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dddoistutter
February 22, 2009 4:56 PM
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It's his boss's uncle, not his. Just sayin'...

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2 replies
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rinse
February 22, 2009 8:28 PM
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@dddoistutter: Dude, this is a blog -- not Pulitzer-contending journalism. :P

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Jage
February 22, 2009 5:11 PM
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@dddoistutter: @morganlh85: Obviously not, since Cablevision agreed to do it after he talked to a supervisor.

The point of the letter is that Cablevision tried to force upsell him to a more expensive services.

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morganlh85
February 22, 2009 5:03 PM
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Now I heard that in some apartment buildings you DO need a cable box to get the new digital signal, even if you have a cable-ready TV. In fact, in our apartment building, where the cable is free, Comcast came and installed digital boxes in all the apartments (we already had one) and our cable comes through a preinstalled cable in the wall. Is it possible that this guy was incorrect?

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6 replies
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ScottRose
February 24, 2009 11:51 PM
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@morganlh85:

IMO Cablevision is heading towards a 100% digital distribution network. I've been using analog for a long time for my DVR (IR emitters + the shitty Scientific Atlanta cable boxes don't make for reliable tuning), and they have been slowly dropping cable channels that are available over analog. (I do have iO service, and use cable boxes for HD and live TV viewing, BTW, so it's not that my service has become more limited).

I would wager that they don't want to hook up any more analog-only customers if they can avoid it, because those customers will just be up in arms when Cablevision gets down to dropping 2-12 (well, 2-14 AFAIK) from analog.

And YES, I know this has nothing whatsoever to do with the over-the-air DTV switch.

BTW - Reasons that giving out boxes to basic/analog-only customers makes sense from the cable company's POV:

1) Easier upgrade path for customer to more expensive, premium services.

2) Profit on box rentals.

3) Less complaints when all channels go digital.

4) Less costly to modify/restrict/enhance the customer's service (e.g. now a cable installer has to physically come to your location to disconnect or limit analog services. Not so if everything is digital.)

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eakwave1
February 23, 2009 3:35 PM
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@morganlh85: Comcast made an \"upgrade\" in their service that has nothing to do with the digital conversion. They now force all of their users (at least in my area of Northern CA) to have a box, whether it's the small \"upgrade\" box or the big \"everything\" box. The remotes for the new little boxes don't work correctly (the mute button turns the TV off and the volume buttons - both - turn the volume up only) and the service is terrible so I canceled Comcast and went to ATT U-Verse. Buh-bye, Comcast!

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strathmeyer
February 22, 2009 9:37 PM
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@morganlh85: Why, what happened when you plugged the cable into your TV? This is usually how I get free cable television before I have Internet installed.

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mgy
February 22, 2009 5:06 PM
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@morganlh85: The new digital signal has nothing to do with cable.

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Jim Topoleski
February 22, 2009 5:20 PM
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@mgy: Your wrong or rather your not understanding the discussion.

In order to get digital cable, which many apartments ONLY provide through a contract with their cable company, you need a cable box (this is how Cable managed to get around the legal requirement not to force you to need a cable box.)

Just like on air tv there are now two flavors of cable, digital, and analog.

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mgy
February 22, 2009 8:48 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: You're right. I misinterpreted what they were saying.

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morganlh85
February 22, 2009 5:10 PM
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@mgy: This sounds like it has something to do with it to me. I could be reading it wrong.

\"However, for business reasons (among other things, digital is much more efficient than analog), cable companies may be interested in transitioning their systems from analog delivery to digital delivery. If a cable company makes the business decision to go all-digital (meaning it will stop offering any channels to its customers in analog), it must ensure that its analog customers can continue to watch their local broadcast stations. This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box. If the cable company provides the customer with a set-top box, any costs related to it will be determined by the cable company. Therefore, it is recommended that analog cable customers contact their cable company to ask if a set-top box will be needed, when it will be needed, and if there will be a cost.\"

I'm reading that to mean that if Cablevision uses all-digital delivery, you would need their cable box to use their services.

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milrtime83
February 22, 2009 5:16 PM
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If he is just looking to get his local channels why not get a converter box and skip paying cablevision anything?

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9 replies
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Bootes
February 23, 2009 7:15 PM
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@richcreamerybutter: The digital channels aren't broadcasting at full capacity until the digital switchover.

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Tonguetied
February 23, 2009 9:08 PM
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@Bootes: Actually I've heard that the signal strength is actually going to go DOWN after the switchover...

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)
February 22, 2009 8:18 PM
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@milrtime83: Might not be able to get any channels. We get 5 out of 6 over-the-air channels with an antenna and the digital switch. My next door neighbors get ONE, and badly. Their TV can't be more than 60 feet from mine, and they have a roof-mounted antenna to boot.

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catnapped
February 22, 2009 6:57 PM
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@milrtime83: Maybe because he can't pick up everything (or anything) with an antenna?

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richcreamerybutter
February 22, 2009 6:57 PM
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@milrtime83: I have my box and new antenna, and my digital reception is lousy (I have no idea what I'm going to do when the full conversion takes place).

People have been putting too much blame on the recipients for their supposed unpreparedness, but the landscape for many of us is just not built for digital signals.

Time Warner (my neighborhood monopoly) supposedly offers a basic service, but actually obtaining this requires traveling through the desert, into the cave, and slaying the dragon at the third right turn.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
February 22, 2009 7:36 PM
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@richcreamerybutter: Same here - I bought a converter box yesterday just to try it out. It's the same 6 channels I got before with an antenna - albiet with better picture - but I'm still faced with the dillema, what do do when nothing else is on?

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framitz
February 22, 2009 6:55 PM
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@milrtime83:
This certainly seems like a better solution and less expensive. One time investment, and no cable company involved.

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CyGuy
February 22, 2009 5:46 PM
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@milrtime83: Yeah, I don't get that. Why pay even $15 a month when for about $15 (after the coupon discount)you can get a converter and never pay anything else.

Also, I can't imagine how bad a company would have to be for the OP to recommend Verizon Customer Service over them, but the discussion he recounts here certainly doesn't describe it. This complaint sounds like a CSR who has been told he has to meet a marketing quota (or his supervisor has) and to meet that quota, sell a box and free HBO trial to EVERY new customer.

I also wonder if they end up charging this guy a sizable installation fee for hooking up basic cable that would have been waived had he gotten the box and free trial.

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starbreiz
February 22, 2009 9:07 PM
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@CyGuy: A lot of folks who could get the analog signals can't receive the new digital signals, because they don't reach as far... my parents being one case. They have basic cable, and the cable co did the work on the back end, so they just plug the coax into the wall.

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Anonymous
February 22, 2009 5:18 PM
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Cablevision has dropped all analog channels from their system in some areas, so you do need a box. Other cable companies carry both analog and digital channels, so you don't need a box to get the analog channels. Cablevision only carries digital channels, which frees up bandwidth for HD channels. Much in the same way you would need a converter box for satellite, you will need one for Cablevision. It may work without a box if you have a tv with a built in digital tuner. Comcast is doing this in some markets as well. Eventually all cable systems will go this route. See this article.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/18/AR2008121802613.html

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AtwoodBullfinch
February 23, 2009 8:30 PM
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@NashKligmanic:

Thank you for saying it before I could. Cablevision did nothing wrong. I live in a Building in BK with a simliar status...For kicks i tried plugging in an old TV to the wall to see if it picked up anything (Yes...I have an old TV laying around...Nintendo looks better on it then a Flat screen...no joke). Guess what i got...STATIC...no local, no basic...just static...the building has no Analogue on any channel...maybe it has something to do with when cablevision came in and switched my building to a digital only box....maybe....

I don't know, ive only had good service through cablevision...but, whatever, this is still a very under researched article.

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Plates
February 22, 2009 5:18 PM
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You have seen the scuzzy ads Cablevision has been running featuring a former WNBC reporter (who was in one of those fake newscast financial infomercials):

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4 replies
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Garbanzo
February 22, 2009 6:45 PM
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@Plates: I honestly didn't see anything deceptive in that ad. They stated truthfully that people who get their TV over an antenna could lose their reception, and cable is an alternative. What's the problem?

Granted, they don't discuss other alternatives (such as a converter box), but I also don't expect a commercial for a gym to say, \"Alternatively, you can jog in your neighborhood and use resistance bands at home.\"

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Hyman Decent
February 22, 2009 11:54 PM
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@Garbanzo: Your last name wouldn't be Dolan, would it?

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chris_d
February 22, 2009 8:25 PM
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@Garbanzo:
It is obviously designed to make older people think there's going to be NO TV unless they call these scumbags at cablevision. The FCC should fine their asses.

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richcreamerybutter
February 22, 2009 7:03 PM
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@Garbanzo: It is overtly scuzzy, especially for older folks who may not fully understand the new procedure (their target demographic, judging by the spokesperson and set). The message basically states that many people will lose their signal, but if you get their craptastic package, you won't be one of them.

This is just one step away from simply displaying a giant set of boobs along with the message, \"switch to Cablevision!\"

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morganlh85
February 22, 2009 5:22 PM
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Is it possible that Cablevision simply doesn't offer any analog services any more?

\"However, for business reasons (among other things, digital is much more efficient than analog), cable companies may be interested in transitioning their systems from analog delivery to digital delivery. If a cable company makes the business decision to go all-digital (meaning it will stop offering any channels to its customers in analog), it must ensure that its analog customers can continue to watch their local broadcast stations. This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box. If the cable company provides the customer with a set-top box, any costs related to it will be determined by the cable company. Therefore, it is recommended that analog cable customers contact their cable company to ask if a set-top box will be needed, when it will be needed, and if there will be a cost.\"

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AndrewJC
February 26, 2009 7:16 AM
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@morganlh85: Even if it were the case that the service is digital-only, that does NOT mean that he would have to buy a box. All TVs sold nowadays have digital tuners, which means you wouldn't need a box, and furthermore, if it was a TV with an analog tuner (as I'm assuming it is), he could have had one of those DTV boxes that everybody can get with a voucher from the government. Either way, Cablevision CANNOT require the use of THEIR box.

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CyrusOpeth
February 22, 2009 5:27 PM
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OK, there are sleazy salespeople out there. Fact. Been a fact for longer than recorded history. Does that require such a whine? Folks, this ceased to be news about three weeks after the internet came into fashion as a public utility. We've heard all the stories, and this is just a mote of dust on the pile of crap that goes on in the world. I certainly hope we haven't raised a generation of people who go through life blind to this, and who are shocked when it finally does happen to them. Life sucks, it isn't fair, everyone is out for himself, and you have to watch out for yourself at every turn. So?

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2 replies
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Munchtime
February 22, 2009 6:07 PM
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@CyrusOpeth: This is a good article to reinforce the ongoing problems with Cablevision and acts as further evidence to weigh for anyone who might be considering getting their service. If the article helps one extra person avoid being scammed at Cablevision, then it has done its job.

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Blueskylaw
February 22, 2009 6:23 PM
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@CyrusOpeth:

Young people who are growing up and moving out probably never had to deal with their cable company before.

This is a good lesson for them to learn and remember, and it should help them question other business practices and avoid or detect incompetent/pushy/lying salespeople.

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valen
February 22, 2009 5:35 PM
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My problem with cable companies is that they tend to ignore the existence of commercially available QAM tuners. For example, the cable TV provider in my area provides about 80 channels on their expanded basic analog service. However, I only receive about 20 unencrypted QAM channels (which has the same channels as the $10/month basic only package). As an added bonus, most of the channels do not have a virtual channel information, leaving stations like \"TBS\" to be assigned to channel \"110#4\" (which is usually channel 7 on the rented digital converter box). I really wish that the FCC would step in and require that their unencrypted QAM service provide equivalent service to the expanded basic digital package (complete with real channel metadata like callsign and channel).

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taking_this_easy
February 22, 2009 5:40 PM
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@valen: QAM tends to be digital channels which means (a little) higher quality stuff.... FCC only mandates they give out local news channels for free.... its their business plan to earn more money, to get u to subscribe to their digital service....

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LegoMan322
February 22, 2009 5:41 PM
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I understand that constant readers of the Consumerist are knowledgeable about these facts, but I am very unhappy with the way this forum is going. So far everyone has something negative to say about this report. This story is no different than any other story on the Consumerist.

As a CableVision prisoner for all my life, I completely understand this guy's frustrations with trying to get something so simple hooked up. I go through this once a year when I have to change the billing name from mine to my wife, then a year later change it back so we can always get the over priced (and least expensive) Triple Play.

CableVision is as bad if not worse than AT&T, BestBuy, Sprint, and well EVERY large conglomerate out there that is imposing its will were its not needed or wanted.

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Anonymous
February 22, 2009 5:46 PM
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People complain when they have no idea what they are talking about. Get a converter box so you dont need to pay monthly for those same channels and its done.

what kind of installer are you?

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Klay
February 22, 2009 6:14 PM
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morganlh85
Asked:
\"Is it possible that Cablevision simply doesn't offer any analog services any more?\"

Under the FCC \"must carry\" rule, they might have dropped all the analog fluff channels one might get with basic cable, but they have to carry, un-encrypted in analog, the available local channels. As cable companies try to remain competitive with HD, on-demand, phone and internet, their systems are full (bandwidth-wise) and going to all-digital gains them space for services. Additionally, all-digital systems requiring a box reduce pirating and multi-view splits.

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2 replies
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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 6:24 PM
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@Klay:
That's actually not true. Someone above posted some information (while not properly cited) that is from the accurate re: cable companies going all digital. If a cable company chooses to go ALL digital, they no longer have to broadcast the must-carry stations in Analog. So long as they make boxes available to all customers (in order to ensure those customers can still get the must-carry stations), they can completely cease analog service. Further, they can charge for the boxes. For now, all I can cite to is the DTV.gov site, which is where the passage above comes from, but I know I've read it in an FCC opinion recently which I'll try to dig up.

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CharlieInSeattle
February 22, 2009 6:20 PM
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@Klay: They also have to carry the local digital channels unencrypted.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 6:15 PM
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As mentioned above, it's at least possible that Cablevision in Brooklyn has ceased analog service, thus generally necessitating a digital box. A regular \"cable-ready\" TV won't cut it (though TV's with ATSC tuners may pickup some of the digital channels, they may not appear properly, etc.). The know-it-all OP didn't bother to inquire as to why the box was required, he simply stated that the rep was wrong. As a former Cable company CSR (not Cablevision), I generally HATED talking to people who worked as \"theater installers\". They always think they know better than you do and usually won't listen. While in this instance it appears (for the moment) that the OP was indeed correct, that doesn't really excuse his arrogance and failure to inquire as to why the box might be required. Had he inquired as to why the box was required, and was met with a \"it just is\" response, I'd have more sympathy. But as reported, he just immediately refuted the CSR's position based solely on his personal knowledge.

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Fletchb
February 24, 2009 1:33 AM
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@Pylon83:

Sounds like they are trying to pass the buck on to their customers. Those converters typically have high latency between channel changes and if the FCC is in fact allowing them to force the boxes on customers (and charge them for it), that would be reason enough for me to drop cable. Going digital helps the cable company, not the customer and they shouldn't have to pay for it in monthly charges or slow channel change times.

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CharlieInSeattle
February 22, 2009 6:21 PM
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@Pylon83: Digital Cable isn't in the ATSC format, it is QAM. Alot of newer TV's have QAM tuners as well as ATSC. But unless you have a cable card, the channels don't get mapped to the correct channel.

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David Brodbeck
February 23, 2009 6:07 PM
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@CharlieInSeattle: Some cable networks encrypt all the QAM channels, so even with a QAM tuner you might still need a set-top box.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 6:25 PM
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@CharlieInSeattle:
That's true. I made a broad generalization that many TV's with ATSC tuners also have QAM tuners. That generalization, like most generalizations, isn't 100% accurate, but most higher-end TVs have both. I should have been more clear.

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tinyrobot
February 22, 2009 6:25 PM
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Cablevision boxes have those funny little chip-cards inserted into them (see the far right of the post image). Any cable box will do on your line, as long as it has YOUR card inserted into it (I used to be a customer at one point in Brooklyn).

There's a good chance the box ISN'T required, but that the little card/authentication dongle is, and therefore a box or ANY card reader would be required?

Insofar as I know, this card is not a Cablecard. It's just a small plastic card with a smart chip on it that inserts into the front of the Scientific Atlanta boxes. They never told me what the card was for, but the one time I pulled it out, the cable shut off.

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shepd
February 23, 2009 2:28 PM
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@tinyrobot:

That's probably some sort of security upgrade the cableco purchased from SA. AFAIK, there is no standard for US cableboxes apart from CableCard/Tru2Way, neither of which an SA receiver will accept. I am assuming the card probably looks like a CI card (ie: It is basically a credit card with no swipe, but with a chip), but there is no way SA would make it CI compatible. SA receivers are designed to be locked to a cable provider and never used for anything else.

Cable would have gone out since the box no longer had a way to decrypt the PowerVu keys (or whatever crypto the box is using, the card may be for a new system).

Interesting to hear this, though, because it means there's cracks in the old crypto method, which my cableco uses... :)

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post_break
February 22, 2009 6:33 PM
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They might have dropped unencrypted cable due to high cable theft in the area. Anyone could splice and get a piece of the action. Encrypted cable needs a \"box\" that houses a cable card that then decrypts the data. This isn't really a converter box but something that decrypts the data.

But from the sound of the call it seems the salesman just wanted to up sell.

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jdsmn
February 22, 2009 6:37 PM
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can you buy the same model from ebay or craigslist, and avoid the rental fee? Am I am wrong, but cable companies are required to allow you to bring your own box (assuming it is compatible), correct?

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 7:00 PM
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@jdsmn:
Most, but not all, of the boxes on Craiglist or eBay are stolen. Motorola and Scientific Atlantic, the companies that make those boxes, don't generally sell them to the public. A lot of times the boxes on Craigslist and eBay have come from customers who get their service shut off for non-payment, never turn it back on and never return the box. You're really taking a gamble that the box you are buying wasn't \"stolen\" from your provider, because if it was they'll never activate it for you. Further, not all cable boxes work with all head-end systems. If you're insistent on buying your own, find out what models your cable company uses first and look for one of those.

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Paladin656
February 22, 2009 6:37 PM
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I used to work in a cable call center. I somehow survived without hanging myself by the phone cord.... Anyway, as much as I hate to admit it, this may not be the rep or supervisors fault. This may be a training or communication issue within the company.

As someone pointed out, their (full) basic service may require a box now, but due to must carry regulations, you should still get the local channels on a box free plan. Usually amounted by about 14 channels or so on that plan with my company.

Now it may be like my center, servicing so many areas with so many conflicting rules and packages. They simply may not have -known- that they should be offering the local channel only basic.

Of course it's also true, and probably more likely, that the company leans on the supervisors and the supervisors lean on the agents, and so the agents lean on the customers like this. I hate it, but it does happen.

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attackgypsy
February 22, 2009 6:40 PM
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I used to work for Cablevision, in their tech support for internet and voip. They tried to get us to do the upselling for services as well, but that flopped.

Did you know that 2 years ago, their tech support department got a new director? he was from t-Mobile. The first thing he said to the techs was \"You're not tech support reps. You're customer service reps who do a little technical work on the side.\"

Yeah, half the building quit that day, they were so insulted. To my knowledge, he never said it again.

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Paladin656
February 22, 2009 6:45 PM
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@attackgypsy:

My call center wasn't CableVision, but had almost the exact thing happen. I worked in tech, but was expected to upsell upsell upsell. It's one of the reasons I'm not there anymore. I'm not a sales guy, I'm a tech guy. I'm better at fixing stuff than selling it.

Don't know if he got the same warm reception as your guy did or not, it happened just before I joined, but it wouldn't surprise me to find it did.

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Wombatish
February 22, 2009 6:52 PM
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What does \"Digital Cable Ready\" (or \"DCR\") mean?

Today, a television designated \"Digital Cable Ready\" (or \"DCR\") is able, when used in conjunction with a separate CableCARD™ module, to receive one-way digital cable signals - with full image quality - without the need for a traditional cable set-top box.

If the TV was Digital Cable Ready (which I'm guessing is the case) then he needs -no- set top box, regardless of whether the signal is digital or analog.

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3 replies
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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 6:56 PM
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@Wombatish:
While your right about the CableCARD issues, I think your making quite a leap in logic in assuming the subscriber involved here has a \"DCR\". He's 95 and has been using over-the-air. I think it's unlikely that he has a fairly new, fairly expensive CableCARD ready TV. More likely, he's got an older TV that is simply \"Cable\" ready (in the analog sense).

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Wombatish
February 22, 2009 7:48 PM
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@Pylon83: The guy works for a communications firm that does TV stuff and is doing this for his boss's dad.

I just assumed the TV was new, and that the rabbit ears were on the old TV.

Looks like I read it wrong, which is my bad.

But still, if the issues was needing the digital box, why didn't the rep/supervisor just -say- that?
And why did they go ahead and approve it anyway?

Still an upsell.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 7:56 PM
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@Wombatish:
I totally agree that in the end it seems that it was just an up-sell. My problem is with the way it unfolded on the customers end. He jumped to the immediate conclusion, solely because he works in \"home theater installations\", that the rep was just wrong. He didn't ask why (though the rep should have offered), he didn't ask if they'd simply stopped analog service, he just told the rep he was wrong. I'm in no way saying the rep was correct, but merely that they were both wrong. The customer for insisting, without further inquiry, that he was right because he's smarter than the rep, and the rep for not substantiating his claim that the box was required.

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Wombatish
February 22, 2009 6:54 PM
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@Wombatish: Especially since he just wanted channels 2-12, this is probably the best set up for a 90 year old man. He will be able to change the channel with the TV's remote, just like with the rabbit ears.

No extra remote, no on screen channel guide, no PPV, no DVR.

Just simple, basic, service.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 6:54 PM
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I can't yet find the actual FCC order/opinion, but here is an article that outlines the current must-carry rules, particularly with regard to dual-carriage. Essentially, if the cable operator still transmits ANYTHING in analog, they have to transmit all of the must-carry stations in analog. However, if they choose to go all-digital, they are excepted from the dual-carriage requirement provided they ensure that every subscriber is provided with a box. However, there is no requirement that the box be provided at no charge. I think the essence of that requirement is to ensure the operators have sufficient boxes on-hand to service all of their customers.

\"Last September, the FCC said hybrid analog-digital cable operators had to carry must carry stations in analog and digital until 2012. All-digital cable systems were exempt from any dual-carriage obligation, however.\"

[www.multichannel.com]

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lihtox
February 22, 2009 6:59 PM
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When the problem is with ONE agent like this (and not even the supervisor), it's safer to assume that the agent is an idiot and/or misinformed (probably the latter; how often does someone call in asking for basic-basic service?), then to assume that this is some conspiracy on the part of the company.

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harlock_JDS
February 23, 2009 1:13 AM
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@lihtox:

Cablevision CS reps are rewarded on upsells and most put that ahead of actually providing cusutomer service.

I had a reschedule a installation because the installer didn't have what he needed when he showed up. The rep told me it would be a month and a half wait UNLESS i opted for their triple play package (aka added phone service) where the wait would only be a few days because 'We offer good service to out good customers'. I told him it was in his best interest to get me the soonest date possible because i would be calling sat tv and Verizon to see if they could be in before whatever date he gave me.

I got a date a week and a half away, the next day i called back, got a different rep and got a reinstall that same day.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 7:01 PM
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@lihtox:
Very true. The agents probably/usually get commission on the boxes and have a financial incentive to push them on people.

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Stephen Brooks
February 22, 2009 7:04 PM
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Comcast does this exact same thing. I had to wait in a long line and they told approx 10 customers this, whom in turn got the cable box. F them. I even told the one customer, and they were mad.

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Ajh
February 22, 2009 7:10 PM
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Comcast says oh our basic service is $40(ish) and I said uhm no I want the basic service on the website for $20. The rep responded \"But that's just broadcast channels you don't want that!\"

Why would I want basic cable when everything I watch is on broadcast stations??

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Ryan Theriault
February 22, 2009 7:12 PM
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well, you're actually reading it wrong.

\"This may require customers with analog televisions to get a set-top box.\"
if the TV is digital cable ready, it means it is NOT an analog tv. AKA, not needing one of the company's \"cable boxes\".

Pretty simple.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 7:21 PM
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@Ryan Theriault:
The OP's letter doesn't indicate that the TV is \"digital cable ready\", it just indicates the TV is \"Cable-ready\". As I stated above, it's quite a leap in logic to assume that a 95 year old man, who has been watching only OTA TV would have a new, fairly expensive Digital Cable Ready TV. Not that it's impossible, but I think the safer assumption is that he has an older, analog \"cable ready\" TV.

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SilverStar95
February 22, 2009 7:24 PM
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It's entirely possible that Cablevision may have done something like what Shaw is piloting up here in Canada: The building in question may have been \"upgraded\" to be digital-only, as a measure to prevent cable theft. If that's the case, then a cable box would be required, to decode the digital stream into something the TV can use. Without the box, the TV can't decode the encrypted signal that cable companies tend to use.

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CmdX
February 22, 2009 11:58 PM
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@SilverStar95: the reason to go to 'digital' has almost nothing to do with preventing cable theft and absolutely everything to do with having more (mostly HD) channels on the same amount of frequencies. Maybe a few people at the theft prevention division at the cable company like the idea of having digital cable, but that isn't the reason.

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 7:29 PM
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@SilverStar95:
In the US, they can't do it building-by-building. Dual-carriage must-carry rules apply if the cable operator in question transmits ANY analog signals over the system. If the entire system in the area is all-digital, they can require boxes for ALL channels, but if it's not 100% digital-only, what Shaw is doing in Canada would not be tolerated by the FCC.

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supergaijin
February 22, 2009 7:33 PM
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This isn't specific to Cablevision. I have TiVos with cablecards and my bill EVERY month has the rental fee for that cards (no problem) PLUS an HD cable box *I DON'T HAVE*. When I have hours of free time to argue, I occasionally call them and complain and they will not budge from the \"fact\" that to get HD service you MUST have a cable box (completely ignoring the fact that cablecard+TiVo Series 3 IS the cable box in my house) and they will not remove the charge.


It's extremely frustrating.

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formergr
February 23, 2009 1:34 AM
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@supergaijin: I'm in the same boat and may have finally \"won\". I called for tech support one night when my cable was out (turns out it was just a problem with the wall jack), and somehow lucked out and reached a personable, helpful(!!) Comcast rep.

While he was checking my account to see what cable card I had so he could send a reset signal or whatever to it, he saw that I was being charged for an extra HD cable box. He asked me about 3 times how many tvs I have, and how many boxes. I told him I had no box, just a Tivo Series 3 with cards. He seemed confused (as they all are with this; they just haven't received the proper training on Tivos w/ cards), but instead of just ignoring it, he said he was removing the \"extra\" box from the account and reimbursing me back 6 months. I won't believe it until I see my next bill, but here's hoping!

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Pylon83
February 23, 2009 2:17 AM
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@formergr:
Comcast is totally worthless re: CableCARD support. I've only had to call a couple of times, but each time they want to know what kind of \"Digital Box\" I have and want to try and send signals to it, have me unplug it, etc. I tell them I have a TiVo w/ CableCARD and they basically freeze up. Horrible, Horrible CableCARD training. Of course, I can see them having little incentive to train thoroughly on it, as those of us with the TiVo's are a very small minority of their business, and we're a thorn in their side at that.

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Geoffrey Sperl
February 24, 2009 5:19 AM
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@Pylon83: I will say, in Metro Detroit, I had no issues with Comcast and CableCARD when I still had cable. My bill claimed the cards were \"TiVo Cards,\" but they charged ~$2/month for them (nothing for the first card, $2 for each additional) and that was it.

Granted, I had to walk the installer through the steps when he came out to \"install\" the cards (I was the first one he had ever used them for), but it still went smoothly.

Again... I know, very well, that I was lucky. I'm assuming that one of the local management types at Comcast has a TiVo and that's why things are easier around here...

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Pylon83
February 22, 2009 7:58 PM
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@supergaijin:
I dealt with Comcast and CableCARDs for my TivoHD. What it all boils down to is the fact that the cable companies despise CableCARDs. They are very signal sensitive, they take away revenue from boxes/DVR rentals, and they generate long, drawn out technical support calls. Though in my opinion, if your being charged for a box you don't have, you're either a) not barking up the RIGHT tree, or b) not barking loud enough.

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Anonymous
February 22, 2009 7:36 PM
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if the customer was receiving his tv via desktop rabbit ear antenna, all he had to do was get a converter box and probably a newer antenna tunes to the digital signals, no need for basic cable at all.that is the set up i am going to do. i use a rooftop antenna now, i get very good reception of my local channels.as far as cable charging for a box, many municipalities have agreements with cable vision that goes back to when the cable companies were granted a license to operate in the towns that specifies that they cannot charge for a box for local channels, that is the way it is in specific,Yonkers NY

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richcreamerybutter
February 22, 2009 7:38 PM
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I'm not intentionally trying to get off topic with this post, but there are so many similarities between this and yesterday's cable posts (and some of the same issues are appearing in each thread). Here is my summary for both:

* If you're lucky, you might have a choice between two cable companies. In any case, they are going to force you to purchase shit you will never watch to get what you want (even in the midst of a 5am haze). Some retail equivalent might exist, but I really cannot think of any other industry that will not allow you to buy one thing without forcing another one upon you (you don't even have to buy the whole cd these days).

* Despite installing the proper equipment, some of us will not be able to enjoy a digital signal once the conversion is complete. Sucks to be us, huh? Get basic cable you say? Well...

* as seen in this story, even getting very basic service can require enduring much trickery and deceitfulness.

* Apparently if I don't watch 15 minutes of car (Ford and GM to boot!) and sexist advertising per program, I am cheating someone out of revenue. Boo hoo. I don't live in a car-friendly area, and even if I desired one I would never be able to afford it. Plus, if they want me to watch their ads, they need to realize I'm not a frat boy (even if I started transitioning hormones and began to age backwards).

* Most of us do not shoplift clothing and food. However, we tend to have a great variety and price/quality range for these items, as well as many outlets to choose from. Retailers are also not going to force us to purchase things we don't need. It's important to realize this before getting morally outraged when some choose to obtain their programming by other means. It's easy to apply what you consider to be an objective view on \"stealing,\" except that the cable companies aren't even playing fair themselves.

Many realize that the current tiered cable model (as well as their general service) is outdated and frankly, pretty immoral itself. If the cable industry was ethical and reasonable in its practices, more would pay for service.

Itunes and Emusic have enabled us to exercise more choice in music and programming options, so bable companies need to get their shit together. I've worked for more than one online presence of a cable channel, and from what I understand, the cable monopoly tends to have them by the balls (correct me if I'm wrong here). I definitely don't want to cheat them of revenue, but they really need to find a way to break free of their obligations and offer their content via some third party subscription service.

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JustThatGuy3
February 22, 2009 8:01 PM
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@richcreamerybutter:

\"from what I understand, the cable monopoly tends to have them by the balls (correct me if I'm wrong here)\"

You're wrong there. From a national perspective, cable's anything but a monopoly (about 2/3 of total pay TV, and dropping 2-3% of market share every year).

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richcreamerybutter
February 22, 2009 8:36 PM
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@JustThatGuy3: Good to know. I'm going by the information given to me from those on the broadcasting end, in terms of programming. I also know it's much more complicated than that, having worked for one cable channel owned by one of the cable companies (as opposed to a network not directly affiliated).

Anyway, I'll continue to dream of that subscription service.

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JustThatGuy3
February 23, 2009 12:46 PM
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@richcreamerybutter:


Honestly, a move away from a tiering model, and toward a la carte, would be bad for both cable/satellite companies and programmers, but worse for programmers. A whole bunch of channels would just go away, since they can't support themselves without being bundled with others. ESPN would be fine, but niche channels (which include minority and women's programming) would be history - goodbye BET, Lifetime, We, etc. Some would say \"well, that's fine by me,\" and that's a fair position to take, but we shouldn't doubt that it would be the impact.

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supercereal
February 22, 2009 9:23 PM
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@starbreiz: Given that it's Brooklyn, an antenna should be able to pick up at least something. Even with buildings and whatnot around, it seems that the broadcast antennas for every major station are within 1-10 miles away.

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David Brodbeck
February 23, 2009 6:05 PM
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@supercereal: Unfortunately, the new digital signals don't deal well with multipath -- a situation where a signal reflects off building or terrain. On analog TV this causes ghosting, but on digital it makes the signal unusable. The result is there are people who are in major cities who are within sight of broadcast towers but have a very difficult time getting a usable digital signal.

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Chongo
February 22, 2009 9:43 PM
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I don't think its a technical requirement, seeing as how if you have basic internet services you usually get an analog signal... But it might just be cablevisions rules that all new services need a box. This is what happened to me in Chicago for Comcast. I wound up letting them do their thing by installing it, but then I just returned it a couple months later.

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CmdX
February 22, 2009 11:54 PM
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Even the most 'basic' cable packages come with a lot of channels. If the company has switched to an entirely digital system (or is going to within a short time period) then the only way you could receive the signal is with a cablecard (and not even that if they are doing Switched Digital Video)

And even if they haven't, they are probably planning on doing it soon, so they don't want to send contractors out to ALL of their customers to give them cable boxes when they could have just given them one to begin with.

If I was the cable company I would require all my customers to get boxes too. Consider the $5 fee part of the cost of having cable.

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joeblack13
February 23, 2009 12:02 AM
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RCN tried the same thing with me here in DC. I asked if there was any other recourse than to pay the extra for the cable box. The rep told me that this was the only option, so I asked to be transferred to cancellations and had the nice lady there take the corresponding charge off my bill. Plus an extra dollar for good measure. :)

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CmdX
February 23, 2009 11:09 AM
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@joeblack13: Being a fellow RCN customer in Chicago who has kept track of these things RCN has gone entirely digital in (almost) all of their markets, which allows them to put more HD channels in their lineup. The only channels you can receive without a box or a cablecard are the locals and QVC/Shop-at-home. They are not, however, required to provide you service without a box. You are probably paying for a lot of stuff you aren't getting because you don't have the $5/month box.

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Anonymous
February 23, 2009 1:15 AM
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For what it's worth, Cablevision's lowest tier service (broadcast channels, stuff they get paid to carry like HSN, local news, and a public access channel), is called Broadcast Basic and the next package up is called Family Cable. You can get most of Family Cable without a box (some channels have been moved to digital for bandwidth purposes).

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Christopher Wilson
February 23, 2009 2:45 AM
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Cablevision in some areas, I believe brooklyn is one, has all channels as digital. You can't buy one of the boxes, and getting one and sticking your card in will not make it work as the box is linked to your account by the serial of the box. You can get a cable card based box and rent a cablecard for $2/month or so, but they aren't lying to you if you're in one of their areas more prone to cable theft.

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CmdX
February 23, 2009 11:03 AM
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@Christopher Wilson: Of course you cannot buy the Motorola / Scientific Atlantic boxes as those boxes and all their features (Electronic Program Guide, etc) are based on the cable-company's network. Those models are made by the manufacturer specifically to be rented out to cable customers and not to be bought. Think of it as a rental car that was designed by GM/Ford/whoever specifically for the rental car company and is a model made only for use as a rental car. You may think \"Well, I rent this car a lot, so I should really just be able to own it\" but in fact that car with its included features were never intended to be purchased by the end user, and thus you cannot buy the car outright.

Besides, you aren't locked into using their boxes, you can buy devices that have been pre-certified by cablelabs. That means a cablecard-ready TV, a pre-built Windows Media Home Theater systems and/or the TiVo Series 3/HD/HD XL.

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Anonymous
February 23, 2009 4:33 AM
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I strongly urge anyone who experiences these types of deceptive and unfair practices to file a complaint with the FCC. I did this when I had cablevision and they followed up and required a personal response to me directly.

http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm

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CmdX
February 23, 2009 10:50 AM
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People, the box is part of the cost of having cable service. Perhaps they should just increase your bill by $5 and give you the box 'for free.' In fact, a lot of cable plans have the box included in the price of the plan.

It's the cable company's network and they have the right to decide if you should use a cable box or not. If they are doing an all-digital switch and require everyone to get a box or a cablecard then that is not only within their right it is better for most of the rest of their customers who want a crisp digital picture and more HD channels.

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thrlsekr
February 23, 2009 1:18 PM
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Don't know if anyone commented on this but the CSR was right. You need the box for BASIC Cable if they were giving you HBO for free. The OP should have asked for LIFELINE cable. LIFELINE is the term used by the cable companies for channels 2 thru 12. I believe it was a FCC mandate for them to offer the service but just like AT&T with their $10 DSL it is a be hassle to get it.
Went through the same thing here in South Florida. As in any technology if you don't know the terminology you will always have issues. Not withstanding I'm sure the CSR probably didn't know about LIFELINE either.

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Elpon
February 23, 2009 1:42 PM
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Cablevision has scammed both my mom's house and the house I live in at school. I tried to warn both her and my friend incharge of it but sadly they were both fell for it. It really is sickening that they are still trying to swindle everybody with these boxes. Does anyone know if Cablevision is going to cracked down on anytime soon?

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TheFuzz53
February 23, 2009 2:58 PM
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Just buy the guy a DTV Converter box and get rid of the cable.

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JGKojak
February 23, 2009 3:33 PM
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This happened to my mom when she signed up with Comcast-- they gave her a box she didn't want/need JUST so they could force her to enjoy 3 free months of HBO. I took the box back (her TV is cable ready) and attempted to have her only be charged for basic-- and had the same issue-- get a supervisor.

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Shadowman615
February 23, 2009 4:43 PM
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\"Buddy if you think I'm disrespecting you now, you are about to be in a world of shit.\"

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vastrightwing
February 23, 2009 5:52 PM
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Every time I read this story(s) I ask myself the same question: Why on earth are people supporting Comcast, Cablevision, TW, Cox, Rogers, etc. There is Free TV (w/$40 converter), Satellite, YouTube, books, radio, iPods, and the list goes on. I say, go for it CV! You're not charging enough yet for the privilege of abusing people.

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Anonymous
February 23, 2009 10:21 PM
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About 4 years ago, I had a Comcast contract company try to do the same thing to me...too bad I was naive. The guy showed up at 8:30pm on a Thursday night and tells me, \"I'm here to schedule your digital box installation.\" I had Enhanced Basic cable and didn't order anything that required a box and told him so. He told me, \"when they switch over to digital, you have to have a box or else it won't work.\" So I got suckered into a 6 month Bronze package for 60 bucks, but he claimed I could drop back to Enhanced basic at the end of the 6 month 'trial' period.

On Saturday, the guy comes to install the digital cable box and I again question him about needing it. He repeats that when the network goes digital the following year, I have to have the box. So, for 3 months, I enjoyed incredibly slow channel surfing and lookups along with more quality problems than in the previous 3 years. The fourth month I get a bill for 120 bucks. I called Comcast to ask why I'm getting billed double when I'm on a 6 month trial. The rep was very nice about it and was confused about where I got this 6 month deal, but she extended it an additional 3 months. I asked about needing the cable box just for enhanced basic and she said no, I didn't need it.

I found out through her that the company that came to my house and told me I had to have the box was a contracted company for some of their work. I gave her the names of the guys that lied to me and the numbers on the work order. At the end of that 3 months, I returned the box and got my enhanced cable back normally.

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Justinh6
February 23, 2009 11:07 PM
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Sounds like they are trying to avoid cable theft here guys.

Apartment buildings are easy to split cable from unit to unit, avoid paying bills all together.

If they are going to boxes that decrypt the data, you will need a box to get ANY signal.

It would be pretty terrible if they charged people a 7 dollar box fee on top of a 15 dollar service.

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Anonymous
February 24, 2009 2:29 AM
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As I understand it, not only is the analog transmission of signals by broadcasters going to cease, as of a new June date, the cable companies will also cease putting analog signals over their cables. This will require a box to tune and convert these signals to analog for the old analog TV's. The term \"cable ready\" refers only to the set, be it a TV or VCR, being able to tune the cable frquencies that were being used by the cable companies to send analog signals over the cable. Thses frequencies are different than those used by broadcasters and not tunable by either VHF or UHF tuners and actually were designated by alphabetic designations. Thses channels were being used for the cable and satelite stations that were not actually being \"broadcast\" over the air or receiveable by antenna.

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Anonymous
February 24, 2009 1:02 PM
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I was living in Brooklyn when Cablevision first started provided service there. One thing I remember was that the cable that ran into the house and into the cable box had an electrical charge that was used/removed by the cable box. Attaching it directly to the TV was risking damage. I always assumed they did this just to force their customers into renting the boxes.

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Anonymous
February 24, 2009 2:20 PM
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I used to work for cablevision and upselling is all they force feed you. They get paid on revenue on \"Io\" there goal is to get family service or better into your home then thats considered a an actual sale. Asking for broadcast basic is the worst thing you can do, you will be treated like scum and called a deadbeat because all they get is revenue no actual sale. Now the sales rep will tell you that it would be more expensive to get broadcast basic the first month than it would be to just get the io family. The reason for this is that with broadcast basic they charge you an outrages fee of $49.95 plus the first month of broadcast basic which its like 12 something so they tell you to get the io family for 34.95 and the intall fee is 9.99 here the catch they can only get paid if you keep the service for the whole full month. If you call in to downgrade they lose the sale. So their goal is to tell you to call back after the 30 days. Cablevision is shady but they do pay their employees very well, the company goal is to expand but the sales rep goal is to just meet quota every call a rep gets can go against them if they didnt sell, they would be repremended and even fired if they do not meet the sales requirement. now they keep a score on what pays everything is measure individually. video which is cable service is the highest, ool and ov which is their internet and their phone does not pay out as much as their video but its still good money. now their extra programs like premium channels, io, or extra equiptment like the io boxes thats all just revenue so the goal is to just sell the triple play. Now in regards to the article written the sales rep was selling you io family even tho you asked for basic, the get away with this because for them family service is basic service so that would have been a video sale and you would have been a very unhappy costumer when you would hae gotten a bill for more than what u asked for. any other question feel free to write to me @ papishampoo163@tmail.com

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Anonymous
April 13, 2009 2:28 PM
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When is Cablevision instituting a la carte cable service?

I've been told a number of times by Cablevision employees that this is in the works...(their Customer 'advisory' program is nothing more than market research.)

I think Cable customers should be able to turn off cable channels that they are never watching and receive a discount on their monthly service.

I would immediately shut off News12 (yawn) all Fox affiliates (yuk) the Food Network (I'm trying to stay healthy) any channels that feature religious programming, etc.. etc...

It would be nice to pay for *only* the channels I watch regularly, and to activate other single channels I am interested in without having to subscribe to expensive 'packages' every month.

Call cable today and request Cablevision a la carte!!!

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