var json_comments = new Array("
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TheMonkII
February 26, 2009 10:00 PM
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I have to say, I agree with M$ on this one. Nobody cared that she was a lesbian anymore than they care that I'm straight. In a place where kids are playing games its simply not a topic which should require discussion....First :)

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18 replies
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ViperBorg
February 27, 2009 1:01 PM
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@TheMonkII: No banhammer on that \"first\" huh?

Slick.

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Michael Walker
February 27, 2009 6:52 AM
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@TheMonkII:

Considering the last time I played on XboX Live I got called a \"Cum Guzzling Faggot Pirate\" I'd say that it is not a service for children.

Likewise I've seen dozens of people with names that are either plays on words like \"PssyLb\" or something similar.

It's not that they are against sexuality, its that they are against non-heterosexuality.

I have never heard of anyone getting banned for saying they do chicks (if they are male) and its VERY abundant all over the Xbox Live Experience :P

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Murph1908
February 27, 2009 1:11 PM
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@Michael Walker:
Do you report people like PssyLb? If you did, I'll bet MS made them change it.

I reported someone the other day. I bet that name isn't around long, and it had nothing to do with homosexuality. It was a guy who's name implied that he penetrated female anatomy.

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ScottRose
February 27, 2009 8:15 PM
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@Murph1908:

\"Do you report people like PssyLb?\"

I assume the Lb stands for 'pound'. I chuckled at that one...

Personally I don't care what someone's name is, online or off. But I can see that LezzyLezzerson is just as inappropriate as HeteroHunk or man4vag on a gaming service that has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I don't mean inappropriate from a \"that offends me\" POV, but rather that it's a gaming service, not a dating service, so you may as well leave sexuality out of it.

If Facebook or MySpace started censoring that sort of thing I'd have a moral objection to it.

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AtwoodBullfinch
February 27, 2009 4:56 PM
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@Murph1908:

you acutally reported someone? what a tool....

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Murph1908
March 3, 2009 4:52 PM
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@AtwoodBullfinch:
Damn right I did. His gamertag was offensive, his language was offensive, and we were playing a non M-rated game with kids on the line.

I curse like a sailor when I am with my friends. I enjoy some good porn, and the occasional trip to the nudie bar. I am not a prude in any way.

But I know how I should act around kids.

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snoop-blog
February 27, 2009 3:48 PM
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@Murph1908: Exactly you have to be reported for the more non-direct phrases or terms. There's no way to have all the different variations (including people who use numbers as letters) in their system. If you see something that is offensive and it is against the ToS, than report them. I doubt that guy will get reported to loving his wife, as if you were a lesbian but put, that you love your girlfriend, I doubt you would get reported there either. I have some good points at the end of my comments on page 2. But mainly I just wanted to re-state that if being gay is the only thing you have to express yourself, to describe who you are, then I feel sorry because I have never once used hetero as a description of who I am.

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NikkiSweet
February 27, 2009 3:59 PM
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Uh... I have a friend who's XBL gamertag is a variation on \"Straight as a Rainbow\"... That's been his gamertag since we played on the original xbox.

Using the excuse that \"straight has other non sexual connotations\" is stupid... gay has other non sexual connotations as well, it's just that the most common use of the word tends to be by close-minded idiots in a derogatory manner.

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snoop-blog
February 27, 2009 4:08 PM
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@NikkiSweet: I bet if you report him he will get kicked.

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ajlei
February 27, 2009 9:18 AM
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@Michael Walker: I've heard \"cum guzzling gutter slut\" several times but I think \"cum guzzling faggot pirate\" takes the cake.

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Ruadhan J McElroy
February 27, 2009 1:50 AM
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@TheMonkII:

Except that the XBox was designed for and marketed to adult players. Micro$oft should stick to the model they originally designed for it and enforce a community for fracking GROWN UPS.

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coren
February 26, 2009 11:47 PM
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@TheMonkII: Oh, is that why she got abuse heaped on her for being gay?

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ludwigk
February 26, 2009 10:51 PM
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@TheMonkII: The \"spare the children\" argument holds no merit. As long as homosexuality is considered some taboo subject that isn't acceptable to some segments of the population, we will never achieve social equality.

There is no age at which it is perceived inappropriate to teach children that a man and woman live together and have a family.

You can make an argument of some sort that XBL is not the right context for such topics, but if they are going to censor gamertag descriptions to that extent, then you should really just pick it from a list of ten or twelve preconstructed statements about your favorite soda or something (sponsored by Dr. Pepper).

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coolkiwilivin
March 2, 2009 3:25 PM
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@ludwigk: If the only games that were available were GTA. however there are a LOT of games that younger children can play. I have ZERO sympathy for this person. Yes I could say I love my wife but the connotations are totally different. Describing yourself as a Lesbian or Gay involves purely sexual orientation. If some guy put ,\"I banged 2 girls last night\" in their profile should just as out of line as what the OP did. Yes there are a lot of managed kids on Xbox live but that is NO excuse for the many kids who are being watched and guided by a parent. Maybe M$ should make an adult Xbox live. No rules about cussing, making ethnic or racial slurs, team killing and just move those who want to engage in that type of activity there.

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FrugalFreak
February 27, 2009 7:08 PM
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@ludwigk:

The quest for social equality seems to be one sided anyways.

Seek not to change those that need not to be changed.

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snoop-blog
February 26, 2009 11:20 PM
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@ludwigk: To me (a law student) I took this whole thing as it's okay to tell someone that you are a lesbian by use of the mic or text chat during the gameplay is fine, but to include it in your profile or tag is not okay. Which makes since if I call you a fag in the game, it will be pretty obvious i'm not trying to solicit anyone as opposed to putting it in my name it is not known if I am using that as a way to try to meet others and/or hook up.

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hegemonyhog
February 27, 2009 12:27 AM
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@snoop-blog: As another law student, it's a terrible policy and the point of it isn't to prevent people from hooking up.

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SteelersAreGo
February 27, 2009 2:49 AM
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@hegemonyhog: As a third law student, I agree with both of you.

And the gentleman above who would use \"I love my wife\" as a test is right: not only would nothing happen to him, if he was suspended for it, the furor would be far more than this lesbian discussion.

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AlteredBeast
February 26, 2009 10:35 PM
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@TheMonkII:


What if I put, in my profile \"I love my wife!\" and clearly have a male avatar. I can't imagine that causing my account to be banned, but a female avatar with \"I love my wife!\" sounds like it would be banned.

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everfade
February 26, 2009 10:25 PM
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@TheMonkII: Yes, think of the kids. Think of the kids playing in an environment where foul language abounds and calling each other gay and faggot is rampant.

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warf0x0r
February 26, 2009 10:34 PM
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@everfade: Have you been in these envoirnments, I get called N-this, f-that by people who cannot be more than 13 or 14 all the time.

Besides this wasn't in the context of spoken words it was in a textual profile. It isn't like a kid is going to read this and be like... she's a lesbian, maybe I'm a lesbian, maybe I should run away and become a pr0n star!

@Alexawesome: good point

Ultimately the OP should have had to change their profile, and should have reported people who harassed her to change it, if they aren't m$ they aren't the xbox live police.

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everfade
February 26, 2009 10:43 PM
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@warf0x0r: \"she's a lesbian, maybe I'm a lesbian, maybe I should run away and become a pr0n star!\" - That cracked me up.

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RandomHookup
February 27, 2009 2:30 AM
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@everfade: As a matter of fact, I'm feeling a bit lesbian-ish just from reading that.

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alexawesome
February 26, 2009 10:20 PM
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@TheMonkII: But do they ban people with the word \"straight\" in their name or profile...?

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JFetch
February 28, 2009 1:38 AM
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@alexawesome: Actually it is against policy to say you are gay, straight, or asexual. she wasn't banned either, she was suspended.

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Anonymous
February 28, 2009 1:36 AM
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@alexawesome: I Did get banned for a day for in my bio saying i'm a hetrosexual white male. Called up asked why they said the sex speech to me i changed next day i was back online playing so maybe not straight but hetrosexual will get you banned

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Sam Oldenburg
February 27, 2009 12:33 AM
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@alexawesome: The word straight has some sidely used definitions other than sexual orientation, where as gay and lesbian aren't quite the same.

I'm all for equal rights, but this is pretty ****ing obvious.

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sasper
February 26, 2009 10:32 PM
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@alexawesome: Yup. Did you read their terms of service? \" In regards to sexual orientation, for gamertags or profiles we do not allow expression of any type of orientation, be that hetero or other.\"

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hegemonyhog
February 26, 2009 11:22 PM
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@sasper: Which explains the hundreds of people with the tag \"ladiesman\" on XBL.

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TheThirstMutilator
March 1, 2009 1:23 PM
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@hegemonyhog: Being a ladies man is not necessarily sexual, unless you take the word \"sex\" to mean gender. Being a ladies man means that you connect really well with women. That could possibly mean you enjoy going to night clubs with a group of women.

Also, to the one who brought up \"I love my wife!\" that would be okay. \"I sleep with my wife!\" would be not okay

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Anonymous
March 1, 2009 9:44 PM
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@TheThirstMutilator: And sexual orientation isn't about sex either. Being a lesbian doesn't mean you're a woman who has sex with other women. It means you're a woman who loves other women (with whom you may, but not necessarily, have sex), exactly like the husband who says he loves his wife (with whom he may, but not necessarily, have sex).

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The Cynical Librarian
February 26, 2009 10:00 PM
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I'm going to edit my gamertag to point out how much I love my wife, on a regular basis and see how long MSOFT lets that go. I'll keep you updated.

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2 replies
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Scott 'Zeus' Christian
February 28, 2009 4:56 PM
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@gyroball: The point being? This argument is full of fail.

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Taylor Grandberg
March 6, 2009 7:14 AM
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@Scott 'Zeus' Christian: The point being that by telling people how much you love your wife, you are implying that you are hetero. But there again, it's not what you imply, it's what you actually say that counts. This girl could have said something along the lines of 'I have a lover named Melissa', and that would have implied she was lesbian without her expressly saying so.

There's a lot of ways you can say something without actually saying it.

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Anonymous
March 10, 2009 2:26 PM
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\"What you imply\" does count. If MS were to take their language on this literally, any mention of boyfriend, girlfriend, wife or husband would need to result in a ban:

>>
look, sound like, stand for, hint at, abbreviate, or insinuate content of a potentially sexual nature
>>

Girlfriend, boyfriend, husband or wife certainly \"stand for\" content of a \"potentially sexual nature\".

That's the trouble with far-reaching clauses like that - they go too far.

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The Cynical Librarian
February 26, 2009 10:00 PM
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Really should read \"I love my wife, on a regular basis\". Then see how...

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6 replies
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Scott 'Zeus' Christian
February 28, 2009 4:57 PM
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@gyroball: @ludwigk: Read the freakin response. It denounces ANY ORIENTATIONAL INFORMATION. THIS INCLUDES GAY AND STRAIGHT.

Seriously, do you people just skim s--t, or just pick out pieces you want and go from there?

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RvLeshrac
March 2, 2009 12:08 PM
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@Scott 'Zeus' Christian:


The point is to see if he gets suspended for putting the fact that he's straight into his profile.


The chances are pretty low.


It is obvious that you're the one with the comprehension issue here, as it has been stated multiple times that the goal is to see if they enforce the policy *without bias*, or if they simply target the homosexuals who are using Live.


We all make mistakes, but don't flame someone unless you're certain you know what they were saying.

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trujunglist
February 27, 2009 5:55 PM
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@StreamOfConsciousness:

Ugh, no kidding. I love it when people are having the incredibly rare decent conversation in a lobby and suddenly some guy comes on and starts yelling at them, ranting and raging for no reason other than he's a complete douchebag. The other half of the time they're screaming into the mic or being generally stupid in some way. There should be a way to prevent playing with anyone under X age (or anyone over X age I guess).

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Chantillian
February 27, 2009 3:28 PM
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There's always someone - like gyroball - who wants to push the envelope. I've never understood why. Just for grins? To entertain yourself? Seriously, I don't get it.

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ludwigk
February 26, 2009 10:40 PM
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@gyroball: (Nelson) Ha ha! You LOVE your wife! Why don't you MARRY her?! And have lots of babies! (/Nelson)

But on a more serious note, I think that this is a real cop out on Microsoft's part, and that expression of sexual orientation shouldn't be offensive or some kind of censored speech. Saying \"I'm gay\" should be a personal statement, and not be some sort of objectionable statement of a sexual nature.

Some people are very proud of being gay, or they overcame great hardships as a result of it, or just want to reach out to other gay gamers. I don't really care what someone's reason would be for putting that they're a lesbian in their gamertag, but it should be acceptable, or at the very least, considered harmless.

M$'s implicit suppression of homosexuality just adds to existing discrimination and intolerance. I could go on and on, but at the end of the day, we all have to pick our battles, blah, blah, there are probably more important things to complain about.

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JulesNoctambule
February 26, 2009 10:09 PM
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@gyroball: [insert joke here about how you love (nudge-nudge, say no more!) your wife on a regular basis]

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qcgallus
February 26, 2009 10:07 PM
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To be the thorn in the side, if you don't agree with the terms of service, don't participate in the service. It's a pretty simple equation.

What I want to know is where the lesbian thing came up. Granted, I don't have a 360 (behind the times, I know. PC FTW)nor have I played Xbox Live, but from my regular online gaming I have never come across \"[m] Pantless STRAIGHTGUY\" in counterstrike (pantless...the clan...)Did she put it in her profile? Unless it was relevant, it seems to me that most people can get an adequate gaming experience with no mention of sexuality.

I don't care one way or the other about sexuality, I'm just saying that if it's in the M$ ToS, and you get kicked, there's not much of a leg to stand on. What I do have a problem with is all the people who stalked her and called her \"fag\" who won't be found. If Xbox Live is going to ban her, ban them as well. The same ToS states that that's just as bad. There can't be a double standard here folks.

Wait, this is the world of consumers. Of course there can be!

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11 replies
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Anonymous
March 3, 2009 3:41 PM
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I would like to see anywhere in the story where it stated members have done that to said user. If you can copy+paste that to me, then I could see you calling double standards. I'm sure it does happen, but then again I'm sure Microsoft takes actions against people proven to have done so. When I see articles about people providing proof to microsoft that it has happend and their calls go unanswered, then by all means, call your double standards.

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RvLeshrac
March 2, 2009 12:17 PM
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@qcgallus:


There are communities of * Gamers (Straight, LGBT, $Religion, Atheist, Active/Retired/Veteran Military), [sarcasm] and they have this *really* annoying tendency to, you know, want to locate others within that community. [/sarcasm]


That said, there are plenty of websites out there which are purpose-built for locating other members in whatever \"community\" you want.


She violated the TOS, and the suspension is valid. But I don't think they go after the \"acceptable\" groups, ever. You're not supposed to mention a lot of things in your profile, and a two-second search on Live will give you almost nothing but Profile TOS violations. Even some of the \"highlighted\" gamertags have TOS violations in their profiles.


The issue people are having with it isn't one of \"is the suspension fair,\" but \"are the rules being applied to everyone,\" and I can safely say that the answer to the second question is a resounding 'no.'

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qcgallus
March 3, 2009 7:20 PM
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@RvLeshrac: You're absolutely right, and it's hypocritical. I really argue the ToS thing because I can, and because it is enforceable. The biggest problem I have here is that those people that followed her around will not be caught, and I think that online homophobics have chalked a victory. To me it's like arresting someone who had just got carjacked for having expired tags.

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Scott 'Zeus' Christian
February 28, 2009 4:54 PM
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@qcgallus: Agreed totally.

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nonsane
February 27, 2009 9:08 PM
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@qcgallus: The logic of take your business somewhere else works in a lot cases. but not this one.

If i purchase an xbox360 is there a terms of services that you read over before purchase? no. I'm not aware of any other business she can go by.

I choose a tag that identifies with me. Some people identify themselves with hobbies, pets, interests. In this case she chose lesbian to most identify with. If we only described ourselves with gaming related tags there would sure be a lot of tags with \"GameGuy2452452\" and similar.

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qcgallus
February 28, 2009 1:40 AM
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@nonsane: I think GameGuy2452452 is a great tag!

You're right in that there's no ToS to review before you purchase the 360, however you would have to review it (or skip ahead apparently) before you got *online* with Xbox Live. 2 seperate services.

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GoBobbyGo
February 26, 2009 10:30 PM
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@qcgallus:
I don't play these games. I know some people who do. But here's what I can see as one plausible scenario:

She puts the fact that she's female in her profile. She gets hit on. A lot. Which is probably annoying to anybody. She's also a lesbian, which makes it even more annoying. So she adds that she's a lesbian, so that at least the hitters-on know that she's not interested.

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Brazell
February 27, 2009 12:10 AM
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@GoBobbyGo: If she's concerned about getting unwanted attention, puting the word \"lesbian\" in her profile would only attract more unwanted attention. There are few things that 15-year-old gamers are more into than gamer-girls, and that is... gamer-girl-lesbians.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:36 PM
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@GoBobbyGo: A likely scenario...except all LIVE members have the option of how much info they display to people who are not on their friends list.

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Aidan Roche
February 26, 2009 10:12 PM
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I think that the issue is that gamers online use sexual orientation slang as insults, as well as racial slurs and... well you get the idea. I can't count the amount of times I've been insulted online in ways that would make Tarantino blush.

Microsoft's response has been to squelch any hint of anything that could be perceived as derogatory to any minority. It's really bad because the people Microsoft are aimed to protect from online insults, e-sults if you will, are in turn being silenced by Microsoft.

It's too bad they can't exercise common sense when reading over and censoring Xbox Live profiles.

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Anonymous
February 26, 2009 10:12 PM
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XBox Live has to be ban certain terms because they are mostly used in a derogatory manner. Commonly used euphemisms for gay and lesbian are also curse words, and can be used to insult gays and lesbians.

It's easier to block it all than have a person try to figure whether or not a tag is good or insulting.

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Patrick Henry
February 26, 2009 10:18 PM
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I reported this a defamation incident to GLAAD. If you don't care that it says gay in the profile, then it shouldn't bother you in the first place that it's there! It's just something that describes who we are!

If you want to ban that, then you should ban ANYTHING in the profile that isn't related to gaming. What if I find the fact that you have 2 kids offensive? Huh? I think you should be banned for putting that in your profile just as much me for saying \"I'm a 22 year old gay male in WA st, and I love the video game BIOSHOCK!!\"

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8 replies
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Anonymous
March 3, 2009 3:30 PM
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@Patrick Henry:

Live is a virtual world to play games that are sometimes based on but should have no relation to real life. A place to unload and forget about real live. It's not a dating service or a place to meet like minded people, if that's what you're looking for use a dating service.

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Scott 'Zeus' Christian
February 28, 2009 4:51 PM
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@Patrick Henry:Tell me, what's the point of proclaiming your orientation? It serves no purpose and has no bearing on your gaming experience. If you don't like their TOS, tough s--t. It isn't discriminatory, because it clearly states that ANY orientation information is bannable. This includes anything about being a hetero.

You need to grow up. Sexual orientation and familial information are two different things. Don't attempt to use slippery slope arguments in this matter.

She was dead wrong for putting that information in her profile; a clear violation of Microsoft's TOS. However, inversely, the antagonists were MORE wrong for harassing her and shouting slurs at her. All parties are at fault in this matter.

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Brazell
February 27, 2009 12:05 AM
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@Patrick Henry: No, a videogame network is not the place for us to be talking about our sexual orientation, whether we are gay, straight, transgendered, or whatever else. Especially when networks like XBL are so flooded with sexual discrimination by players. To my understanding, Microsoft does not allow you to self-describe yourself as a \"24 y-o sexually straight\" player, either. However, saying \"I'm a straight gamer\" in a gaming context, especially for sports games, usually means that you 'don't cheese,' and has nothing to do with sexual orientation.

For what it's worth, Microsoft responds to cases of sexual aggravation on their network better than most other service providers. That they would get heat from the GLBT community on this, when they go out of their way to protect that community, is ridiculous.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 12:11 AM
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@MichaelBrazell: Honestly, that's like saying that since some people insult each other with the N-word, nobody can mention their race. They're just protecting us after all, right?

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:40 PM
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@Patrick Henry: Normally I side with the OP here...but your logic is completely flawed.

I have been a LIVE member for a long time and see absolutely no necessity for this type of information on a profile. And no, MS did not put this policay forth to simply discriminate against a particular group...even if it appears that way on the surface.

In fact it seems to me she put it there specifically to get some reaction regarding her sexual orientation.

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Yossarian
February 26, 2009 10:35 PM
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@Patrick Henry: \"What if I find your love of collecting mini cars offensive?\" You are free to take your business to a company that manages profiles in a way you find more satisfactory.

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Patrick Henry
February 26, 2009 10:56 PM
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@sasper:

You wouldn't because its common for people to automatically think you're straight. Because most of society is. But go ahead and put it, it's redundant. Microsoft should ban you just as they ban gay people.

@Yossarian:

Or, I can try and change a clearly discriminatory policy from a company who offers services I use and enjoy. Not to mention, I can't play online games on another system easily. I don't like PS3's.

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Yossarian
February 26, 2009 11:21 PM
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@Patrick Henry: And when MS says, \"Thanks for the input, but we're pretty happy with the way we manage profiles,\" then what? Drag in the lawyers to try to force MS to impose your view of how profiles should be managed? But you've already headed down that road, right?

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Scott 'Zeus' Christian
February 28, 2009 4:53 PM
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@Yossarian: EXACTLY. It feels as if they're trying to impose their views on others, which isn't exactly endearing their cause to anyone.

What should be going on is demanding the harassers to be punished, and enforcing the TOS on straight people as well.

Sadly, some people are too wrapped up in their own slants and martyrdom complexes to grasp the concept of being WRONG.

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sasper
February 26, 2009 10:34 PM
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@Patrick Henry: Time for me to start adding 'STRAIGHT' to all of my online profiles. Wait... no one does that except for AOL chat rooms.

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Brazell
February 26, 2009 10:18 PM
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I actually agree with Microsoft's terms here. They don't allow you to state your sexual orientation or anything sexual in your profile. It's also worth noting that this is done to protect people from being harassed and, also, to prevent potentially offensive language. It's not because Microsoft is against the LGBT community, it is precisely because they do not want language depicting a sexual orientation to be used in a demeaning way, explicitly, in gamer profiles or gamer tags; ie, \"John12345 is gay,\" or \"Jimbo456 is a f4g\" is banned, and with good reason. If that also means that I can't put, in my profile, \"I am gay,\" even if I am a homosexual, then too bad for me.

Now, I am sure that a lot of folks define themselves based on their sexual orientation, especially if you're proud of it, so coming up with a username that celebrates your sexuality may be something that you do. Microsoft doesn't think that their gaming service is the avenue for you to celebrate your sexuality. Frankly, given the level of gay-bashing that already exists on XBL and in gaming in general, I think that this is a _good_ thing.

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9 replies
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Pixelantes Anonymous
February 27, 2009 4:10 PM
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@MichaelBrazell: \"They don't allow you to state your sexual orientation or anything sexual in your profile.\"

Really?

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fatcop
February 27, 2009 2:51 AM
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@MichaelBrazell: I agree. You do not have first amendment protections on privately owned networks. As we are so often reminded of here.

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RvLeshrac
March 2, 2009 12:21 PM
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@fatcop:


In this case, you do have certain legal and constitutional protections. It just happens that they aren't currently extended to sexuality. If, as was mentioned, you replace \"gay\" with one race and \"straight\" with another race, you have *exactly* the same situation, only now it has become a legal issue.

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Michael Walker
February 27, 2009 6:54 AM
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@fatcop: However its only acceptable when its sexuality. Anytime you ban people because of Race there is a shitstorm so large it threatens to consume all humanity.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 2:28 AM
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@MichaelBrazell: Yes, but the obvious problem here is MS saying you can't put anything sex related anywhere, and yet people have gamer tags that suggest straight connotations of sex and are not harrased nor banned.

This is like saying its not ok to put Black in your profile, because it has something to do with race, but someone has WhiteMan as their name isn't banned in the same fashion.

Its the SAME DISCRIMINATION. This isn't the 60's anymore people - lets get equal on ALL FRONTS.

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Repique
February 27, 2009 1:45 AM
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@MichaelBrazell: Except, the word aside, sexual orientation is not about sex. You can never have sex with anybody and still have a sexual orientation.

I can harass people with all kinds of language. Should anything that can be used to insult people be banned? You're going to run very short of allowable words, there.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:41 PM
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@MichaelBrazell:I agree completely....plus the amount of gay bashing is beyond ridiculous.

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Michael Walker
February 27, 2009 6:53 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness:

You don't have to be gay on Xbox Live to get called it. You just have to be better than the other person playing.

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Bethaners
February 26, 2009 10:19 PM
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Well gosh, that's interesting. Because I just logged onto xbox live's website and found a user named \"hetero\"

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2 replies
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Ratty
February 27, 2009 1:44 AM
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@Bethaners: Unless it's heterosexual, there's a lot of things \"hetero\" applies to.

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Bethaners
February 26, 2009 10:19 PM
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Here's the link for \"hetero\" [i40.tinypic.com]

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Patrick Henry
February 26, 2009 10:25 PM
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@bigbee79:

Foudn him. he's going to be so banned when I get through with the complaint form! If they don't ban him, I think that GLAAD is going to have a very interesting case.

I also found ladiesman what else can we find?

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:36 PM
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@Ptrck Hnry: nd y wndr why y'r mt wth hstlty n th ntrnt.

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cjones27
February 27, 2009 5:56 AM
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@Patrick Henry: So you're trying to end victimization and harassment by... engaging in victimization and harassment? Gotcha.

Hey! I've got an idea! I'm gonna hunt down a bunch of people with \"gay\" in their title and report them!

Or would that be discriminatory?

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Rugbydan
February 26, 2009 11:55 PM
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@Patrick Henry:

Some words from a wise man:

Take a Chill Pill.

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qcgallus
February 26, 2009 10:39 PM
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@Patrick Henry: We could also try to kind \"ladykiller\" and \"peter69,\" but the thing is that neither of these explicitly state something of a sexual nature. What if \"hetero\" is short for \"heterogeneous?\" Obviously that is sexual (/sarcasm).

We can do 2 things. We can witch hunt everybody that has a sexual tag, and waste our time doing that in an act of seeking reparations, or we can postulate the ways that this could be avoided while leaving sexuality as a descriptor.

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Shaftoe
February 26, 2009 10:20 PM
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I go along with MS on this as well. the truth is that XBL is available for all ages and so therefore all public statements should bear that in mind.
Stating your orientation is not appropriate for the little kiddies. It ain't facebook.
Having said that I would be curious to see if OP got her account reinstated after she fixed her profile.

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Shadowman615
February 27, 2009 4:47 AM
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@Shaftoe: One of the problems seems to be that parents don't want their kids to hear the word gay or find out about that stuff. So they try to shelter them and never talk about it. And even go far as to complain in a situation where their kids might accidentally find out something like that.

But it doesn't work; the kids find out about it anyway -- from their peers at school or TV or whatever. And they only learn to mock it.

What I'm getting at, is the blatant bigotry towards homosexuals amongst teenagers and even pre-teens in forums like XBox Live is often a direct result of their parent's failed attempts to protect them from it. Sure, in some cases the bigotry was actually passed down directly. But in other cases, the kids only learned from their parents' actions that this was something to hide or fear.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 2:30 AM
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@Shaftoe: Yes, and in order to save the children, shouldn't they also get rid of info like gamer69 or bigman420 or other illegal or sexually connotative gamer information - oh wait, its straight so they don't care - and you right-wingers don't scream about SAVE THE CHILDREN unless its something you're afraid of, like equal rights for everyone.

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donopolis
February 27, 2009 3:05 PM
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@Oranges w/ Cheese:
the 69th gamer in a group of likeminded people and a very large say 420lb gamer are also not statements of a sexual nature.

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Bethaners
February 26, 2009 10:26 PM
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@Shaftoe: Would it be appropriate for a straight male gamer to say in their profile that they're a married man with a beautiful wife and 3 kids? That's stating their orientation. Is that ok?

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donopolis
February 27, 2009 3:03 PM
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@Bethaners:
I have a best friend that is married with two kids and GAY.

The statement of being married with 2 kids does not state sexuality.

You assume too much.

Don

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Brazell
February 27, 2009 12:08 AM
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@Bethaners: I have a hard time believing that Microsoft would ban somebody for saying \"I'm a married man with a beautiful husband and three kids.\" They specifically request people to remove statements of sexuality, not descriptions of their familial or relationship status.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 7:31 PM
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@MichaelBrazell: So the part they are banning people for is stating an orientation, rather then skating around the term, in much the same way that one can be in trouble for saying fornicate in a term that a 6 year old will understand.

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Patrick Henry
February 26, 2009 10:28 PM
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@bigbee79:

Exactly. No, it's not okay, if they're going to ban people who put they're gay in their profile. They shouldn't be allowed to put ANYTHING in their profile, unless its related to gaming. What if I find your love of collecting mini cars offensive?

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frodolives35
February 26, 2009 11:01 PM
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@Patrick Henry: You are right they should not ban it. Its not like all the teenagers wont call everyone f$g ,D$ke or ni$$er anyway. Alot of people I know just disable the voice option because of all the foulmouth kids.

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Notsewfast
February 26, 2009 10:25 PM
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I didn't realize how big of a story this had become.

Needless to say I was surprised to see the word 'lesbian' come across the news ticker on my Bloomberg Terminal, a screen that usually just updates news on lawsuits and earnings calls.

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everfade
February 26, 2009 10:32 PM
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Can we stop using the excuse about kids being on Xbox Live? Live is nothing but foul language, name calling and racial slurs so give me a break.

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behrens
March 4, 2009 5:17 PM
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@everfade: \"Can we stop using the excuse about kids being on Xbox Live? Live is nothing but foul language, name calling and racial slurs so give me a break.\"

THANK YOU. I'm relatively new to Live and don't really use my account for that much gaming (I keep it up for Netflix and other features mostly), but I was destroying some little jerks in NBA Live 09 the other day, and got a lot of \"fag\" comments over the headset, and then then one of them bragged about how much marijuana resin he had boiled out of his pipe ... that's pretty much been par for the course in my online experiences, although I will say the Tiger Woods 09 community is very respectful. Personally, I am deeply offended by the use of gay slurs, but I'll stand by and listen to drug talk all day and not bat an eye. Other people's preferences are going to be different, and that's going to be acted out on the service, which brings together people with different moralities and different thresholds for offensiveness.

My point in all this is, like everfade said, there's no way to eliminate hate speech, swear words, drug talk and the like from Xbox Live so, given that condition, it seems outright homophobic to ban users for describing part of their identity to the community. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't imagine there's a policy against one putting his or her racial identity in there. How is this different, and what does that say about the Live community, and about the M$ staffers condoning this hypocrisy?

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Michael Walker
February 27, 2009 6:55 AM
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@everfade: My Thoughts exactly.

Xbox Live is a sneeze below 4chan.

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Petra
February 26, 2009 10:38 PM
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One of my neighbors is named Gay. Apparently it used to be a common name, like Bertha or Agnes. She's in her early 50's and doesn't actually play videogames...but still.

You can bet that Microsoft isn't booting anyone who identify as \"straight\" in their profiles.

If you're offended by homosexuals and 'don't want your kids to see that stuff', then don't let them play online. Try to sort your holier-than-though standards, since they're probably playing gory games anyways (seriously, there are parents out there who think it's okay for their kid to hack away at people or shoot them in videogames, but not for someone to say IN THEIR PROFILE that they're lesbian?) Not hating on violent games here, my husband plays Deadspace to his little heart's content, just saying that I don't see the point in people being that picky and choosy about what offends them.

As South Park puts it, \"Horrific, deplorable violence is okay, as long as people don't say any naughty words!\" (or disclose any sexual preference that isn't straight!)

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 6:39 PM
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@Petra:

It is sad how ignorant people have truly become about problems pertaining to this and the biosed(lolz) garbage that is flung around, I have plenty of friends that were definetly \"Straight Connotations\" that were banned fro xbox live for it, I back microsoft up on that 100% It is to be a FAMILY SERVICE for playing video games, Any talk about Sex, Drugs, Or anything else illegal is not suitable for a Family Enviroment. Gay Or Straight, People are getting banned, and to sit there and say oh woe is me, only gays are getting beaten down by the man is just plain slander and full of errancy. I doubt she was very quiet about here sexual nature and orientation, most people wouldnt submit a ticket for any jerk on the internet, Someone that is foul and disgusting are the people that get banned. If they have GAY, Straight, Any kind of sexual Reference, They are breaking TERMS OF SERVICE And are more than likely going to get banned. People that sit back and dont stir up problems and try to pick fights dont get banned becuase no one will send in a ticket for them, Do you seriously think everyone out there is going to read a persons profile like some creepy stalker. Seriously, get over yourself. Its how they act in game that defines them. She OBVIOUSLY was being crude and disgusting, hence the mass flood of tickets for the obviously crude, foul, and disgusting person that she is. I believe this will only damage the GLBT, If i were them i would not back someone that is a zealot.
If someone were to state Disgusting and crude items pertaining to a Straight orientation, what do you think would happen... Same thing... This is not a singling out, This is a protection of family areas from any form of Sex, Drugs or anything else illegal

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RandomHookup
February 27, 2009 2:34 AM
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@Petra: I know a man named Gay. His son played in the NFL.


And Trivial Pursuit always claimed \"Lesbosian\" was the correct term.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 1:41 AM
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@Petra: Actually they are and have banned people who identify as sexually straight. However, as has been mentioned, referrring to yourself as \"a straight gamer\" has an entirely different meaning when referring to gaming; it refers to a lack of dodgy tactics i.e. cheesing. And before ANYBODY starts squealing about the supposed \"double standard\" there - straight's original contextual meaning refers to any line between two points with a constant even gradient: \"a straight line\".

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 2:04 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: and \"gay\" means happy, and lesbian a resident of Lesbos.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: 'm nt th n hvng cry bt dbl stndrds.

Cry hrdr, fggt.

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Shadowman615
February 27, 2009 4:57 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: Why all the personal attacks in your posts in this article? You've pointed out that you aren't crying, sure, but you're the only person who has used both the words \"faggot\" and \"dyke\" to slander people in this thread.

That's not appropriate here, or anywhere else for that matter.

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Michael Walker
February 27, 2009 6:57 AM
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@alliebean: Fun sidenote, back in Greek times it Lesbos was known for its Lesbians :). As in the Sexual kind (on top of the obvious fact that people there are called Lesbian).

That's I assume why it became the coinage for the female homosexuality.

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Geblah187
February 26, 2009 10:48 PM
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I've had a similar issue with xbox live, and also with Facebook: my last name is Gay. No, literally, it's \"Gay.\"

Usually an email or a quick call clears this sort of thing up, but you'd be surprised how many places online won't accept my name. I'd not have this problem if I were in Ireland, i'm sure ;)

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Tyler Waldman
February 27, 2009 3:26 AM
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@Geblah187: Do people have trouble getting your name straight?

Thank you, I'm here all week, tip your waitress, try the veal, etc.

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PillowTalk
February 26, 2009 10:55 PM
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Why do people always come out of the woodwork saying that the concept of homosexuality should be kept away from kids eyes? There's always a volley of commenters saying something like \"kids play on there, people shouldn't have to explain\". Seriously folks, the fact that you're insinuating that the very concept of homosexuality is somehow unsavoury and we need to protect our children from it shows your true colours more than anything. Besides, the EARLIER you explain what homosexuality is to a child, the more likely they'll be accepting of it (since it's not something being sprung on them as new and \"weird\", or different) and the better it is for society. And don't even try to tell me it's a difficult concept to explain without it getting awkward, all you have to say is that homosexuality is when two people of the same gender love each other very much and want to spend their lives together.

Anyway, people who say XBox Live is for kids have obviously never been on it, because it's pretty much the worst hive of racism, bigotry, and sexism you could ever find. If you really want to protect your child, do NOT let them play unsupervised on XBox Live.

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alliebean
February 26, 2009 11:04 PM
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Here's the thing. There are many, many people here talking about how your sexual orientation shouldn't matter, shouldn't factor into anything, etc. That's all fine and dandy, but I'd guess the majority of you are heterosexual.

It's *assumed* that you're heterosexual unless you state otherwise. You don't have to mention it or say anything about it, because if you're not identifying as \"other\", you're automatically lumped into the mainstream heterosexual category.

Sexual orientation is an important part of human identity. Those who think it isn't are the ones who don't have to identify themselves because they have heterosexual privilege.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:46 PM
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@alliebean:But what is the point of broadcasting your sexual orientation to complete strangers over a gaming service?? What exactly does it achieve?? Plus I don't think LIVE is type of place alot of people go to hook up.

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berribrand
February 27, 2009 1:06 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: It's for establishing some kind of common ground, not necessarily for hook-ups. Although, I'm pretty sure some heterosexual boys on LIVE have asserted their male-ness to females at some point in order to do just that. But I digress.

I don't think you realize how often heterosexuals broadcast their sexuality on a regular and consistent basis. Every time you talk about your wife/husband, that's broadcasting your sexuality. Frankly, I get tired of being consistently and continuously subjected to the heteronormative point of view.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@brrbrnd: Wll y bttr gt sd t t, bcs tht's th wy th wrld s. Y cn spnd yr lf scrmng, rgng gnst th dyng f th lght r y cn ccpt wht S nd dl wth t.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:52 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: That's pretty funny. I mean, if that's the case, why do we even have Consumerist?

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: Sppsdly s ppl cn cmmnt n rtcls. Wht 'm sng s rdcls btchfght vr th ntrnts thgh. nd y knw wht? vn f y wn th rtrdd rcs:

Y'R STLL FCKNG RTRD.

r n yr cs, rtrdd dyk. Sm dffrnc rlly.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 2:39 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: Wow, ok hold up right there. See, its people like you who are the problem. People like you with tiny little minds, too afraid to see past their own inadequacies and accept other people for who they are.

Just the fact that you had to JUSTIFY the fact that you have a girlfriend, and that she \"loves your cock\" leads me to believe you are not confident about your sexuality.
So let me guess, you're a virgin and you have a small cock. Ok, now we're clear.

You, Mr. Nathan Sinclair are a stuck up bigoted idiot. It's people like *you* who need to wake up and see \"how the world is.\" Don't think you can hide behind your little fence of hatred for much longer. What do you think all these people who identify as \"gay\" are just making it up? Do you think they're pretending for your benefit?

WAKE THE FUCK UP and realize that everyone is different - we're all HUMAN BEINGS, and not everyone is as afraid of the world as you are.

I pity you. Truly.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 2:01 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: Well now, aren't we just all lovely. You know what's funny? I never once in this thread even said what my orientation was, I simply said I belong to the LGBT community.

But keep it coming, Nathan. You're just proving my point, and doing a rather good job of it too. :)

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: Cn't. Gtt hp n flght t rl bch wth my grlfrnd. My strght grlfrnd. Wh lvs my cck.

knw y'r brnng n th nsd nd t MKS

M

LGH.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: Tht's wht sd. D y hv cmprhnsn s wll s pplctn f lgc sss?

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 2:18 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: Not at all, I just don't understand why I'd be burning on the inside. Does your girlfriend say she's burning on the inside? If so, you two should probably go get that checked out.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 2:38 AM
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@RandomHookup: That might be helpful if I was the one experiencing such sensations. I feel fine, but thanks for the suggestion. :) Nathan, on the other hand...

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cjones27
February 27, 2009 6:14 AM
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@berribrand: \"Heteronormative point of view\" - what a crock of shit. So since gays make up 10% of the population, we have to bend over backwards and change our entire society so they don't get their precious feelings hurt?

Grow some skin, harden the fuck up, and stop bitching.

Don't play the victim - if you want to end discrimination, then teach tolerance.

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idip
April 7, 2009 2:44 PM
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@cjones27: That's actually quite ironic coming form a poster with an avatar name of cjones27, with an african american avatar.

I'm sure the same thing you said was said 50-60 years ago when people were working for civil rights for African Americans.

It's not about our feelings. It's about treating people with respect and fairness. No one wants special rights for homosexuals, homosexuals are NOT asking for special rights, they just want the SAME RIGHTS as everyone else.

*shakes head* Slaves were a very intergal part of the economic (slave trade) and manufacturing (manual labor, cotton picking etc) processes of this country when it was first established.

Just imagine if when African Americans started to recieve fair and equal treatment that it was taken away and instead they received a:

\"So since African Americans make up minority of the population, we have to bend over backwards and change our entire society so they don't get their precious feelings hurt?

Grow some skin, harden the fuck up, and stop bitching.\"

I seriously doubt you would have just accepted that.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 6:46 PM
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@cjones27: When you have to justify why you should be granted equal rights and allowed to exist, well ... herein lies the problem. People who are allies of any oppressed group of people do not place the burden of equality on the oppressed.

What berribrand is talking about is the fact that since the majority of people are heterosexual, the heterosexuality is implied in everything. When you fill out a form that asks for husband and wife, even where same-sex marriages are legal, that's the heteronormative point of view that permeates society. When you disallow someone from stating their orientation, while allowing all manner of statements of heterosexuality, it's the same thing. Preventing one group from distinguishing themselves does not automatically make the playing field neutral, it simply takes away the voices of the oppressed.

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alliebean
February 26, 2009 11:49 PM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: What's the point of saying anything about yourself over a gaming service? I'd imagine it's so people you play with, or those you meet along the way, can learn more about who is on the other side of the screen. Whether it's your age, race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, favorite food to eat, whatever, it's relevant in describing who you are.

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christopherscott
February 26, 2009 11:06 PM
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Sexual orientation has nothing to do with gaming. If you want to advertise yourself as being gay, or trans gender, there are many social networking sites for you to express yourself. Microsoft runs a social gaming service, and chooses to adopt a \"Don't ask, Don't tell\" policy. It's their service; they have every right to do so.

In a perfect world, being gay would be as culturally accepted as being a sports fan, and teenagers wouldn't feel the need to be disrespectful and immature towards others. Too bad we live in the real world, where everyone is both entitled to be an idiot [i]and[/i] have an opinion, regardless of age or character.

People cannot become antagonists if you deny them a plot for their character. That's how Microsoft does it, that's how the Military does it.. and it has worked out pretty well thus far.

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RedSonSuperDave
February 27, 2009 1:50 AM
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@christopherscott: An Iron Man reference? Excellent.

And just so I'll be on topic, I'd like to point out that the \"Report this player\" function of Live doesn't actually DO anything, it just says that it does something so that people feel better about being called a (racial slur) or (sexual preference insult).

M$ only seems to care about profiles, not the literal MILLIONS of times per day that violations of their terms of service occur on Live.

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berribrand
February 27, 2009 1:13 AM
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@christopherscott: I disagree with you completely. You cannot ignore the problem away. You stated in a perfect world, being gay would be as normal (accepted?) as being a sports fan. This can only happen if people actually know and are in contact with other gay people. How can that happen if you just disallow anyone to state their orientation on a public post, such as a profile?

There is no way to reach this \"perfect world\" that you described under the MS policy, which simply bans and forbids any posting of orientation.

Furthermore, there is debate on the merits of Don't Ask Don't Tell in the military. I am of the view that it has not worked and only undermined out military readiness. A lot of Arabic specialists have been dishonorably discharged because of DADT. It's bad policy for the military (the United Kingdom realized this already) and its bad policy for any company that believes itself to be progressive.

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christopherscott
February 27, 2009 12:43 AM
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@Patrick Hurst: Apparently Consumerist is capable of creating a time-bending reality distortion field, because somehow I replied to your post before you even posted it! Please read my above reply to your post. :)

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alliebean
February 26, 2009 11:12 PM
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@christopherscott: The problem with that view is that it just assumes everyone is straight. It doesn't remove sexuality from the equation, just anything outside of mainstream sexuality. It's discriminatory.

And gender identity is NOT the same as sexual orientation! Sheesh. Do you think you should also be prohibited from stating your race or gender altogether?

Of course, it doesn't mean Microsoft has to change it, it just means they're supporting bigotry.

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donopolis
February 27, 2009 3:14 PM
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@alliebean:
It dies not assume everyone is straight. This stance assumes that everyone is neuter. non-sexual. not sexually oriented.

You are assuming that everyone who doesn't say \"I'm Gay\" is in fact straight and that in itself is a pretty limited view.

D-

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 6:50 PM
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@donopolis: No, I'm saying that heterosexual people have all manner of ways of stating their sexuality without saying \"I'm straight\", whereas gay and lesbian people do not. A non-sexual situation is not possible when you know gender and can use gender-related terms in your tag, motto, bio, etc., because it's so often in our society that gender and sexuality go hand in hand.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: Wll wht ls r thy gng t d, ssm vryn s gy? T'S TH SF CHC T SSM HTRSXLTY S THT S TH MJRTY SXL PRFRNC.

'm strtng t ht th ntrnt - vry whngr thnks thy hv rght t 15 mnts f msry bt hw \"prsctd\" thy r. Myb f y gt rnd t shttng th fck p nc n whl ppl wld b mr ccptng f y. nstd y hv t mk t rtrdd pltcl gm.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:55 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: Wow. Classy. You do realize that with thinking like yours, the civil rights movement never would've happened?

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christopherscott
February 27, 2009 12:37 AM
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@alliebean:
No, it does not assume everyone is straight. It removes sexual orientation from the equation. I think it's unfair to say that, because there is a medium where sexual orientation is not discussed, that I(myself) automatically assume everyone is straight. That is NOT true.

You are right though, I didn't mean to say trans gender, that was a mistake on my part. Trans 'gender' is a change in gender identity, and not specific to sexuality. What I should have said was trans sexual, in the sense that you assume a different gender for sexual purposes. That was my mistake. :-)

I don't think it's bigotry. They are making sexual orientation a non issue. Remember this is a service populated by 13yr old children, abused by negligent parents that do not wish to raise their own kids. Microsoft does not want to become a political forum for cultural differences within our nation. They just want to focus on being a gaming service.

@Patrick Hurst:
Yes, I did. I know several people whom have served within the Military, some are still active, some are gay, and they don't even try to hide it.

The Military is not your mommy, and they are not there to offer a forum for deep cultural discussions. Their job is training you; To serve and kill for your country. If something comes up that does not involve those two things, the military have a *zero* tolerance policy against it.

The purpose of the \"Don't ask, Don't tell\" policy isn't to kick every gay person out of service. They are simply reserving the power to do so. Most military personnel do not care if you're gay, as long as you don't act like a jackass about it. However, the policy doesn't protect you from another person being a jackass about your homosexuality, and it isn't supposed to, fair or not. It is a cultural problem.

Hetero is the status quo. It's fine if you don't agree with it, I don't either. However the military has a job to protect our rights as citizens of this country, at the expense of your rights as a soldier. If you cannot accept this sacrifice, then don't join the military. If you want this policy to change, then start a cultural revolution. Women started a revolution in the workforce. African Americans started a revolution on the bus. Feel free to start your own revolution, just not in the military.

Microsoft is essentially stating the same thing. The company doesn't care if you're gay, but if you advertise your sexuality, then you take the risk of having somebody else complain. Microsoft isn't in the business of gay rights, they're in the business of babysitting adolescent kids while their parents buy games and pay for online service. Feel free to start your own revolution, just not on XBox Live.

I know some would argue they are also in business to help mature gamers connect together and enjoy multiplayer gaming as a whole, but I think that's just a side-job for when they're not running an online daycare service.

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SunnyLea
February 27, 2009 4:46 AM
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@christopherscott: \"If you want this policy to change, then start a cultural revolution. Women started a revolution in the workforce. African Americans started a revolution on the bus. Feel free to start your own revolution, just not in the military.\"

\"Microsoft isn't in the business of gay rights, they're in the business of babysitting adolescent kids while their parents buy games and pay for online service. Feel free to start your own revolution, just not on XBox Live.\"

Dude. That doesn't make any sense. At all.

I mean, the bus is just in the business of giving passengers a ride from point A to point B. Feel free to start your own revolution. Just not on the bus.

The lunch counter is just in the business of selling sandwiches to white people. Feel free to start your own revolution, just not at the lunch counter.

You have to start in exactly those places because that is where the discrimination is occurring. I mean declaring you're gay and proud at the local gay bar isn't really going to start anything, is it?

Do you see this?

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Haroon Piracha
February 27, 2009 4:03 AM
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@christopherscott: Ok, here is the problem ... You can't say that the 'don't ask don't tell' policy is solid because believe it or not, Obama is going to remove that policy... Just think of the reasons why he would remove it. I still like the Onions reason for why we have the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy, because the military wants to protect the gays and keep them away from harms way hahaha.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:44 AM
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@christopherscott: Transsexuality is identifying as a different sex from what you were assigned at birth. Being transgender is identifying as a different gender than what you were assigned at birth. The former is the parts, the latter is society's role for you. Neither has anything to do with sexual orientation or sexual behavior.

With that said, you CAN'T make it a non-issue. It's an intrinsic part of human identity. The majority of people are heterosexual. If you want to identify yourself or distinguish yourself in some way from the heterosexual masses, you have to explicitly state that you're gay or lesbian. We like to have friends who share our feelings and experiences, so it makes sense that we want to actually identify ourselves. Removing the mention of sexuality doesn't remove sexuality, it just defaults back to heteronormative assumptions.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:51 PM
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@alliebean: Again...what does sexual orientation have to do with playing a game online against strangers??

I can promise you that there is a long list of words MS won't allow on profiles...and not all of them are related to sexual orientation. They tend to be words that carry negative/discriminatory connotations. It seems to me that they are in fact attempting to curb discrimination.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 12:05 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: It doesn't have anything to do with playing a game. It has to do with describing yourself in an area meant for use in describing yourself and your interests. Can you proclaim your race? Your gender? Your age? Your name? Your occupation? Your favorite food? Your favorite type of animals? Would you state that any of these things are off-limits? They're all about identifying who you are as a person. If you are heterosexual, you don't have to announce your sexuality to anyone because it's assumed.

The problem is that Microsoft is not allowing people to differentiate themselves from the mainstream, but only as far as sexual orientation is concerned. Saying \"I like girls\" or \"I like guys\" is not obscene or sexual in the least, and there's no reason why it should be inappropriate, since it will be assumed that if you do not state it, you're heterosexual.

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Stephmo
February 27, 2009 1:14 AM
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@alliebean: Alrighty - do you know what you're supposed to put in an XBox Live profile? It's not a HUGE free-form profile you fill out. Perhaps I can help out and maybe you can get an idea of how LIMITED the profile really is (and how MS really is trying to keep you in the gamer box):

1. Gamertag - Your name
2. XBox Live Gamer Zone - you pick from 4 pre-selected zones that describe your playstyle (Recreation, Pro, Family, Underground)
3. Gamer Picture - yes, your picture which must be selected from the Microsoft library
4. Motto - 21 characters that describe you
5. Name - an alternative nick name or your real name
6. Location - where you're from
7. Bio - 500 characters to say whatever you like

The only required elements are 1, 2 & 3. Everything else is optional. I went through the 46 people on my friend list and no one is using the 500 word bio - I only recall it being used a handful of times simply because most folks probably won't log onto xbox.com later to fill in the whole thing (you do your profile the first time with your controller and no keyboard). Note - there's not even a box for gender, race or relationship status!

THAT being said, the 500-word bio isn't immediately visible on LIVE - but the 21-letter motto is. I can get \"Lesbian Gamer 4 Real!\" in 21 characters no problem.

So - before everyone thinks Live is all about trying to share all of this personal information, it's not. It's about getting enough information out there so you can start a freaking guild. For if you know someone's location, you have a rough idea of what hours they'll play.

I thought I'd throw that out there before everyone continues to spew as if they use the service and gets the wrong idea of what constitutes a profile in the XBox world.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:45 AM
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@Stephmo: News flash, some people use stuff in ways differently than you use them. Just because you don't use your bio or your motto to say something important about yourself and non-game related doesn't mean others don't.

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christopherscott
February 27, 2009 6:03 AM
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@alliebean:
I don't proclaim to be the Webster's definition of transsexual, but in Southern California, transsexual carries more sexual implications than just trans gender. XBox Live doesn't even allow you to specify your own gender, let alone your sexual orientation. It is something you have to advertise in your profile. Microsoft holds the right to moderate your actions if it becomes an issue for another player.

@RedSonSuperDave:
I was hoping someone would notice the reference. ;)

@Haroon Piracha:
If Obama feels that the military is ready to remove that policy, it's his decision. There are reasons for the policy, although that is a whole other discussion.

@SunnyLea:
Of course it doesn't make sense from your point of view. You don't own the bus or the sandwich shop. Microsoft doesn't want you to use their service to challenge cultural thinking about homosexuality. They would rather you just use their service to play games. They have every right to feel that way, because it is their service.

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SunnyLea
February 28, 2009 1:20 AM
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@christopherscott:

But wait. I'm not the one who stated \"feel free to start your own revolution\" either, am I?

What didn't make sense was *your own example*, not my feelings on the matter -- which I didn't actually state, you may notice.

Regardless of how I, or anyone else, feels about the matter, you have to admit that if people are going to \"feel free\" to start their own revolutions, then the most likely places to start those is, you know, where the discrimination (or to be less biased, what appears to them as discrimination) is occurring.

Otherwise, this renders the protest ineffective, yes? Therefore they shouldn't really feel free to do so, I guess.

I'm not talking about gay rights one way or the other. I'm just talking logic. The examples you held up (civil rights/women's lib) directly contradict the position you purport to be taking (this isn't the venue to complain).

So which is it?

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christopherscott
February 28, 2009 9:41 AM
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@SunnyLea:

I think there is a misunderstanding. I am not advocating, nor protecting, Microsoft or their company policies. I don't work for Microsoft or even own shares in their stock.

I am simply trying to explain their point of view. It is their gaming service, and they pay for the infrastructure and hire the employees. Microsoft does not see gay, straight or bisexual. They see an unrelated game problem on their gaming service, which costs them both time and money to resolve. Microsoft doesn't construct their policies to be discriminatory; They do it to increase their profit margin.

What I am also saying, is that you can't fully understand their position unless you are the bus driver, or the sandwich shop owner.

There was a news story about an employee working at a restaurant in California, whom had donated money to a political campaign to promote Proposition 8, legislated to ban gay marriage in California. Within hours, there was a vicious protest outside the restaurant that nearly drove the owner out of business. Ironically enough, the owner himself supported gay rights, but the news media never ran that information.

Cultural and political differences has driven humanity to war and genocide. These issues have the power to make people completely irrational, prejudice, malicious, and even extremely violent. The issue over gay rights alone has destroyed peoples lives, let alone their businesses. People do not want their businesses involved in these issues, and like Microsoft, would prefer to try and stay out of it entirely.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 7:06 PM
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@christopherscott: All transsexual people are transgender. Not all transgender people are transsexual. Again, neither has anything to do with sexuality or sexual orientation. The difference is in changing your physical sex vs changing your role as society sees it. I don't expect you to know dictionary definitions of everything, but if you're going to use words and proclaim their meanings, use them correctly. :)

Anyway. The problem here isn't that Microsoft enforced their TOS. It's that the TOS are discriminatory, because they do not place the same burdens on the heterosexual community. They may not be able to put sexually explicit information in their profile, but they can list their gender and snippets about their lives that out them as heterosexual. If stating \"I'm a lesbian\" is sexually explicit, then so is stating \"I'm a married male and love my wife\".

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 27, 2009 12:22 AM
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@alliebean: I see it is pointless to debate this with you. I can understand where you are coming from and mostly agree with your posts, I just don't think MS has put this policy forth to hold anybody back. As I said before...it comes down to a list of words that carry negative connotations..regardless of their context.

I for one have absolutely no problem with people of any sexual orientation. And before you start throwing any homophobe comments around I just want to say that I am a heterosexual male myself who believes that gay marriage should be legal.

But I digress...the bottom line is she violated the TOS. End of story.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 12:26 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: I don't think anyone is arguing that she didn't violate the TOS. Rather, everyone is saying that the TOS are wrong on this issue, because they're discriminatory.

The problem is that you can't see it from our point of view. You are not us, you are not the one being told that your existence is obscene and must remain a secret. You have heterosexual privilege, and add male privilege on top of that. So rather than trying to convince us that we shouldn't be offended by something that's discriminatory to us, you should instead focus on how lucky you are that the rules were made to support people like you while denigrating people like us.

I never said you were homophobic or suggested that you were. You are blinded by your own privilege, however.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: nd yt f strght prsn hd bn bnnd nd ths cmplnd bt t, y'd b th frst prsn t b tllng thm t STF, ccpt thr \"prvlg\" nd dl wth th fct tht thy vltd th TS. Y'r hypcrt, nd y'r clrly hypcrt wth srs msndrc strk. Yr rgmnts r pthtclly prdctbl nd r rf wth mtn whlst lmst cmpltly lckng lgc.

Y R TH RSN W CN'T HV NC THNGS.

Nw g nd whn t yr grlfrnd bt hw y scrtly wnt mssv pns.

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Ben Popken
February 27, 2009 1:40 PM
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@Nathan Sinclair: You have been banned for rampant violation of The Consumerist Comments code.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:58 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: If a straight person was banned because they somehow mentioned they were straight, I'd feel that was wrong too. But that isn't what's happening.

And hypocrite? Misandric? Wow, you're pretty funny. I've not said anything hypocritical, nor have I said anything misandric. I suppose when you have nothing else to say, ad hominem always works.

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Nathan Sinclair
February 27, 2009 2:37 PM
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@llbn: S yr lttl cmmnt bt hvng th bnft f \"ml prvlg\" ws n n wy msndrc, rght?

W'r clrly lvng n tw dffrnt plnts. n mn, y sy wht y mn. n yrs, whtvr y sy mns whtvr y wnt t t.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 2:22 AM
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@Nathan Sinclair: Not at all. Not any more than saying that white people have white privilege is racist. It's pointing out a simple fact, that those who are in the mainstream have privileges that those who are not do not possess.

Of course, being that you're white, male and obviously straight (you know, girlfriend, beach, all that jazz), belonging to a minority group is probably something of which you aren't too familiar. But I'm sure you know way more about that than I do, right?

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 27, 2009 12:36 AM
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@alliebean:Okay, I am beginning to get insulted by your condescending statements. I am NOT blinded by anything. Hetero or homo....I don't think it is constructive to put that type of info in a profile in the first place. I don't care to know it..if I wanted to know ANYBODIES sexual orientation I will ask them.

Secondly, I know homosexuals have a lot of issues facing them when it comes to discrimination....but I think you miss the overall point of this particular policy.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:39 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: You're blinded because you can't seem to see that your sexual orientation is part of your identity, and that yours is accepted by default. You don't have to state what it is because it's assumed to be heterosexual. You have that privilege. We do not. If we want to identify ourselves, we have to differentiate from the mainstream and tell people, and you're saying that it's wrong of us to do this because you don't want to or don't have to. I wholeheartedly disagree.

You can get insulted all you want, but I'm not the one saying that it's okay to ban you from online services because you made a point of mentioning something about your personal life and identity. I'm just pointing out how you don't even realize what society has given you and refuses to give to us; the ability to say who you are without being condemned for it.

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christopherscott
February 26, 2009 11:08 PM
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In other news, Gawker doesn't use HTML tags in brackets. D'oh! Force of habit. :(

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JulesNoctambule
February 26, 2009 11:13 PM
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I like the whole 'protect the children' line of thinking. Because gay adults were never children; they just emerged in the world fully-formed at the age of 18, right?

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JulesNoctambule
February 27, 2009 4:32 PM
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@h3llc4t: It's a tree? Awesome! I was just getting around to planning this year's garden. Heirloom tomatoes, sunflowers, cotton, Homo Tree.

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berribrand
February 27, 2009 1:01 AM
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@JulesNoctambule: I myself have found it difficult to apply logic to another person's illogical position.

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JulesNoctambule
February 27, 2009 3:34 AM
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@berribrand: Some people seem so committed to this ridiculous notion; I can't imagine what it must be like to go through life so thickheaded.

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idip
April 7, 2009 2:52 PM
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@JulesNoctambule: I agree.

Perhaps it goes along the lines that some people think, only gay people molest children (when statistically it's straight white males who molest children more then anyone else).

or that only Arabs can be Terrorists (What happened to Timothy McVeigh, and the Unibomber?)

or that children on Xbox Live are the sweetest most innocent children in the world (I don't even get on xbox live anymore because I was tired of all the verbal harassment from 10 year olds, reporting did nothing)

People caught up in stereotypes is what it is. Ignorance is bliss? People not having to make a informed educated decision and just following the crowd.

Why make ripples? Why question things?

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:27 PM
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I have been an extremely satisfied XBOX LIVE member for years now....I just wish there was a way to keep the 12 year old kids out of Mature rated games.

Nothing is worse than getting into a gun battle alongside some of my buddies in Call of Duty only to have some pre-teen start screaming in our ears. The lobby is even worse...some of the things that people say to each other shocks even me. I suppose it's one of the costs of being connected.

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idip
April 7, 2009 2:58 PM
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@Stream Of Consciousness: It's even worse when you work retail and watch a mother buy a violent M rated game for her 9 year old. *shakes head* Glad I don't have to do that anymore.

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Scott 'Zeus' Christian
February 28, 2009 4:58 PM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: I love trash talking in lobbies. It's even funnier when the other person can't form a coherent retort.

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cc82
February 26, 2009 11:35 PM
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So by this standard if your profile simply states that you are married, are we to take it that this implies (hetero)sexuality and therefore is subject to banning?

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jezebelseven
March 1, 2009 8:58 PM
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@cc82:

This is my worry at the moment. My husband and I share a gamertag, and we've had in our profile for ages that (my name) is the wife of (his name). So basically saying we're straight and unavailable. It's always the first question asked when we come into a game, who are they speaking to, and why do we share a name. If we don't have our mic in, they can still find out. And if I have a mic in, it often keeps the guys from hitting on me, since it's all 'OMG GIRL GAMER' whatever.

I find it totally asinine that I can't put in my profile that we're a couple, explaining the gamertag, but I can say it out loud \"where context is more easily explained\". Completely ridiculous. There's nothing to explain. We're a married couple with a gamertag. I have to plug in a mic to say that?

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trujunglist
February 27, 2009 5:57 PM
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@cc82: @RandomHookup:

Wouldn't matter according to MS. If you say you're married, you're gone, because it doesn't matter who you're married to; it is implying sexuality and an (unknown) orientation.

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RandomHookup
February 27, 2009 2:43 AM
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@cc82: There are still a few places where same sex marriage is legal, so no.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 2:42 AM
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@cc82: Based on what MS has stated, yes - and if they don't do it, they should be sued to next sunday for discrimination.

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snoop-blog
February 26, 2009 11:45 PM
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This is a mountain made out of a molehill. I have gamed online for years, and granted there's a lot of shit talking going on, I have yet to hear people trying to hook up, with the exception of the psp. I have seen rooms in socom that were advertising \"looking 4 girlfriend\" and so fourth and I find that to be extremely funny. I would prefer the singles looking to mingle did so somewhere else besides my video game. And if you are just so damn proud to be gay that you absolutely must wear it on your sleeve, then you will get banned from m$. It's that simple.

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aguacarbonica
February 27, 2009 12:31 AM
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I@snoop-blog:

I love the assumption that is being tossed around here that pronouncing your sexuality is the same as seeking a sexual relationship.

Just because someone thinks that their being a lesbian is important to their identity does not mean that they are trying to use their profile as a dating service.

Marginalized people often feel connected to other marginalized people. I might describe myself as black in my XBox Live profile because I am seeking other players who might share something in common with me, and my blackness is part of my identity. Perhaps the OP would feel affinity with another lesbian or gay player who may have had a similar life experience to her (depending of course on the other information in her profile that would further describe her personality). Why is it wrong for her to seek that out in a completely NON-SEXUAL manner?

Oh that's right. Just heterosexism again.

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snoop-blog
February 26, 2009 11:50 PM
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@snoop-blog: I want to add, I could care less if someone is gay. I'm all for the rights of gays, and them being able to get married and adopt and the whole thing. I don't want anyone to think that's what I was suggesting. I'm just as strongly against a name like \"21mlooking4girlfriend\" and such. It's a freaking game. %90 of everyone I encounter during online gaming in fps's are dudes. It's just not a very good medium to meet bf's/gf's. Putting on your myspace that you love to game would be a better way to find other gamers that you would like to date.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 26, 2009 11:56 PM
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@snoop-blog: I agree with you on both of your posts here. I play a ton of games online and hate to say it but coming across a female gamer...while becoming more common is still rare.

@alliebean: Nonsense.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 12:09 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: So just what information do you feel is acceptable?

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 27, 2009 12:28 AM
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@alliebean: I know it's a slippery slope which is way we are all having this conversation.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 27, 2009 12:27 AM
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@alliebean: Well, since MS owns the service and I am paying them to use it under THEIR temrs..it is not up to me is it? But personally, anything that cannot be found as offensive or used as a derogatory term.

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alliebean
February 26, 2009 11:52 PM
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@snoop-blog: Then would you be in favor of no profiles or identifying information whatsoever, simply giving everyone a nice number? That would solve all of the problems fairly.

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StreamOfConsciousness
February 27, 2009 12:48 AM
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@alliebean: I guess I just don't see what is so unfair about this policy. Heterosexual or homosexual...if you broadcast that info on your profile you run the risk of being banned or suspended. How is that unfair when it clearly applies to both groups in the TOS?

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chargernj
February 27, 2009 3:18 PM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: because while the TOS may say it applies to both, it is only enforced against people who announce that they are gay. Therefor since the rule is not applied evenly, they are not allowed to apply it at all.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:48 AM
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@StreamOfConsciousness: Because it doesn't. Heterosexual people are free to talk about their marriages, partners, etc., because they don't have to actually state their sexuality, and nobody gives a second thought to the mention of those common things. Those things are so entrenched in our society that they're not seen as outing anything. They're seen as \"normal\". It's the rest of us who want to talk about ourselves that have to out ourselves, and then draw the ire of Microsoft or whomever else happens to be discriminating against us at the time.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 3:24 AM
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@alliebean: Allie, I must say that your points on all these various comments continue to be valid. Keep fighting the good fight. Though I, myself, am heterosexual, I hope that people can understand what you are saying. It truly is unfair that the assumption is made that everyone on the internet is male, white, christian, and straight >_<.

What I really can't understand is why people don't see the parallels between this issue and the civil rights issues of race and equality. ITS THE SAME THING!

So, good luck and keep on fighting!

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 5:34 AM
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@Oranges w/ Cheese: Thanks for the support. Times are changing and we're finally getting some of the rights to which we're entitled, but there's still a long way to go.

I think what upsets me the most about this whole ordeal is, as you said, people just can't see how it's no different than the civil rights issues of race and equality. The LGBT community is one of the last minority groups that it's still acceptable to ridicule and oppress. It's even worse if you happen to intersect with several of the groups, getting discrimination from all sides.

In the grand scheme of things, Microsoft and XBL aren't that important. But by doing the things they're doing, they propagate the idea that it's okay to discriminate against the LGBT community. If there are as many impressionable kids on the service as so many people claim, they learn from this lesson that it's okay to discriminate against people who are different from them.

Anyway, thanks again for the kind comments and support. :)

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snoop-blog
February 27, 2009 3:08 PM
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@alliebean: Listen you don't hear me complaining because I can't express that I'm hetero in my tag. It's a freaking online gaming community, get over it and move on. M$ can do as they please if you think you could create a better online gaming community (good luck a lot of people love LIVE) then have at it and I wish you the best.


If you are getting upset over this topic you really have some issues. Quit taking everything as an attack on your sexual origin, that whole thought process is conceded especially when we're talking about a a GAMING COMMUNITY! m$ doesn't run the country, just m$. There are plenty of products marketed towards gays, and I'm fine with that. I don't get pissed because I can't buy w rainbow sticker for my car without it meaning I'm gay when I just like rainbows. Seriously m$ is not excluding gays no more that hetero's. But even if they are, it is there choice, like there are business that cater to completely to the gays. that is the great thing about America is the CHOICE of diversity. Sry typing fast at work so apologize for gram errors.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 6:52 PM
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@snoop-blog: Because you don't have to. Unless you state that you are NOT heterosexual, it is assumed that you are, because the majority of people are. You do not have to differentiate yourself if you are not in the minority.

And I've said many, many times over. Microsoft has every right to be bigots about this. But it doesn't make them right for doing it.

Just because you choose not to put something in your tag doesn't mean that nobody else would like to put that particular thing in theirs.

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snoop-blog
February 28, 2009 3:17 AM
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@alliebean: No I don't use hetero as a description of myself because it's assumed, I don't use it as a description of myself because it says nothing about who I am.

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alliebean
February 28, 2009 4:57 AM
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@snoop-blog: Which doesn't negate the fact that it's assumed. The likely reason it doesn't say anything about \"who you are\" is because it's commonplace and non-differentiating, and it doesn't say anything about you that isn't already assumed to be true unless you state otherwise.

When people here have talked about heteronormative points of view, or I've talked about heterosexual privilege, this is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. You may not realize that you benefit from being the mainstream, but you do. You can't change that, but you can be aware of it and not condone things that support the behavior that does create this inequality.

This issue is much, much larger than XBL. But the TOS and behavior observed with XBL is a good example of the problem.

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snoop-blog
February 28, 2009 3:15 PM
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@alliebean: Whatever. It's not because it's assumed. You cannot prove that and it is only a theory without any basis. Being hetero doesn't tell you if: I'm single, married, old, young, cool, geek, skater, musician, artist, student, parent....need I really go on for you to get the point?

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snoop-blog
February 27, 2009 3:20 PM
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@snoop-blog: btw my tag is \"NinjaPlease\". You notice how I found a way to express myself without the use of offensive words or without expressing my sexual orientation. I'll put my life savings on it that alliebean doesn't get my point of view because she has never gamed on LIVE before let alone regularly game on there. She read the headline, the article and a couple of probably idiotic comments by prejudice people and took it as an attack on her being gay. I do not support the idiots, but I do support m$ on this one. It's fair for everyone.

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snoop-blog
February 27, 2009 3:32 PM
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@snoop-blog: Part of critical thinking is putting yourself in the shoes of others. I see what your saying but I don't think it's valid because of the \"place\" that you want to express yourself. Without you having any experience on LIVE, you really can't put yourself in the shoes of the average gamer who just wants to play games. We don't care about you not being able to say you are gay/straight anymore than we care about telling people that we are gay/straight. We just want to game. It's an addiction. Is being gay an addiction? No. It's hard to put yourself in the shoes of a gamer and understand that we just want to game. I don't care about your rights when we game. In fact I like to hunt people down, and kill them (in the games of course) all the while smack talking them untill they cry to their mommies (not literally b-cuz I don't cuss directly at kids). You see without my ()'s you may have took me literal or as a bad person where as a gamer see another average gamer. Competition and/or maybe a team member. We just want to game. I probably would use anything i could in your gamer tag to ridicule you but when you play fps's (first person shooters) that is SERIOUSLY THE NORM! No one takes serious offense to anything on the game and why would you? If you talk smack about my mom, well I talk smack about your sister. Are we being serious and getting offended. NOOOOOOO! It's all fun and games, literally. I may tell you that you drive like Sh*t and to go back to jersey. I really mean no offense. But if you don't game online, and I don't mean WoW, then you really don't understand. And if being gay is the only thing you have to express yourself, to describe who you are, then I feel sorry because I have never once used hetero as a description of who I am.

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2719
February 26, 2009 11:46 PM
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Go Microsoft! I completely agree with their point of view. I'm sick of gay people talking about them being gay. WHO CARES?

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Bethaners
February 27, 2009 12:40 AM
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@2719: \\

Well, I assume that gay people care. You know, because they're gay. You might as well have said:

\"Go Microsoft! I completely agree with their point of view. I'm sick of black people talking about them being black. WHO CARES?

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2719
February 27, 2009 1:30 PM
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@Bethaners:

My point was - I don't give a sh*t about someone being gay. If this was a service related to gay people and their relationships etc I could understand the point of providing that info in her profile.

But we are talking about XBOX LIVE! People play games and that's it.

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Antediluvian
February 27, 2009 5:33 AM
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@Bethaners: For a clearer example, I recommend \"I'm sick of Jewish [or Christian] people talking about being Jews [or Christians]. WHO CARES?\"

Because it brings it home (a little bit) for people who think gay is a choice, and it takes it away from the separate controversy over whether GLBT is comparable to race.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 5:40 AM
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@Antediluvian: What's funny is that religion IS a choice. You may not be able to change your religious heritage, but you can most certainly change religions or practice another religion free of persecution. Strangely, religion is protected, whereas something as intrinsic as sexual orientation is not.

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donopolis
February 27, 2009 3:42 PM
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@alliebean:
Well, it's not protected everywhere. In public schools, the practice of religion is is very limited in indeed...in fact it is down right frowned upon. Whereas unlike when I was in high school I see more and more young teens coming out of the closet.

Good for them!

D-

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 6:55 PM
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@donopolis: The practice of religion by students is rarely limited. The practice of religion by teachers and school officials who are acting as employees of the state ARE limited, because they represent the state, and it must be religiously ambivalent.

I agree that it's good that more and more people are coming out and being themselves. It helps when you aren't being killed for it, though those types of crimes do still take place. But as a whole, sexual orientations that differ from heterosexuality are still pretty much fair game for discrimination and abuse.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 4:02 AM
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@Bethaners: In context, does a black person just HAVE to proclaim his blackness in a gaming community. I don't see what advantage that would have in any game. I don't shout about my whiteness at every opportunity just because I can. WHO CARE IF I'M WHITE, JUST PLAY THE FRIGGIN GAME.

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aguacarbonica
February 27, 2009 1:35 AM
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@Bethaners:

This person probably won't get that example either. =/

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coren
February 26, 2009 11:47 PM
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If what M$ says is true, why was she banned rather than suspended, and with no explanation of why? Doesn't seem consistent...

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Brunette Bookworm
February 27, 2009 3:51 PM
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@coren: According to the first Consumerist article, she was suspended, not banned.

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Bethaners
February 27, 2009 12:24 AM
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I kind of think it's funny that people are thinking that by identifying herself as a lesbian she was looking for a girlfriend. Instead, you might want to look at it as her just trying to say a little about herself. Just like someone might put, \"I'm a 28 year old guy from Arkansas who is married to a wonderful gal, and I have 3 kids\" or \"I'm the ultimate Asian GAMER!\" Microsoft put the profile option up so people could say a little about themselves. If they want to ban by what's in a profile, then they need to go on a case by case basis. I assume they wouldn't ban someone if they put, \"I'm the ultimate Asian GAMER\" but probably would if someone put, \"I hate asians.\" And depending on the state that this gamer is in, this may be against the law as it could be seen as a denial of service based on sexual preference, which is against the law in at least 3 states I know of.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 12:30 AM
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Did anyone else notice that \"complaint\" is misspelled as \"compliant\"? Well, at least I'm assuming Microsoft doesn't have \"compliant tools\". It just seems rather Freudian to me on Microsoft's part.

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Zenne
February 27, 2009 12:58 AM
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The presentation of this story is a little bit sickening. I don't play Xbox Live and I don't understand how the profiles work, and I think the summary has potential to be highly misleading (it almost reads as though she was flaunting it depending on how 'profile information' can be interpreted). Report the story assuming that your entire userbase doesn't play Xbox, I really want to know.

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berribrand
February 27, 2009 12:58 AM
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If MS is targeting only words that would apply to homosexuals, this is total discrimination. Does MS apply the same policy if the word \"straight\", \"str8\", \"hetero\", or any other word that denotes heterosexuality (e.g., married, wife, husband, etc.) is in a profile?

If not, this is total and complete bias.

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donopolis
February 27, 2009 3:44 PM
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@berribrand:
married, wife, and husband are no longer exclusive to the straight community...and we're better off for that.

Don

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zachbeason
February 27, 2009 1:06 AM
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How about all the people that have \"xXx\" at both ends of their gamertag? XXX = porn / strippers / live nudes am I not correct?

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erin_w (formerly femme_dork)
February 27, 2009 3:19 AM
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@zachbeason: Or straightedge. Never understood that, but it implies hardcoreness in some way...

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Kyle Kammerer
February 27, 2009 1:25 AM
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Xbox Live is for playing video games...

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 1:49 AM
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@Kyle Kammerer: yes ... WITH PEOPLE. People are pretty varied, you know.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 3:59 AM
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@alliebean: Regardless, what does sexual orientation have to do AT ALL with playing games? At what point in Left 4 Dead would I need to know that you are gay/straight to continue playing with you and having fun. Would knowing your sexual orientation somehow cause a turnabout in score when playing Halo? What does it matter?

I know, I know. \"But everyone assumes YOUR straight! WE don't have that luxury!\" That's fine. What does it matter? Assume I'm gay if you want. Assume everyone you come across online is gay. Feel better? Does that enhance your gaming experience? I don't think so. It has no bearing. Yeah and I know all about \"it defines who I am.\" Oh well. It's just a game. You won't see many of the people you play with ever again anyway so them knowing that info won't help anyone. All they need is a little tag, a handle, to call you throughout your play session. Is it really THAT important to you for everyone to know that you are gay? Nobody is saying you can't be who you are, just be it somewhere else, somewhere more appropriate. We come to LIVE to play games, we don't give a crap about your sexuality. If I did, trust me, I'd ask.

On a side note: I don't think that it's faggotry/homosexuality that people are concerned about when they say that it isn't appropriate for kids. It's the fact that SEX should not be discussed in front of kids when many parents have a problem with it. MS is trying to create an environment where kids as well as adults can enjoy time playing games and spend less time fighting over ethics. As I said before, you don't need to change who you are, just realize that there is a time and place to share some information and LIVE is not one of those avenues. God, get a facebook account or something if you JUST GOTTA express yourself that badly.

Grow up, it's not all about you.

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DeeJayQueue
February 27, 2009 1:56 AM
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So, it's ok to say that you're asian, black, hispanic, jewish, italian, christian, athiest, protestant, male, female, tall, short, fat, skinny, glasses, no glasses, etc, in your profile, but it's NOT ok to say that you're GLBT. And this is non-discriminitory how? Explain to me how one descriptive factor is ok, and another is not.

Also, explain to me at what age exactly is it appropriate to expose children to gays? Why is it appropriate for children of any and all ages to learn about heterosexual couples and relationship constructs, but it's NOT ok for them to learn about gay relationships or gay people until they reach a specified maturity?

While you're at it, explain to me why Microsoft goes to such lengths to censor the textual content of someone's profile, but they don't give a hoot what you say over the microphone? I don't use the service, but from what I hear, it's nothing but profanitypalooza on there. If the content of the voice chat being carried on their network can't be censored, why bother doing it to profiles?

Oh, right. Money. Microsoft doesn't want to pay monitors to ban people for using foul language in the games, or come up with software to bleep out the potentially offensive language, even though that's where the potential for harrassment and abuse is the greatest.

It's easy though, to write a script that does a keyword search and auto-bans anyone with any words on the \"naughty\" list, so that's what they do, and if we don't like it we don't have to use it.

Well, that's why I don't use it. I'm not going to pay for a service that has their censorship issues bass-ackwards, and I'm not giving money to a company that bans users for having innocuous keywords in their profiles, or having certain three-letter combinations legitimately in their name, yet allows the most vile, ridiculous vitriolic trash get carried on their network as audio because they're too lazy and cheap to prevent it.

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2719
February 27, 2009 1:38 PM
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@DeeJayQueue:

Majority of people don't find words like asian, jewish etc offensive. That's not the case with 'gay'. It's a sensitive subject. A lot of emotions from both sides and it tends to get ugly. MS wants none of it. Just the way it is.

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chargernj
February 27, 2009 3:23 PM
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@2719: The MAJORITY don't find \"gay\" to be offensive either. Just a really vocal minority does.

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DustoMan
February 27, 2009 2:18 AM
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Once again Consumerist, thanks for another negative Microsoft Xbox article. You guys really need to knock this off. To the readers, go search for the sheer number of negative posts about Microsoft. Most of them totally ill-researched and totally exaggerated. So stop, take a deep breath, and ignore this post. Stop rewarding page views to Consumerist for crap posts like this.

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RedSonSuperDave
February 27, 2009 6:42 AM
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@DustoMan: As a former 360 owner who had two consoles die on me due to the RROD, who inadvertently destroyed my own save data (wiping out hundreds of hours of gaming achievement) by following the incorrect instructions provided to him by MS's pathetic excuse for \"customer support\", who was lied to on 19 out of 20 times I spoke to them, I am FINE with Consumerist covering issues like this. Microsoft lies to its customers and provides the absolute minimum customer support it legally can to avoid getting sued, and the viewers of this site need to see every nefarious act that MS tries to pull.

Every time I see another anti-MS article from now on, I'm going to hit the refresh button twenty times to give Consumerist more pageviews.

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DustoMan
February 27, 2009 3:10 PM
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@RedSonSuperDave: I had two 360s die too. But I wasn't stupid enough to destroy my save data. I sent the boxes in, and a week later they came back fixed. End of story. I've been more then happy with the support I received and continue to enjoy my Xbox. However, what Comsumerist is doing on a consistent bases is spreading mis-information and bitching from users who don't know how to use the Live service. Very anti-consumer if you ask me.

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RedSonSuperDave
February 27, 2009 6:51 PM
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@DustoMan: It's not about being \"stupid\", it's about following the instructions which were given to me over the phone by authorized Microsoft customer support personnel, who insisted that I had to complete those steps before I could get a replacement for my 360. I guess I was \"stupid\" to assume that Microsoft employees knew what they were talking about when they told me to delete and redownload my profile and that it wouldn't cause me to lose any data.

A week later? Well, our experiences differ. It was 8 weeks the first time and a month the second time for me, and it took roughly 30 hours on the phone to manage it.

I have yet to see any misinformation about Live posted on the Consumerist.

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arcticJKL
February 27, 2009 2:33 AM
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Those who are offended by this policy by microsoft should boycott all microsoft products until they change it.

Those who like the policy should buy more.

Those who don't care should go about their business like usual.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 2:59 AM
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Why do people feel the need to tell everyone their sexual orientation? I lump those people in the same group as evangelical christians, amway sales people and other proselytizers. My level of disdain is the same for all those I listed. I love all people, but those that feel the need to tell me their personal business and beliefs, like they're trying to convert or convince me, really get on my nerves. If you're willing to advertise yourself, as whatever, you must also be willing to take the heat! And to the pundit who says sexuality should matter, why? It only matters to those that dwell on sexuality. Get a job, start a hobby, keep yourself busy. Just don't think for a minute that you're the one that's going to convince the whole world that everyone should be tolerant of gays. It's people like me that are stuck in between the gay lovers and the gay bashers,and I'm bored with both of you. Honestly, I could care less if you get on your knees to pray to a god or your on your knees for some other purpose.

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Tyler Waldman
February 27, 2009 3:30 AM
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Other Gamertags you will never see on Live...
ILOVETOGETSLAID
WillSuckCockForCash
Hetero Pride
bonurz r fun

Live is against shenanigans by both sides, far as I can tell. Content about one's sexual orientation is irrelevant to Live. This isn't Stephen Toulose and co. ganging up on GLAAD or anything.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 3:39 AM
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@Tyler Waldman: And yet LadiesMan, PlayaDude, SomeGuy69, Mike420, XXXSteveXXX, etc are allowed.

How is this not double-standards?

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Shira Raider
February 27, 2009 3:38 AM
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I really LIKE the idea of being able to game without some youngster of any gender and orientation trying to get all sexy with me. If you agree (or are even willing to argue as an exercise) that trying to shape an online community as a sexually neutral space is worthwhile, how would you do it?


The way I see it, having one word both refers specifically to sex, and to a greater cultural identity, makes it difficult to create that kind of community without curbing free expression of that identity.


While I agree that sexual orientation is about more than sex, I think it's disingenous to not acknowledge that it's a major component. When you meet another lesbian, is your first thought \"I wonder if she loves Ani Difranco as much as I do!\" or do you check her out? There's NO way ms. \"lesbian2020\" on xbox was looking to meet ladiez?

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aguacarbonica
February 27, 2009 4:04 AM
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@Shira Raider:

So are you saying that when you meet someone that you know is attracted to your gender, you immediately start checking them out?

You have never had platonic feelings toward people of the same gender that you have sexual feelings toward?

Either you're serious, and socially bizarre, or you're just rationalizing the hypersexualization of people with a particular sexual orientation.

I'm really stunned by all the ignorance on Consumerist, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. This is how most of America thinks, after all.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 27, 2009 3:56 AM
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@Shira Raider: See, the fallacy of your argument is that you're implying only those of the non-heterosexual orientation are seeking out \"partners\".

MS can't come down on one group, without equally coming down on the other.

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Shira Raider
March 4, 2009 10:07 PM
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@Oranges w/ Cheese:


the thing is, people assume youre hetero unless stated otherwise, so folks are less likely to feel the need to identify themselves as such in their username. should hetero2020 be banned too, though? absolutely.

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shinseiromeo
February 27, 2009 4:04 AM
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I agree with MS in a way but not how they handled the situation.


I agree with the idea that your sexuality does not belong in a gaming profile, especially one for the random public to see. No one needs to know your sexuality when you're there to play games. Save that information for the dating sites or your private social profiles.

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Haroon Piracha
February 27, 2009 4:08 AM
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I'm so happy I don't own an Xbox 360, and now, I never will. I am never going to support Microsoft by buying an Xbox. NEVER. I might make games for it proudly, I might even play games at a friends house, but I will, never support them. They have sucky games for the console anyways ... and I'm sure Lost Odyssey was stupid :p

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 5:52 AM
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Its microsofts service and she agreed to follow the AUP when using it, she knew the stakes yet she chose to roll the dice.

She got what was coming to her and its her own fault. Homosexual or straight the rules apply for all. Stuff like that needs to stay outside of potential FAMILY gaming networks.

Just think of the flipside to this, a parent sees what theyre kid is viewing and its a profile of a person whos promoting homosexuality. We'd probably have another topic here saying PARENT OFFENDED BY CHILD VIEWING LESBIAN XBOX LIVE PROFILE.

You can't have it both ways.

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Papa Midnight
February 27, 2009 6:35 AM
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\"[We] just wanted to reemphasize that we take any harassment seriously and would encourage the woman mentioned in the Consumerist story to come forward and report the harassment so that we can take action against those individuals,\" the company representative told Ars.

[arstechnica.com]

Oh really? Lets see some of these verbally offensive racist have actions taken against them and I may believe that statement.

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Papa Midnight
February 27, 2009 6:36 AM
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@Papa Midnight: And I just want to reemphasize that if only 1% of the racist kids (I seriously mean \"kids\") online had their accounts suspended, I'll have more of a reason to believe that statement.

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RedSonSuperDave
February 27, 2009 7:02 AM
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@Papa Midnight: Precisely. The only reason I've EVER seen anybody suspended on Live is because of having something offensive in their username or profile. You can't name yourself \"KKKlansman\", but you can call everybody you meet a (racial slur) fifty times a match, and nothing ever happens to you. They don't care about actually enforcing the terms of service, they just want the public perception that they care, meanwhile, every pottymouthed preteen in America is gleefully cursing into their headset from the safety of their mommy's house knowing full well that they will never suffer any consequences for it, as long as their parents don't overhear them.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 7:07 AM
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It's sad that people are being forced to hide who they are.

If shes a lesbian then shes a lesbian. Why should she be asked to hide such a thing?

The most hypocritical thing of all. These parents that complain? The same parents that put children on games they are too young for?

Shouldn't Microsoft be banning children instead? Since apparently they are the problem leading people to being penalized for being themselves.

Buy a PS3. Forget Microsoft, eventually you'll have E47 error anyway. happens to 42% of consoles made before 2008.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 11:24 AM
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Umm... People refer to their sexual orientation all the time. If you mention your husband, child, marriage, in-law, etc, you've just mentioned your sexual orientation.

Seriously, this comes up quite frequently when I identify as a girl in a game - or am identified as a girl in a game - and suddenly I have to /not refer/ to my spouse, who is also a girl. If I haven't been identified as a girl, and I say 'her' about my 'spouse' people assume I'm hetero and male. Of course, that's not true.

So isn't is better to have it in the profile, so the jerks can't say they didn't know when they invited me into their game?

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GrandizerGo
February 27, 2009 1:28 PM
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Grammar Police...

I am betting they are asking you to use the \"complaint tools\" rather then the more useful \"compliant tools\"...

:)

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nakedscience
February 27, 2009 2:53 PM
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@alliebean: \"...it comes down to a list of words that carry negative connotations..regardless of their context.\"


So ... being gay or lesbian or trans are things that \"carry negative connotations\"? Really? Wow.

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qcgallus
February 27, 2009 2:57 PM
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You know, I'm kind of interested in finding out what would happen if a GSA Chapter were to make a gaming clan in Xbox Live. Where is the edge of the sexuality barrier mentioned in the ToS? GSA has sexuality implied, in that it embraces sexuality of all types, but has no sexuality implied for one individual. Would a GSA clan get banned?

Is the barrier for sexuality the individual or one's general proclamation for it?

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chargernj
February 27, 2009 3:16 PM
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I don't see how your orientation is \"content of a potentially sexual nature\". Our society gets all worked up over non issues like this all the time. In our culture it it usually assumes by most people that if you are a boy then you like girls and if you are a girl then you like boys. But what if that doesn't describe you? To me, stating your orientation is no different than stating your gender. I can imagine one reason a woman may want to declare that she is a lesbian is to reduce the number of assholes who would be hitting on her online.

MS has set itself up for a lawsuit. I, for one, hope it happens. You can't hide behind the fact that it is a private business as they open themselves to all people who own an Xbox.

The only comparison I can think of right now is if Costco were to revoke a membership because someone was wearing a gay pride shirt. Sure things like that happen, and when they do the company usually gets a lot of bad press and makes a public apology.

MS needs to make this right.

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donopolis
February 27, 2009 3:31 PM
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Marriage is, sadly, not always sexual.

Don

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Brunette Bookworm
February 27, 2009 3:55 PM
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Okay, I'm a little confused about the whole story here, and it makes a difference as to what I think. The first article on this site stated that her account was suspended, which would be in line with what Microsoft's statement is here, but this article says she was banned. Which is it?

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josst10
February 27, 2009 5:28 PM
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Look maybe I am simplifying things here but if I go to my local Vons market and announce to all that I am gay I can expect that some people would hold it against me, some would admire me for saying so, some would just keep shopping as it is no big deal and then some would shy away from me because they don't agree with it...

Take this action to the anonymous online world where you get even greater judgment and why would it surprise anyone?

I am dyslexic and have ADHD and while I'm fine to say that online with anonymity, there are maybe 2 people in my life that know it. People judge that we are dumb, slow, making excuses, on medication, etc. so I don't subject myself to their judgments of something I see as a positive.

Microsoft cannot police social standards and how people react. They can only help to not put people in the position to be berated.

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alliebean
February 27, 2009 6:59 PM
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@josst10: Let's change the example just a bit to better fit a realistic situation. It's not that likely that you'd walk into a store and proclaim your sexual orientation. But, perhaps you walk in with your partner. Or perhaps you're wearing a t-shirt or something that emphasizes your support of LGBT equality. You perform some action, or you say some thing, that outs your orientation. The girl in question isn't getting in trouble because she joined all games and proclaimed that she was a lesbian, it's because there's an identifying piece of information about her in her profile that says she is.

Anyway, the difference in your example and the reality of the situation is that nobody is saying that people should be forced to accept her. They're saying she shouldn't be punished for identifying herself, just like you shouldn't be kicked out of the store because someone picked up on your sexual orientation.

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MBEmom
February 27, 2009 5:44 PM
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\"..a member may not create a gamertag or use text in other profile fields that include comments that look, sound like, stand for, hint at, abbreviate, or insinuate content of a potentially sexual nature.\"

Well, my husband pays Call of Duty on Playstation and they do not have this rule. I haven't seen anyone with a homosexual bent to their tag but I've sure seen plenty with a heterosexual one. There no hinting with many of these, it's plain as day. I won't name any here but let's just say 13 year old boys can be very creative when it comes to pretending they know anything about sex.

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Brunette Bookworm
February 27, 2009 7:42 PM
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@MBEmom: But that's Playstation, which isn't on the same network so I'm assuming Sony has different rules? I don't know if I think this rule is right or not, but if they enforce it evenly I don't have a big problem with it. It just comes down to how they enforce it.

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Anonymous
February 27, 2009 5:56 PM
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It's sad, because all the pot references in gamertags, but they can't let one be lesbian? I am tired of the \"blazed\" or 420 references. I have kids and don't want them seeing that stuff neither.

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orlo
February 27, 2009 11:54 PM
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@CarinSauer: Don't worry. Pot won't make them turn gay.

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YouMustBeHarveysSqueeze
February 27, 2009 9:25 PM
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So does this mean that when I was playing Call of Duty last night that the guy who won with the gamertag \"UnrealGirth\" should probably be ejected?

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qcgallus
February 28, 2009 1:37 AM
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@YouMustBeHarveysSqueeze: Negative. He was referring to the logs that he had to split, to both give him the upper body he so loves AND heat his home while he plays CoD through the night.

Duh.

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JFetch
February 28, 2009 1:40 AM
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There is no story here. Read the rules and know what's against them. She wasn't banned, she was suspended for breaking a rule. She just has to change her name and she'll be back online.

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CyberSkull
February 28, 2009 4:10 AM
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Question: If I live on Lesbos Island and list that in my location? Is that allowed?

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Tim Murphy
February 28, 2009 9:42 PM
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Yes, the whole 'protecting children' thing is a smokescreen. It's right up there with 'fighting terrorism', many times, as an amorphous catch-all/feel-good thing. Canada Customs used to crow that it protected women and children by seizing materials at the border - yes, thank you for confiscating safer sex info and books about how to detect and fight child molestation....


Now, personally, I had no concept of ANY sexual orientation until I was in my 20s, but it's not as though (a) I didn't know other people did and (b) I'm not aware other people knew earlier.


If you want some idea of the abuses that 'protecting children' can lead to, you might look into Project Guardian in London, Ontario, Canada, in the early 1990s. Research, and remember...

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Shira Raider
March 4, 2009 10:05 PM
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@aguacarbonica:
why oh why do you hurt me so? no need to assume the worst possible interpretation. :-)


Of course I have platonic feelings towards people of the gender I'm attracted to. I said I don't like being hit on online, right? But it's silly to assume that there aren't people out there who are looking to hook up, and one obvious aid to that would be to state sexual preference in their username.


Is that worse than straight people picking up straight people? Nope. Do I believe \"hetero2020\" should be banned too? Absolutely.


But the catch is, people assume you're straight unless you state otherwise, so there are probably fewer people identifying their heterosexuality in their user name.

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