @AirIntake:
]]>More like 30 (more than adequate to kill a rider in a crash), but as a top-ranked competitive cyclist, I would claim severe emotional and financial damages if I had to miss the racing season, particularly if I were never able to compete again.
]]>Everyone: In the journalism world, we learn not to include descriptors that are unnecessary to understanding the story. We don't need to know, for example, that the board chairwoman was wearing a sleeveless purple blouse or that the hospital president is a black man -- unless someone at the board meeting got mad and ripped that purple blouse off the chairwoman's back and that become the lede of the article, or the hospital president is the first black person to lead this particular hospital in the formelry segregated Deep South and that's the point of the story. Etc.
So, NO -- the original poster should have omitted the race of the dog owners from his post. There is just no reason in the world to include it unless the poster was referencing an imagined stereotype about Hispanics and their yappy little uncontrolled beaner dogs. You know?
]]>So based on my completely emotional reaction, I hope they keep fining him and make a point out of it by doing whatever is needed to enforce the community law.
]]>I live across the street from one. Luckily I dodged that bullet. A guy in my area was ticked off from it though and read into it and got on the news for doing crazy stuff to his property. Don't know what ever came of it, I think he just moved.
I've been reported to it before even got about five letters about my home needing to be 40% brick on the outside or something. Until I got the final notice then I called the number and haven't heard back since.
]]>BUT, some guy comes in, buys a house and tears it down. He now wants to build a 3 story glass and metal art-deco house. The HOA would prevent him from doing that. There is the potential that his 3 story glass house would depress property value as who would want to live next to or near that house? That would force people to sell their house for a lesser amount to entice someone to deal with this guy's new house.
HOA can be a pain in the butt, but they can also make sure people don't do god awful things which affect your enjoyment of your property. Would you like it if someone put cars on cinderblocks in their front yard and you lived across the street?
]]>You buy a house , not a neighborhood or set of organizational rules . HOA or the condo commandoes should have no say in your sale/transaction . In most cases there are laws and ordinances that cover the pettyness of these organizations . These so called neighborhood organization should have no say on your personal rights .
Until more people challange and flat out disagree with these rules on the paper transaciton ie the sale this crap will continue to happen .
In most communities unless your dog is in a fenced in yard they're supposed to be on lease and yet , really folks - how many times are rules like that enforced . And in reality how often do they actually need to be enforced . But that's the point ,call city hall , the police or ASPCA I don't care . But don't expect me to waive my rights away because the neighborhood dictator said so .
]]>@tundey:
In Phoenix, the excuse was that they had not noticed.
In KC, it turns out that there was something called a HOA lien on the house which, apparently, has no force whatsoever. The bank (who owned the house due to foreclosure) ignored it. It never came up during the closing. We found out only when we were sent the notice from the HOA. Like it said, the HOA backed down, but, if they hadn't, I would have raised holy hell with the bank for not telling me. Probably would have done no good whatsoever, but I would have screamed at them anyway.
]]>There's no one to sympathize with in this story. One party, the HOA, is hell-bent on enforcing the rules just for the sake of enforcing the rules. The other seems equally determined to break the rules for the sake of breaking the rules. That said, according to the article, the dog is well-behaved…so where is the actual harm with it not being on a leash? If the dog isn't a nuisance, the only harm done is to the sensitivities of the rule-enforcers.
Likewise, a $1000 fine? Ridiculous. That tells you something right there: the HOA has a vastly inflated sense of the importance of their rules. Sure the guy signed the deed restriction but people should have the right to buy a home in a place of their choosing without being subject to arbitrary and capricious rules. Living in a deed-restricted community shouldn't mean that you become the HOA's bitch because of THE RULES. After all, aside from cruel and unusual punishment, the 8th Amendment also outlaws 'excessive fines.' I'm actually pretty surprised a judge upheld the reasonableness of the fine.
]]>@zibby:
I thought you were being serious at first, but now I get it. But I guess I'm still a racist, according to SynMonger.
Nice call buddy. You also forgot to mention I called the SUV "black"....I bet, in your fragile world, that's considered racist too.
Calm down people.
]]>If I was riding my bike and a dog ran out in front of me, I would go to whatever lengths I could to avoid hitting it, even causing myself bodily harm. I've been in bike wrecks before, I can deal with bleeding...
]]>While I'll admit that it's a lot of money for such a seemingly benign offense, and it seems dictatorial, I'm sure it encouraged a lot of people to follow the rules and prevented further break-ins. I don't really see how we could have done it otherwise. When I broke the rules, I paid the consequence.
This is pretty much off-topic. I just meant to say that I'm sure there were also good reasons for why this guy wasn't allowed to walk his dog around without a leash, and there shouldn't be any exceptions in these cases.
]]>Squirrels, racoons, no. But there are special indications for dogs and cats. You're supposed to stop, and attempt to inform either the owners or the police.
]]>- Electric heat
- HOAs.
Electric heat is too inefficient and expensive. HOAs are just an extra layer of government, taking your money, and yes, providing some services, but ultimately telling you what you can do with your own property.
]]>@JoshReflek: I hear you, but it's just not worth it. It's a nice concept, but I still have to live next to the guy. It's not that important to me to start a war over it. And that's what it would be.
If I thought he was a rational person, who could deal with the feedback in a normal, calm matter, I would consider it.
]]>@wchamilton: As my old man would say, "An animal can turn on you at any time and for any reason - including none at all."
]]>@1stMarDiv: And why did you need to mention your wife? Were you worried we might think you weren't straight or something? You should have said "significant other."
And why did you have to mention that the dogs were small? It really wasn't necessary, you know?
]]>Baltimore just adopted new leash violation fines that start at $1K for the first offense.
I don't know what the fines are for letting your dog kill someone, though.
]]>I'm not sure,but I believe that Texas has a similar law.
]]>It's the perfect organization that attracts the biggest douchebags in a 2 mile radius for membership. From my experience it's full of people who a)have way too much time on their hands, b)love telling people what to do and c)power mongers.
I hate HOA's with a passion.
]]>I support the HOA having this regulation. I don't know enough about the specifics to know if $1000 for a violation is reasonable, if this truly is the first violation (could this be a 1st violation is $100, second is $300, third is $600?). Leashing a properly trained dog is no imposition on either party. If the guy's complaint revolves around the dog being so poorly trained that he can't handle a leash, he shouldn't be beyond the confines of a properly maintained and regularly inspected fence.
As an aside, I don't believe those 25 foot leashes are following the spirit of the rule, they don't protect fellow pedestrians and they can't keep a dog from sprinting into the road after a ball or butterfly and getting hit by a car.
]]>@SynMonger: Godwin!!
]]>I don't believe ANY HOA should be able to enforce such a harsh fine on something so little. If the fine was something more reasonable say like $25-75 dollars, I'm sure it would have been paid by now.
]]>@Eyebrows McGee (on Twitter: LPetelle): Good for the hawks. Doing everyone a favour.
]]>However, as far as leash laws go, it's not just an HOA thing but a countywide thing that dogs have to be leashed unless their on that person's private property.
Nobody follows this and I have come this close to running over three separate dogs in the neighborhood, not out of malice, because they come running out of nowhere and have never been trained properly and the owners always give me shit for driving too fast (I'm not going to drive slower than 15 in my neighborhood) or not looking.
Last time, a dog literally came out and SAT in front of my car. The owner ran out and was like "Gus! Guuuuuuuus! C'mere Gus!" and the dog wouldn't even move. The woman had to drag the dog out of the way, a bit of a feat for a tiny anorexic fashion-obsessed woman and a giant St. Bernard.
Now that I think about it, maybe that dog had a deathwish. Anyway, leash laws are there for a reason and it's idiots like the OP (and my neighbors) that think they're too high and mighty to obey.
]]>Most HOAs can change their rules with very little notice to the homeowner. Best advice - don't buy one. If you think small town politics are corrupt you haven't seen anything like a HOA board meeting.
]]>@missdona: so you let this guy bully you with his unleashed dog and gun on his side?
if you dont want the flags, tell him DIRECTLY.
if you want his dog on a leash, ASK HIM to do so.
dont get bullied.
]]>He will lose. That's all.
]]>I think it's pretty safe to say that this guy did not wind up with the original $1,000 fine after a single violation.
"It all started more than seven years [earlier than April 2002] ago because Wirth insisted on walking his black Labrador, Cole, regularly without a leash. In January 2003, the River Watch Homeowners Association fined Wirth and his wife, Sandra L. Blaker, $1,000 for doing so." So he had been violating the covenant for months, and he was also viewed as "the most flagrant and continual violator of the pet restriction within the community."
]]>I don't really see any problem with this case, except for it's TOTAL AND COMPLETE RIDICULOUSNESS, but that's not illegal. Bad policy, but not illegal.
]]>You didn't address any of that, merely made strawman arguments about other things.
Is the story true?
]]>@nbs2: He keeps the dog on the property, and not really where anyone besides us would be bothered. An 'anonymous' tip would certainly lead him to us.
@SynMonger: We can get pretty stubborn. We just don't care enough about it to go through it with him.
]]>Mea culpa, it's a different spelling! This is not the same HOA!!!!
Serves me right for going off right after a big cup of coffee!
]]>You were getting the license plate so the SUV driver could sue the dog's owner for damage to their vehicle, right?
Because, if you were getting it to somehow give them a hard time, let me tell you, the law is on the SUV owner's side. They were being nice driving away. Otherwise, either they or their insurance company could collect damages against the dog's owner for allowing their property to damage their vehicle. If the cops arrived and wrote up the incident, the driver may not even have a choice in the matter (Insurance companies are great at getting that info in a hurry, and they like their $$$).
That is how the laws are written. Of course, if you don't like them, you're free to vote to change them. Personally, I think they're best the way they are, though. It keeps terrible pet owners on their toes, so to speak.
]]>I have renters insurance, which covers this sort of thing, however I shouldn't have to worry about it at all. Leash laws exist for a reason. I do NOT want to send these dogs to animal control, but despite numerous phone calls and knocks on the door, the neighbors still just open their doors and let their dogs run free.
]]>1) Developer right being held in perpetuity against the original HOA ( they have since regained control )
2) Claiming deleper right on properties already developed ( so they don't have to pay dues )
3) Getting contractors to do work without bids ( paid for with HOA dues ) and then getting complementary work done on their homes as well.
4) Painting common building without home owners approval for their daughters wedding.
5) Destroying HOA documents in order to hide their illegal activities.
...
and the list goes on and on.
]]>This guy is LYING. Do not believe a word he says. He and his developer cronies are on the loosing end of a protracted battle of *the owners* to regain control of the place.
]]>It'll hold up in court. But do you (and the HOA) have more balls, stamina, and stubborness of the old fart who's breaking the rules?
For all but the most nazi-like HOAs, the answer is no.
]]>@pecan 3.14159265: I don't think s/he was complaining about the dog rule, but the fact that HOA's have the power to foreclose on your home over what can often be very arbitrary rules. If the fine had been for painting his front door a non approved colour, not for walking his dog without a leash, would you still be supporting the HOA? Yes, this rule has safety implications, but as you said, the government likely regulates this already, let them deal with it. Like lemortede, when it comes time for me to buy property, it will be very, very, unlikely that I purchase a new home for just this reason; I'm fine with the government telling me I can't do things that are unsafe, I'm not fine with an HOA telling me I can't do something because they want the neighbourhood to have a certain homogenous look (also, there are certain benefits I would derive from buying a used home in the city, some personal, some relating to incentives for buying used property in my jurisdiction).
]]>I guess racism really isn't over :(
]]>Its gone way past where it should have stopped. He is wrong to have broken a rule but they are just as wrong for upping the ante. Nobody is going to win in the end. And being right isnt always the winning way to end the situation sometimes you have to back away and let it go just to keep the peace.
]]>That said, it's possible the driver of the SUV didn't realize he had run over an animal.
]]>Not if the original contract was illegal at its formation, or was declared unconscionable.
I think HOAs are obviously legal, but I think they're extraordinarily bad policy and I do think there are clear cases where they've become a de facto state agent and therefore are now violating Constitutional rights. I've also seen large numbers of HOAs and condo associations in violations of state property laws and so forth, and where I am there's little oversight or enforcement from the state. I do think a lot of this happens not from malice aforethought but from non-professional boards copying other boards and not understanding the application of the law or differences between the laws in city X and city Y.
We had a local HOA "steal" a street from the city. It turns out the city kinda frowns on that.
]]>Now now, let's not make threats.
]]>@pecan 3.14159265: That's not what I said at all. I actually specifically wrote that I wasn't excusing breaking the rules, but that I can see how it happens.
@snowburnt: Maybe I should have elaborated. The law in my neighborhood extends to all animals. This includes my Conure despite the fact that he has clipped wings and doesn't leave my arm (or yard). I mean it's not a big deal, he has a little birdie leash, but I was responding mostly to the people that were in awe that someone would do such a thing. It happens a lot where I am. People know everyones dogs. Cats hang out on neighbor's porches. When I lived in the south it was actually the norm.
]]>@wchmltn:
...in found the story's link less than helpful
]]>@PersonalBest: So do you just go along with all rules no matter how rediculous and unjust?
You can vote people out of the HOA and you can push your own agenda
BTW a bit of information for people. The police have no authority over the streets inside any Apartment complex,Condo/townhouse area unless the area is public domain (which 99% of the time it is not) This means any tickets you've gotten are illegal and can be fought (parking/speeding) etc.
]]>Especially if you have a history of letting your dog run around without a leash.
]]>I hate HOAs and most of their stupid rules creating cookie-cutter houses and boring neighborhoods. That said, people need to leash their pets. I was walking in a park one day on a high hill and was threated by a stupid dog whose owner wouldn't come up and get him.
And this guy is a psycho. Killing someone? Over a fine? Legally, that is not what the law is there for. You cannot kill someone because they chose to fine you. Jesus. I wouldn't want him to be my neighbor.
Consumerist, please don't side with the psychos.
]]>When you buy a place with an HOA (at least in VA) you have 30 days to reconsider after receiving the HOA docs. My guess is that no one reads them.
HOAs aren't bad for condos, when you buy a Condo you usually want less hassle than a house or townhouse. They take care of the grounds, you make sure your windows are ok.
]]>I see your point, but I did forget to mention something. As the SUV was coming down the street, it had plenty of time to either slow down or move out of the way. Also, I stepped a little onto the street and started waving my arms in the air for the car to slow down. So unless the driver was completely blind, he saw the dog, not to mention I'm sure he felt the impact as well.
You may not have to stop if you hit an animal, but common sense and human decency would lead me to believe that the right thing to do would have been to stop.
]]>Our neighbors have two annoying dogs and only one leash. The dogs are not neutered and they stay cooped up in a small fenced backyard most of the time. So, when it's time to take the dogs out for a walk, one goes on a leash and the other runs free. The first thing the loose dog does is run as fast as he can and as much as he can through yards, flowerbeds, and the streets. It's a nuisance and a hazard, and it violates the city's leash law to boot.
]]>@morganlh85: While that may be true, I don't think this situation has anything to do with dogs. This is a case about a man living in a neighborhood run by a HOA and he refuses to play by the rules. I have no sympathy for the man in this situation. HOA rules suck, but they're generally put in place for the good of the neighborhood.
As an example, I onced lived in a townhouse neighborhood that had a HOA. One of the rules was residents were not allowed to park in the street. Everyone had 1-2 car garages, driveways long enough for 2-3 cars, and plenty of parking lots scattered throughout the community. But, before long, people started parking in the streets. And, violaters were ticketed $100 per occurance. These people would come up with some lousy excuse and complain at the quarterly HOA meetings why they couldn't park in the spots provided. But, truth is, parking cars in the street made the community look awful. I hated when people would park their cars in the street, especially in front my house. Luckily, the HOA didn't back down and took further legal action against some of the worst offenders.
When I moved into the neighborhood, I got a book on the HOA rules. Regardless of some of the comments made on this blog, none of these rules were buried deep in the text of the document. They're very clear. And, the rules always cover the same common issues: dogs, parking, lawn care, decorations, noise, garbage, etc. And, before signing any documents, we were presented a package of rules to review prior to buying a property. There's no excuse.
]]>@headcase:
Which happens often. Small notebook paper sign says meeting tomorrow. 6 people show up and they change the rules. Then they say "Oh you weren't at the meeting, sorry."
I am on a board now and the previous one was like this...
]]>I was walking my 120 lb mastiff with my leash when a dog with out a leash came out and ran up all friendly to my dog and they went at it. I tried to pull my dog away but she's a big dog and even when I was able to move her, it was basically setting my dog up to be attacked by a dog that wasn't controlled. The owner came out and couldn't get their dog off by calling out to it. Had my dog or me been injured, in my state, the other dog (and the owner) would have been responsible. even if the other dog only weighed 10 pounds.
Just because one dog is responsible, not all of them are. If you are an excellent driver, should we just let you drive 120mph everywhere? If you think you drive better drunk than sober, should we let you drive drunk?
]]>Yes I understand the "it's in the deed" but I had an issue with our HOA. We lived in a new community that was still under builder control. Nothing was enforced until the members took over. When they did the directors decided to change a lot of the rules stating they "provided clarification" this was under a new property manager who was a scam artist I fee which increased our fees from $55a year to $375 with very little to show for it. It took a group actually dismissing the entire board and firing the manager to take care of it. Then we (I'm now apart of the board) had to revamp the entire terms and condition had a real vote on it that was open to discussion.
So my issue here is these board members can get a really swollen head and push initiatives they "think" we need and want. This was a dog walking incident. It was your neighbor. Don't take the man's house because you want to prove a point. Apply the $1000 lien to his property yes, and just have it in 1st position. He can never refi or sell unless it's paid. Point made.
]]>@missdona: The HOA may not be a municipality, but your municipality is. And I'm sure that they have trespassing laws. Maybe the HOA could go after him for that after an "anonymous" tip?
]]>I'm sorry, but I can't muster up any sympathy for this guy. When I bought my condo, I received a book of rules that was inches thick but I still read it to make sure that I wasn't agreeing to anything that I found completely unreasonable. And frankly, I don't consider keeping my dog on a leash and picking up after her unreasonable - it's just common courtesy!
]]>@John: Context on dog type for those familiar? I don't hang out in dog-owning circles, but I have noticed that middle class suburban white folks in my (DC) area are big fans of Labs. Maybe suburban San Diego Hispanics have a particular dog type they prefer, and that give dog context.
But, I have no idea. Just trying to come up with something.
]]>They should have put a lien against his house that could have just sat there. They would have got their money eventually if the guy tried to sell the home or if he died. Instead they wasted a ton of money because they can and are foreclosing on a home just for that reason.
]]>@wchamilton: What they always say at our local animal shelter to prospective adopters, "anything with teeth can bite".
]]>Second, he should of folded a long time ago. I agree that a $1k fine is excessive, but to lose your house over it is just plain stupid. And over a lease too?
]]>It's an insanely high fine, and a lot of HOA rules are ridiculous -- but as others have said, this particular rule is reasonable, and the insanity of the fine doesn't even compare to this guy's crazy attitude that the rules he signed up for don't pertain to him. He's at fault here.
]]>@John:
About as necessary as pointing out the black SUV…not everyone's a racist, you know.
]]>We have a ridiculous law with a fine like this but no one really pays attention to it. People that have well-behaved dogs let their dogs walk with them leashless and everyone lets their cats roam. I'm not saying the man shouldn't be held accountable for breaking the rules, but I can see how it happens especially if you've lived in your home for years.
]]>I frequently run into neighbors walking their dogs off of a leash, when we have an HOA code and a county ordinance. A few of them must a death wish, because they automatically charge at my dog barking and snarling, totally ignoring their owner. I have a horrible feeling that one of these days we're going to end up with dead Terrier, and I'll be in a heap of trouble simply because my leashed dog who was protecting his owner committed the crime of being a large breed.
]]>Just yesterday I ran over an off-leash dog on my bicycle, breaking its leg. The owners saw me coming and did nothing to even grab the collar of the mutt. They can thank heavens I didn't crash or they would be facing a 6-figure lawsuit. Folks, if you love your animal, put it on a leash. Would you let your toddler run around in traffic?
]]>Good luck trying to collect. His house is in Florida. That means that if his wife declared homestead (and it meets the other rules for homestead),the HOA can piss up a tree until...Until they are chunking snowballs at one another in Miami Beach. Florida offers absolute protection against any lawsuit or lien on your primary residence. (This is why O.J. Simpson moved to Florida. He could moon Ron Goldman's family from his homestead -protected crib because it is virtually untouchable EXCEPT for the first mortgage during the owners lifetime)Since the HOA doesn't hold the first mortgage,if he stays there until death,they are out o' luck.It's when you try to sell or refinance that they can cloud your title with a lien or fine.
One of the reasons that Snarkysnake has a home in Florida...
]]>@1stMarDiv: Was it necessary to point out it was a Hispanic family?
]]>@synimatik: We treat our pets like children- naughty, belligerent children. We know they are troublemakers, so we don't take them into situations where that would be a problem, like shopping malls or public events.
]]>Of course he knew about it when he bought the home. It is a deed restriction.
The referring story states he regularly walked his dog without a leash so even if he didn't know originally, he did eventually. Given that he still does it, even today, he is not terribly sympathetic.
I really hope that with the last sentence of the post the Consumerist is not supporting a homicidal nut. He's going to shoot and kill soeone if he doesn't get his way? How is that an even remotely defensible position?
I have a wack job neighbor who refuses to leash his cocker spaniel. Our HOA strictly forbids dogs off leash, but he just doesn't give a damn. He says since the HOA isn't a municipality, they can't fine him and it will never hold up in court.
He even took to decorating our patio with American flags. Isn't that kind of him? He think we want American flags decorating our patio.
He's a vet and an ex-sheriff, and he carrys. So we think it's just best to keep the peace.
]]>Last summer I went on a walk with my wife through our neighborhood in San Diego, and in a nearby yard there were a few Hispanic people and two small dogs yipping around without leashes (there was also no fence). As we were walking, I made a comment to my wife about how the dogs should be on leashes, and right after saying that one of the dogs came running over to us on the opposite side of the street.
Sure enough, a black SUV happened to be speeding down the street at the same time, and the dog was literally about 4 feet away from us when the SUV ran him over with both tires. The worst part is that the dog didn't die right away; he immediately started writhing and convulsing in pain as one of the people in the yard rushed to pick him up. My wife started screaming and I tried to get a license plate number, but it was too late.
As an animal lover, I was more pissed off at the people who didn't use a leash in lieu of a fenced area. So anyway, screw this douchebag for being stubborn and not following a simple rule.
]]>Many pet people treat their pets like children, thusly automatically assume their pets are better than everyone else's. Which entitles them to circumvent the rules.
Bollux!
]]>In an HOA outside of Phoenix, I was threatened with losing my home over the height of a playground in my backyard. To make it even more madening, a) the playground was put up (apparently) two owners and fice years before I bought the house and b) the nasty letter was my very first contact from the HOA on the subject. I took the tarp off the top and that made them happy.
Then I moved to Kansas City. Six month in, I get a letter from the HOA telling me the fence around my backyard needed to be removed because it was too close to the sidewalk and I had not asked before having it built. Which, if you are playing along at home, should not suprise anyone that the fence was there when I bought the house.
Once I convinced them of this, they still wanted it to be come down or be moved, but they were willing to pay for it (I was amazed). I pointed out that this would mean paying for a new fence, moving or replacing the watering system, new landscaping, and new sod. They decided it was not that much of an eyesore, and they could live with it. I would bet, however, the next owner gets the same letter, though
]]>If my wife was in debt and going to collections, they couldn't take my car.
Something here doesn't seem right.
]]>"Wirth admits he still walks Cole without a leash."
So screw him.
]]>Ya, if its in the deed, it isn't a surprise.
]]>Did he know about the rule when they bought the home?
I can't stand when people think their pet is the special exception to a rule. If it says only service dogs are allowed inside, don't bring your Chihuahua in in a carrier and expect it to be cool. If there are leash restrictions, expect to get dinged if you ignore them. One asshole pet owner can ruin things for everyone who does follow the rules.
]]>That said, the homeowner moved into his house fully aware of the HOA rules. He chose to break them because of the mentality that "they apply to everyone but me". He refused to pay the fine and, as is their right, the HOA foreclosed on him.
Sorry, but the fault with this lies with the homeowner, not the HOA.
]]>