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Weltman and Reis are scumbags of the highest order; no surprise that they would play such games.
Weltman and Reis are scumbags of the highest order; no surprise that they would play such games.
I wonder if this will start a new kind of Nigerian Scam...
Dear Sir/Maddam,
I am the debtor of the estate of your 4th uncle Bob, the king of the Congo. He owes us money so now you do too. Pay up or we will send this email to 250 other people who you have no relation to.
Thanks
Some guy who uses Western Union.
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@jaydez: You might consider throwing in a death threat there, too, just to make sure the recipient understands you're serious.
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@jeffbone: OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUGUUUUUUUUUUUUU I DEY LAND HERE GUYMAN KEEEEEEEEEEEEP OOOOOOOOOOOOOOFFFFFFFF OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
@jaydez:I am the debtor of the estate of your 4th uncle Bob.....
I am the \"PREDATOR\" of the estate of your 4th uncle Bob... I mean bill collector.
Only sure things are debt, death and the bill collector is a lying SOB. All are equally painful, but most would rather die than deal with the other 2!
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I read this story last night on NYT. Forwarded it to a few people over IM. WOW. Talk about scummy.
Now we just need to find out who the people are in the story that were paying the $15/mo, and have them read it. Chances are, 99.999% of the people that are paying are doing so because they feel they are LEGALLY obligated to the debt. Something tells me, we should inform them they are not :-)
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I read this last night. The part that made me really angry was the widow at the end who was grateful to pay $5 whenever she could.
Scummy scumbags taking advantage any-which-way they can.
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This is... new? I worked collections while in college, and we were trained to do exactly this 6 years ago. It was moreso because 3/4 of the time the person would have a family member answer the phone and claim they were dead, than because we thought we'd get money from survivors.
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@Jakuub: Well, I suppose your telemarketing overlords have to tell you something to get you to basically rob from the grave...
@Trai_Dep: I understand the disgust for the profession, but this wasn't something they made up - I've spoken to more (supposedly) dead people than John Edward claims to have. Desperate people resort to desperate things (including working collections).
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My father died early in January, had hardly any debts to speak of and was in very good financial shape. There was a Citbank/Sears Mastercard bill that arrived a few days after his death -- the charges were legitimate and amounted to only a couple hundred dollars, so we just cut a check and sent it in as normal before calling to notify them of the death and that we were paying off and closing the account.
A week or so later, and still well before the due date on the original bill, we received a letter from a law firm noting that they'd received information that the account holder had died, with an attached collections notice for the amount on the aforementioned bill. By then, the Citibank phone system confirmed a zero balance, and the check cleared my mom's account days before.
We're somewhat at a loss for what to do now, if anything. Citibank says its a \"timing thing\" and not to worry about it, but the lack of professionalism and empathy is staggering, as we sincerely just wanted to pay the damned bill, close the account, and move ahead. Its extremely upsetting to have a company assume your family is going to try to take the deadbeat way out, and sic their lawyers on you before the next due date has even passed.
@castlecraver: It is likely an automatically created letter when the reason for closing an account is death.
they likely closed the account while it still had a balance and the letter was created before your cheque reached them.
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We're somewhat at a loss for what to do now, if anything. Citibank says its a \"timing thing\" and not to worry about it
@castlecraver: Do nothing, at least for now. I would guess that the company always sends a last bill when informed the account holder is deceased whether or not a due date for the balance has passed.
@Rectilinear Propagation: Thanks. That's what we're hoping.
It sort of makes me wonder if a deceased account holder (unwisely) had automatic payments set up, if the CC co. would continue trying to deduct the payment after receiving a death notice? If, as evidenced by our experience, its possible that no human even looks at the account before collections gets brought in, how likely is it that some payment processing computer somewhere will just keep doing its thing, in spite of the fact that the surviving heir to the bank account isn't legally liable for the debt and may want to settle it through probate? Makes me wonder.
Well, assuming the debt is legit, the CC company has claim on that bank account before the heirs do. The issue would be if _another creditor_ has prior claim on the assets in that bank account, in which case the CC company could be required to return the money, I suppose, as it was improperly distributed from the estate.
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Don't forget to take into consideration of it being a joint bank account as well. As it would be impossible to determine whose funds are whose.
When a person leaves behind a joint bank account, you can not determine what funds belonged to whom, so no estate could be derived from it as you wouldn't know what amount to split, and 50/50 doesn't actually apply.
What about if a debtor never receives the notice or doesn't know the person has died? are they still out of luck after the window closes?
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A few years ago when my husband's absentee, deadbeat father died, we were inundated with calls from collectors trying to settle the father's debt with us. Of course we didn't fall for it, but promptly directed (with an address and phone number) the collectors to the father's girlfriend who was the beneficiary of the deadbeat's estate.
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Is it intentional that in this case the bill collecters put the \"pathetic\" in empathetic?
I had it happen with a friend of mine who died and left me as a reference. Like a year after they called adn asked for me and tried to get me to pay almsot 400 dollars. I was like umm I didn't sign anything so have fun with that and just hung up. They continued to get my voicemail for about 3 months after then it just stopped.
But wait, since it is a violation of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act to contact friends/neighbors and family of someone owing a debt, their is room for a harassment suit!
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In CA, at least (and I'm sure the other states, but I don't work in them), the heirs are not responsible for the debt, but the estate is.
If there is a significant estate and there's no trust, it's important to start a probate as soon as possible and send out notice to all known debtors so they can make their claims. That starts a 60 day window in which they must file a claim. If you don't start that window they have up to one year to come after the estate (which can be after distribution, which means anyone distributed to would have to give back some or all of their distribution to pay back the debt - though it's pretty rare for a probate to be over with in a year). Even if the claim is valid the creditors are SOL on the 61st day after notice or 1 year after the date of death (with caveat that there are ways to get around this, but they are very difficult and mostly not accepted by the probate courts).
Disclaimer: IANAL, but I've worked for many years in estate planning and probate.
I knew someone who committed suicide but before she did she ran up all her credit cards and took out a 2nd mortgage to take trips and live large. She knew that the money would not have to be paid back after she was gone. It was sad that the kids got nothing but she knew the law.
@TEW:
i believe if she had life insurance then the proceeds of an insurance policy cannot be claimed by debtors... then again you can't committ suicide within the first 2 years (depending on policy/company i believe) of a life insurance contract and have it pay out, after that you're fine (or at least was for the company i used to work for)
@ilves:
You are correct,
Life insurance proceeds pass separate of the will and are not taxable or can creditors claim the right to them.
The only case this would be an exception would be if the insurance beneficiary is the estate of the person who died (which would be the dumbest thing you could do)
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I'd simply tell them, if the person's estate was still in probate to make their claim to the court. If the estate was out of probate I'd tell them to get bent, they had their chance to collect money out of the decedent's estate and missed the boat, too effing bad for them. I don't know if they can make a claim against a living trust or not. I know they can't make a claim against a life insurance payout with a named beneficiary.
Arizona works in much the same way as described in Cattivella's post about California. And if the estate is under $50,000 (small estate exemption) all creditors are pretty much out of luck.
Also, sending a bill in the deceased's name isn't considered good enough to make a valid claim on the estate. There is a formal process a creditor has to go through and in Arizona if they don't do this within four months of the probate announcement being placed in the paper then the creditor's claims aren't valid.
Something else to keep in mind is that in some cases things like life insurance and other death benefits go directly to the beneficiary and not through the estate. So creditors would not have a claim on these funds.
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This has been going on for ages. Back in the 80s my girl friend's mother died broke after a long fight with cancer. Debt collectors would call my girl friend and say \"I know your mother was an honorable person and would want her debts settled, so we're going to help you do the right thing by offering to settle the account in full if you can just pay half of what she owed.\"
Wow, what a deal.
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@weave: So does this apply to spouses of the deceased? My mother died of cancer three years ago, and she hadn't worked for over 30 years. I assumed that my dad was on the hook for her medical debt.
Was the debt on a joint account, or not? Was the debt secured? These are important questions!
Where I am, the only person/people responsible for a debt have their names signed to it. That would mean for a joint account or a reverse mortgage on a jointly held home (I imagine this is normally the case) both people are responsible parties if one goes dead(beat) the other party owes all outstanding debt.
If it's a personal loan, for example a personal line of credit or personal credit card of someone that has expired, the inheritance is raided to pay for it. If there isn't enough inheritance, tough bananas for the collector.
If the money is owed directly to the hospital, I don't know, that doesn't normally happen here. :^)
@magstheaxe: You likely assumed correctly. Laws governing marital property (both debts and assets) vary from state to state but, generally speaking, spouses are liable for each other's debts.
This job rates just above a sondercommando in Auschwitz as far as being a fulfilled human being.
@Trencher93:
That's a flat out depraved \"comment\".
The sondercommandos were ordered to do it!
They were then killed after a few months!
You can't be serious this is allowed, they are exploiting a loophole in the law to collect. I bet the only ones where they expressly tell some one they don't owe the debt is for the papers...otherwise they whine and guilt everyone into paying, calling constantly. This crap should be outlawed.
When I was working as a banker, I had one elderly guy come in to the bank and ask me over and over, and call me to ask me again over and over whether he had to pay his dead wife's credit card balance. His name was not on the account anywhere, it was solely in his wife's name. I felt so bad for him because I knew he didn't need to pay it, and told him so, but the debt collectors kept misinforming him and he wasn't confident enough to tell them to stop calling. :/
@junip: Why wasn't he liable for the debt? In most cases you are liable for your spouse's debts, and vice versa. Whether or not your name was on the account would be immaterial.
I am fairly sure that is NOT true for most states and am positive it is not true for the state of PA.
Unsecured debts are not inheritable by a spouse or otherwise unless they are JOINT account holders, even if they are authorized users of a credit card they are not liable.
Now secured debts are a different issue, they are linked to an asset such as a house so if the husband dies and the wife still wants to live in the house she better start paying the mortgage payments or the house will be gone.
Debt incurred during the marriage might be inheritable in a community property state which are as follows:
* Arizona.
* California.
* Idaho.
* Louisiana.
* Nevada.
* New Mexico.
* Texas.
* Washington.
* Wisconsin.
As for assets, ANY assets which are jointly owned (paid off house, car or bank account) immediately transfers to the spouse upon death and is not subject to probate and the creditors have no right to those assets.
Any debt collectors should be told to speak to the executor of the estate, it is his or her job to gathers all of the debts and assets and distribute those. There are also \"tiers\" of who gets paid first and last (CC companies are last).
If the estate does not have enough money to pay all of the debts then the estate is considered insolvent and not everybody gets paid, simple as that.
My father passed away 12/25/08 and has a very complicated estate, I a working closely with the lawyers and can confirm all of this information to be true for the state of PA and am fairly sure it is for most states.
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@Corbin123: That's ridiculous.
I am not responsible for anyone else's actions. If my dad runs up a boatload of debt before he dies, there's nothing I can do to stop him. His debt is his and his creditors' problem, not mine.
One stupid scenario might proceed as follows:
\"Your estranged father died.\"
\"Oh no!\"
\"In his will, he left you his $400,000 debt which leaves you bankrupt. The creditors will take everything you own and you'll have to start over.\"
\"What? That doesn't make any sense.\"
\"If you don't pay the debt, we'll exhume their corpse and sell it to Bill \"Cat Killer\" Frist to perform experiments on.\"
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\"My condolences. Will you be paying with credit or check?\"
hypothetical situation
I max out my credit card and take out as many loans as i can get.
I gift all the money/purchases to my children.
I die.
Do the banks and credit card companies get anything?
@k6richar: I think it depends on HOW you gift it. But if ownership is transferred prior to death then no, they don't get anything.
When my mother died what cash she had was all in an account that was set up as a joint account with me. Legally, because the account is joint with right of survivorship it is not part of the estate. (Which is good, as I needed it to pay for the funeral, etc.)
@k6richar:
As long as they are all unsecured loans they have no right to anything. A secured loan would be something with collateral, like a house, car, etc. They would be able to take the item that you placed as collateral.
Interesting - I got a letter from those lawyers this week about my mother's estate (she died in late January) and it EXPLICITLY states \"You are not personally liable for this debt\" and asks basically to know what the estate is going to do about the debt. I don't find that sleazy at all.
The first one who calls or writes me trying to get me to pay the debt though is going to have an unpleasant day.
It does not shock me that Weltman, Weinberg & Reis threaten and harass people into paying their dead relatives debts. People are grieving and not in their right state of mind and this scummy collection agency hits people when they are at their lowest. I have just had my first run-in with this disgusting company today in fact. Their collection agency called me with a spoofed number (I believe this is illegal) and stated that \"their law firm was hired on retainer to sue me for some debt\" that I do not owe! I tried to get some information about who the original creditor was, did their collection agency own this debt, etc, but he just kept asking strange questions like \"have I filed my taxes yet and if so, they will be garnished by their company\", and \"they are scheduled to take me to court on Feb 11th\".
First of all, I have never received any notice of a judgement or legal paperwork from this company. I had no idea who they were until today. I have been living out of the country for the last 16 years and recently moved back to take care of my elderly mother. I informed them that they most likely have the wrong person, but this guy kept going and going. It was comical because I know for a fact he has the wrong person, but tried to get me to tell him my SS number which of course I would not. I know I don't owe this debt as I don't even have a credit card in the US yet!!! Ha ha. I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with this company as they are obviously fraudulent.
Survivors never, ever, ever have to pay a dead person's debts with their own money. Period.
Now, the inheritance is *not* your own money until it is out of probate. As long as you understand that a debt collector may have legitimate rights to the inheritance during probate you should always explain to the debt collectors they have phoned the wrong person and to cease contacting you. Because you're a nice person explain to them they should phone the probate lawyer/judge and give the correct phone number and address.
This is the case in most parts of the world that read this site.
@shepd: I agree. While the law might \"vary,\" I would love to see one that required family members of decedents to pay debts out of their own pockets (compared to using the decedent's estate).
@shepd:
Do you even have to give that information? Can't you tell them that the person does not \"live\" (quit calling me) at this address/phone number and let them work for every cent they get by trying to figure out the rest? Why would you volunteer that info, are you required by law if you are executor, if not executor? no false statements...