Did that happen in Portland, Oregon by chance ? I"m not proud of this fact, but I was a shoplifter in my twenties . That scenario sounds EXACTLY what I did. I had my foot
on the gas, driver on the brakes. I was stealing a T.V , and all the employees
ran out to the car . Well, I dropped the thing going out the front door, and the noise alerted people. I picked it up , put it back in the shopping card and proceeded to wheel it to my car, where my friend waited on the drivers side . We got it in the back seat , when they came running , yelling, all we want is the T.v back, so the drivers door was open, I reached over
and pushed it out , and we took off with them chasing us . And also, I remember
when Fred Meyers used to announce , " Mr or Mrs Cash, please come to the customer
service desk " That meant security .

I'm 50 years old. I don't do that anymore . Just wondered if you were talking about Portland, Oregon.

One guy ran out and jumped in the passenger side of a car. The driver knew he was busted because we have the plate so he has hit foot on the break, the passenger has his foot on the gas and there is smoke pouring out of the transmission. Employees are all around the car (but not in front). Eventually the passenger shoves the driver out of the car since we had the door open and he takes off.

The first reason is safety. As an employee, we were not allowed to chase shoplifters for this sole reason. We have no way of knowing if the shoplifter is armed, or dangerous. For all I know the person could be carrying a knife - I for one don't want to risk gettign stabbed - so I never chased shoplifters.

The second reason is liability. Oddly enough, I could get sued for stopping a shoplifter - say, if they got hurt while I was stopping them.

At least, that's what my manager told me.

More often that not, it's just better to let shoplifters go; because everyone is potentially dangerous.

guys were caught when they tried to sell them on craigslist, cop went to their place and arrested them, sent the store some photos.

I think were the only BBY that records serial numbers for stuff like game consoles. It's extra work, but it's a lot of fun.

Oh and isn't shrink the reason prices go up? Don't cha want to stop shoplifters?

@Zatnikitelman: As a former retail monkey, and as others have said here, in most retail stores you're trained not to touch anyone, under any circumstances, even if they're robbing the store. It has to do with liability issues, to my understanding.

But there are two things that other people have mentioned that make this case rediculous. First, those only technically apply when you're working at the store. Since he had punched out for his break, he was not any longer working for the store, and as he says, was acting as a private citizen. Plus he wasn't on store property, and is free to act as he pleases.

The store managers are being jerks.

If he's off store property, is he a customer any more? If he was off company time, was working "for" the company any more?

OK.

And, yeah, you can't touch people much less fight them. Clerk was lucky he didn't get arrested.

Pass a law that says that anything that happens to a person while that person is committing a crime is entirely at their OWN liability. By committing the crime, they forfeit their right to sue others, and anyone else who suffers a loss due to the crime can sue the perp for that loss. And no limitation on what can be done to stop the criminal caught in the act, including shooting them. Yes, that's harsh, but after the first couple of times, the word will spread that crime has real risks again, and I guarantee the crime rate will go down.

By not doing this, we end up punishing the good guys and rewarding the bad guys. Enough of that. There used to be a "reasonable man" test applied to whether actions were justified - it was destroyed by liberal courts legislating by precedent - that should likewise be restored in a form that will be more difficult for courts to ignore. In the case cited, most reasonable people would probably think that the employee was acting responsibly, and should have been held blameless.

Think for a second if the US Airways pilot who put the plane down safely in the Hudson River had his decision-making complicated or constrained by such rules based on liability and had instead chosen to try to fly on to an airport, not made it, and crashed into a densely populated area. The reality is that artificial rules and regulations are trumping common sense in just exactly that way every day and in most cases we don't see the true costs (the shoplifting perp who is allowed to get away and then goes on to kill someone, for example).

I would also like to point out Apple. Overpriced and going strong.

I thought we were looking out for consumer interests on this blog, but most comments here seem to be towing the corporate party line.

If you wrongfully detain someone, it's a major, major lawsuit.

Published: Thursday December 27, 2007, 8:15 AM

@humphrmi: I think there is also a valid argument beyond liability from any injuries or lawsuits from the shoplifter. Do you really want any employees potentially getting injured or killed trying to stop someone?

@karmaghost: "Thanks McDonald's Hot Coffee Lady!"

Thanks people that do not know facts and spout off knee-jerk nonsense!

Sorry, but if you're accused of a crime and then you book it for the door, I'd say that you're automatically admitting your guilt, just like when people book it from the cops. Why would you bother if you were innocent? I don't normally like getting into foot pursuits over a misunderstanding.

Back on topic, most companies will have theft insurance that they can make a claim on when a shoplifter takes off with some merchandise. However, if either the shoplifter or the employee is injured when an employee steps in and tries to stop the theif, then it can get very expensive.

In this case, the manager should be punished in some way for asking the employee for help when they were not supposed to. I know "following orders" is not an excuse for doing something wrong, but "giving orders" should still be punished.

I think the best way is for our society to grow the fuck up and realize that if you do something other people consider wrong and are caught, you're going to have to face the consequences, whether it's a foot pursuit or getting your ass tackled to the ground. Don't do the crime if you don't want a face full of asphalt.

Blatant shoplifting (picking up and walking out without concealment) and refusal to stop should be grounds for losing certain civil rights, like suing for damages incurred during detainment.

If you blatantly steal something and expect to walk out like nothing happened, your deserve to have your ass handed to you in the parking lot.

@severn123: And that's the way we like it here.

@JakeChance84: You can sue for anything. Winning is another matter all together.

@Gstein: Yes, per the article, he had been trained not to have physical contact with a customer, at all.

@Shadowman615: It does sound like the manager is covering his own ass, here. Unfortunately, the opporunity for ass-covering exists because J.S. broke the rules.

Again, firing is probably too harsh, but J.S. was not watching a shoplifter as an uninterested party, but as an agent of the company that had trained him to act differently than he acted.

I once saw someone shoplifting in a store (not Whole Foods), and I told the employees that there was a person shoplifting, what he was shoplifting, what aisle he was in, and what he looked like.

Their reaction was so WEIRD. They said, "Is he black?" and when I replied that he was, they all went back to work and pretended like I hadn't said anything.

Not to mention his manager asked for assistance with the shoplifter. And it was off company property that he touched him.

Get a lawyer!

He was CLOCKED OUT so doesnt that mean he was on his own time?

I would turn around and sue for a year or two worth of salary.

That said, if I witness any crime I will notify security and nothing else. I am not Dirty Harry, ready to battle it out with some thief, even if I know I could handle myself.

My duty is to return home to my family and make sure they are taken care of. Not to save our college a few bucks from some dumb thief.

Personally, I think the best solution is security cameras and monitors to remind potential theieves there will be evidence on them. In areas with a high crime rate, a police officer near the front door is also a good idea, and the local police force will likely agree to it, since the store needs to be protected and grocery stores are a place with a high concentration of people.

I've also heard that Whole Foods is a terrible employer anyway, so this is not a surprise.

I guess I understand from an insurance and safety point of view, but it still seems excessive to fire him when the manager asked for help.

What more could the employee do if all the manager could do is talk to the shoplifter?

It's the same where I work; don't touch the shoplifter! For lots of reasons, but mainly because they have to draw the line somewhere, so they might as well make it the most cautious line possible.

While I sympathize with the guy a bit, man, chasing people across Ann Arbor streets is not really a good idea. And those are kind of busy streets.

That is my reaction also. When I worked at retail, we were instruct to ask someone to return to the register if the gate alarms went off, but NEVER to obstruct them, touch them, or follow them. This was for liability and safety reasons.

So, it strikes me as odd that it was OK to follow this shoplifter into the parking lot and try to corner him, but not to tackle him to the ground. If you can't touch the shoplifter, you shouldn't be confrontational at all.

Companies really can't do anything right in your eyes can they?

we would politely ask them to come with us and not make a scene. usually shoplifters (the non-pathological ones) are very passive and will comply. For the others, we would hand over the video of them (we had pan-tilt-zoom cameras) so getting a match of a student to the ID database wasn't too hard.

@thesadtomato: Not pro-theft as such, I just hate Whole Foods. Like Wal-Mart, they move in and put smaller stores out of business. They've taken over countless independant grocery stores and small chains Bread and Circuses in Boston, Fresh Fields on the east coast, etc.

I shop at a natural/organic grocery, so I don't care about the high cost of organic food, but having someone shoplift a bag from them is just someone sucking a tiny drop from the huge teat that is Whole Foods. They only do billions of dollars a year in revenue.

Sucks big time, but you're not supposed to grab a customer.

I miss the old days of retail. I used to work at a store in Malden MA. We had a sign right at the front counter.

It said : "Shoplifting is a CRIME, punishable by Assault and Battery."

@CarnageSIS: A citizen can only arrest someone who committing a felony.

Thats why Skynet will destroy humanity.
For all the common sense decisions that defy idiotic man-made policies.

@CarnageSIS: Just because you are off the clock doesn't limit the employer's ability to fire you. If you go next door to the liquor store and announce "Whole Foods sucks" to everyone while your manager is getting his daily pint of vodka for breakfast, I'm guessing he can fire you. If you clock out and pinch the behinds of all the men and women you see in the parking lot on the way to your car, I'll bet they can fire you. If you use your Facebook page to create a "25 ways to rip off Whole Foods", you can consider yourself terminated.

Judge Judy always calls people on this. If you have a problem while you are committing a crime or an illegal or unethical act, then you have no right to come into court and sue them. She calls it the "doctrine of clean hands." I don't know if that is an actual legal term, but it's a ton of fun watching her bust people over the head with it.

If it's not true, it oughta be.

It all goes back to some incident where an employee tackled a shoplifter, the shoplifter sued for whatever, and won.

@dadelus: Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying there is no such thing. Many state laws allow citizens to detain criminals for felonies and/or thefts. What I was saying was that the phrase "citizens arrest" is something straight off television, and you probably won't find that phrase in many states' laws if any.

Ah ha ha ha, that's great.

I remember Happy Harry's. I lived in DE for a short while. We always used to make jokes about why Harry was so Happy!

This pisses me off because allowing theft = higher prices for honest people, and WP is the only place in town that carries the local dairy's milk and eggs I prefer.

.."after a manager asked for help with a shoplifter"

Why would the manager ask for help then? What was he hoping to accomplish? ..That he could convince the shoplifter to realize "Hey you know what you're right..let me give this back"

Once the guy is out the door the manager should have just let it go. Sucks to be Schlutz

Only place that I ever worked at that let us stop shoplifters was a Kmart I worked at when I was 16 9 years ago. The cart pushers tackled several shop lifters in the parking lot. That place also went out of business like a year after I worked there. Maybe no one cared about the policies.

In the end the manager should be fired for asking for help from other employees when he had no intention of stopping the guy.

Bottom line, the employee should not have chased after the alleged shoplifter off property.

It may be policy but surely it should be considered on a case by case basis.

Sure there are guidelines on what to do in the situation to ensure the safety of the employee and to make sure the company doesnt get sued.

In this case the empolyee wasnt hurt so at most I would say a slap on the wrist and reiterate the guidelines.

With regards to protecting the store from being sued, well thats a different kettle of fish but I dont think there should be any grounds for the thief doing any suing the moment he tried any thievery.....

I don't see why they fired him though, liability does not end with termination of the parties involved. Retrain him perhaps if its that big of a deal. And the whole, "Oh, you're more valuable than a 10 dollar steak." While yes, its true, how does that justify the man getting fired?

My personal favorite is the fact that IF a thief breaks into your home and say slips on a toy your child left out, falls and injures himself, he can then sue you. Legally, it doesn't matter that you never invited him in, his entry (as well as the acts he intended to commit) was illegal, and you were probably asleep at the time.

This isn't true for all parts of the country. For example, there are some parts where you can legally kill a trespasser on your property. You'd better shoot him dead though. If you only injure him, he could sue you for the medical bills + tort.

- Shoplifter ends up having a weapon and attacks you. You could face serious injury, which could result in you suing your company.
- Shoplifter ends up being false accused and is innocent. Since you touched him (or worse if you actually attack him), he has grounds to sue the store and you.

Let the professionals apprehend the shoplifter. Follow him as far as you can, get his description and license plate # and call the police, but do not touch him. Let the pros do that.

@Canino: Not true, there is such a thing as a citizens arrest, but there are definitely rules that apply and they all vary by state. The only rule that applies across most states is that citizens who witness a felony are allowed (and in some states impelled) to arrest a subject and hold them till authorities arrive or immediately transport them to the authorites. Since this was not a felony the store employee may have been in violation of state law.

[www.criminalattorney.com]

@DrGirlfriend: Forgot to add, the employee's family, if he were to be permanently disabled or die as a result of the altercation, will probably come looking for compensation. And, what is primary on our minds but likely not on the company's, is the simple issue of safety.

Really, it's just a bad, bad idea for an employee to get physically involved. I don't know if firing an employee is the right thing to do if the guy has never done this before, but I suppose employers want to send a very clear message that employees shoudln't do this.

@mergatroy6: It's not just getting sued. if the employee gets hurt, then worker's comp comes into the picture, the guy might have to miss work, etc. In the end, the cost of the stolen merchandise is smaller than all the different liability scenarios that the employer would face if an employee got physically involved in restraining a shoplifter.

@nsv: Yes... I completely agree. Everyone seems to forget this fact. The employee was responding to a specfic request for assistance in apprehending a suspected shoplifter from his manager. This one detail should save him from termination.

In fact, why in the world was the manager running around outside trying to chase this guy? If anyone should know company policy, it should be him -- and he should suffer the consequences of making a bad decision.

I really don't know where to draw the line. Petty crime needs consequences, and the scumbag should have been arrested. But I also don't want to empower loss prevention ninjas to hassle legitimate customers and crack a few heads.

The reason? Someone had plucked a PSOne (technically the regular size original Playstation) off a display and walked out the door to a getaway car already warmed up and ready to go. They got the plates apparently, but no one made an attempt to stop him. The guy I had covering for me in the games section wasn't paying attention - I suspect he was talking to his girlfriend that also worked there - and allowed that to happen.

If I was there would I have gone after the person? Probably not, since I don't want to die over a video game.

Absolutely correct he should not have touched him.

1) "Citizens arrest" is a myth.

2) Most stores tell their employees to not be a hero- what if that shoplifter had a gun or knife?

3) Had that shoplifter been disabled (i.e. have a developmental disability) or in some way been impaired, using physical violence would be a serious issue for the store.

4) Aren't we all saying we don't have to show our receipts? I believe that is because if they want to accuse us of shoplifting, they need to make the accusation and call the police and prove it. Even though this is pretty clear proof, they still had no ability to contain the person. They would have been better off pointing their cell phone camera at him and getting a clean picture.

Personal safety is absolutely a concern in a situation like this, especially outside of the store. It goes both ways -- you have to prevent both stabbings and guys like the Best Buy loss prevention ninja.

In Deadwood, the shoplifter would have gotten a bullet in his brain.

My experience is so different, could it just be times? Back in 1985 at age 17 when I worked at a grocery store they would request a certain name over the intercom when there was a problem with a shop lifter. The name was fictional but we all knew that when a cashier requests that name come to register 4, it meant a shoplifter.

The sight of every employee converging on that location makes them bolt for the door 90% of time. We would chase them down and physically detain them till the police arrived. Such as sitting on them or just holding them down on the ground.

One guy ran out and jumped in the passenger side of a car. The driver knew he was busted because we have the plate so he has hit foot on the break, the passenger has his foot on the gas and there is smoke pouring out of the transmission. Employees are all around the car (but not in front). Eventually the passenger shoves the driver out of the car since we had the door open and he takes off.

My brother worked at a different store but same chain. He had similar stories.

There is something wrong in America that we're so afraid of getting sued we'd rather fire the employee who was acting in our best interest than pursue charges against a thief.

It seems, however, that shoving a customer out of the way when he's patiently waiting at the service desk is OK. Or at least that was my experience at the Whole Foods that recently opened near my house. My report of the incident via the WF website was, not surprisingly, ignored.

Not only that, but we don't know how this employee was trained. I've worked in stores that never told me what to do in the case of shoplifters.

Follow up: [blog.mlive.com]

@CarnageSIS: That's what I was thinking. A citizen's arrest is different. That quick and dirty tips site has the podcast from "Legal Lad" and he talked about this not that long ago. I wish I could get to it while at work.

Oh, it's a link to a story that's 13 months old.

Gotcha.

I understand the store policy angle, but as far as the state law angle goes you better know what you're doing before you go around telling people you're affecting a "citizens arrest". First, you'll probably not find those words in the laws of many states - that is a TV phrase. Second, if you have the right to detain someone you generally have the right to do so with the physical force necessary to do so. Going around yelling "Citizens Arrest!" and expecting someone to just stand there with you and wait for the cops is pretty stupid.

as a teenager i worked at a place called happy harry's (a delaware chain of drugstores, recently bought out by walgreens. booo), and it was the only place i've ever worked where we were allowed to touch shoplifters. maybe because it was local, family-owned-and-operated type of place?

kids used to come in and steal entire displays of those mach III razors. they'd take em to philly and sell them in chinatown for heroin money, according to a police officer who was called to the store for that exact issue. someone tried stealing the watch display once, too. i remember the manager valiantly chasing them through the parking lot and tackling them.

The commentors saying risking your life for $50 or $100 in food is foolish are absolutely true. However, since he was clocked out and the manager called for help, it sounds like it's a more complicated case. "Retraining" on what to do in the event of a shoplifter makes a lot more sense than firing an employee who came to the aid of a manager.

Hand them the cash register, give them the drawer. DON'T go to the car.

A co-worker of mine at a grocery store got killed for a package of steaks worth $10. He saw what was happening and alerted the manager. They tried to stop the thief at the door, and the bastard pulls a knife on him and stabs not only my co-worker, but the manager too. The manager survived, but my friend got stabbed in the heart and died right there at the scene. IT IS NOT WORTH IT! He was making $5.15 an hour then. Minimum wage. So sad. The cops did find the asshole that did it and now he's in prison. Was it really worth it for meat???

Another good friend of mine was a manager of a movie theater and tried to stop a mugging in the parking lot while on the clock and got fired. It's ridiculous, but I guess we just stand by and let these things happen.

But I wonder if that would even work. Probably not. The company would still be sued.

Other than negative publicity, I don't think much will happen to WF.

I'm surprised to see someone so pro-theft on this site.

@lemortede: yeah my cousin got busted for shoplifting (dumb it was like 40$ earrings or something) and i think as long as they don't walk out the door its technically not shoplifting because they still have the opportunity to "pay". At a place i worked we couldn't touch them but we could prevent them from leaving, how we were supposed to accomplish this i don't know.

@EllenRose: Really? I normally trust the accountants on something like this. if they have decided chasing the shoplifter and physically detaining him is more cost efficient for them , then it is likely more cost efficient for me.

If John Shcultz had been trained to not touch the guy, and he touched him, then he broke the rules.

Firing is probably too harsh, but chasing the guy was a foolish risk on everyone's parts.

@mbz32190: that was exactly what I was thinking. In fact, the 'touching' didnt even happen on Whole Foods' property.
Of course, now that there is publicity, the shoplifter could file charges for battery and sue the employee.

For example, if the employee is mistaken, then the accused shoplifter can sue for being injured or wrongfully restrained.

Or, if the employee is hurt then the company has to pay out disability and possibly deal with a lawsuit from the employee.

Similar thing to armed robberies. The policy at many places is that if there's an armed robbery, you just do what the thief says and don't try to be a hero, which may get you fired. Indeed, that has happened. I recall a story of a fast food manager that stopped an armed robbery in his restaurant by hitting the thief with something. He got fired for it because while he was lucky nothing bad happened, his actions could have meant somebody got killed.

@mbz32190: That's exactly what I was thinking. He clocked out, so he's on his own time. He said he was making a citizen's arrest, which makes sense on his own time.

I have a feeling the store is going to end up in trouble anyways for firing someone who on their own time was trying to stop a shop lifter.

On a side note. Once I had a lady walk in. Rip a $300 steering wheel out of the display lock and walk out like nothing had happened.

"There's nothing in this store more valuable than your life. If they ask you to bring the register out to their car, you do it. What are they getting? $1,000 at most. Way less than what your worth to me."

@humphrmi: 1 bag of Whole Foods groceries is more like $75. With food prices going the way they are, it's be great to see someone robbing a Whole Foods.

I wonder if he could really be fired though, and he may have a case against Whole Foods itself. Usually when you aren't on the clock (eg. punched out for breaks), you can do whatever you want as you aren't on company time.

If it gets that far, best to just let him go.

For the employees, though, it really shouldn't be such a problem. Yeah, we don't like seeing people steal. But we're not trained to be cops. Police go through lots of training to know what to do if the perpetrator pulls a knife, or gun, or does something else foolish. It's not worth fifty bucks worth of groceries to get shot or stabbed.