var json_comments = new Array("
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ngoandy
January 12, 2009 1:40 PM
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The entire list of reliable cars is Asian. I didn't expect that.

I figured at least one American company would be on there and a couple European companies.

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19 replies
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scootinger
January 12, 2009 11:27 PM
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People think Chevy, GMC, Ford, and Cadillac are among the most reliable? Really? Who did they survey, a bunch of xenophobic Southern rednecks? I can understand why people would have the impression that European cars are reliable, but I thought that it was common knowledge that most American cars are pieces of shit. (Except for my Pontiac Vibe...but that's just a Toyota in disguise.)

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 3:07 PM
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@ngoandy: You should peruse some of that \"absurd abundance\" of CU data. They poll their members on their cars, and this is what the data is based on. I got one of those surveys once. They're pretty comprehensive. In other words, the numbers haven't been pulled out of someone's arse, but are representative of lots of real people driving real cars.

And yes, Honda, Toyota, and their associated brands float to the top of the reliability list. If you look at the matrix at the link, you'll see that the cars at the top of the list are also the most consistently reliable across product lines. Those in the middle and bottom vary VERY widely in this regard. Especially Ford, which has at least one model that tested VERY well (Fusion) and some that tested VERY poorly and drag Ford down to the bottom third of the list.

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Jim Topoleski
January 12, 2009 1:44 PM
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@ngoandy: the whole list is VERY suspect to me. There is no way half those asian cars are more reliable than some of the American brands. My wifes 2 year old Honda FIT has been recalled twice already while I have NEVER had to bring any of my GM vehicles in for a recall in 12 years.

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banmojo
January 16, 2009 5:08 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: your assumption based on your personal history is 'level 4' evidence, and this list was based on 'level 2/3' evidence, which is why when we go to doctors it's really better to go to younger, more recently trained MDs, because they base their practice on Level 1/2 evidence first, while older MDs base much of their practice on personal observation, which is level 4, and is the weakest scientific evidence out there.

Think about it, and enjoy your luck, bestowed by the demigod of GM.

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consumerfan
January 13, 2009 8:16 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Really, due to what? A faulty child sensor?

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Anonymous
January 13, 2009 6:32 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Really? I've had the exact opposite experience. My Scion tC has been extremely reliable, whereas my GM (Chevy and Buick) and Dodge cars have all died prematurely (in my opinion).

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SpenceMan01
January 13, 2009 12:40 AM
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@Jim Topoleski: My parents had a 2003 Impala where the speedometer would bury itself while they were just driving. By bury itself I mean it would flip all the way over, past the maximum speed and stay there. They could do a process of stopping and going to bring it back down to 0 and it would be fine for a while, but eventually it would do it again. We did some searching and it turns out it is a known problem involving plastic gears on the stepper motors that drive the gauges. They were recalling the GM trucks, but the car owners were SOL. They dealt with the problem for 9 month until it was off-lease and bought a Nissan Altima, vowing never to buy GM again.

*THAT'S* probably why you haven't seen a recall for your GM vehicle. GM doesn't give a %$@#.

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CaliforniaCajun
January 13, 2009 12:01 AM
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@Jim Topoleski: Recall ≠ reliable.

In fact, the Ford Explorer is pretty reliable...as long as the cruise control unit doesn't cause the truck to burst into flames.

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Nik in Denver, formerly in NOLA
January 12, 2009 10:13 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: The US market Fit has only had one recall, and it was for an instruction manual typo. Nice try.

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berribrand
January 12, 2009 7:56 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Asian auto-makers generally have better QA/QC checks and more stringent QA/QC standards than German or American manufacturers. They tolerate less errors, which means that something can get by (as could be the case of your wife's Fit), but it should result in less errors at the consumer end from a macroscopic standpoint, as shown in this list. My Honda with 80k drives like new with only standard maintenance checks; nothing has ever broken.

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TechnoDestructo
January 12, 2009 6:22 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:

Recalls are not usually reliability issues, and different companies have different thresholds of seriousness for an issue before they'll do a recall.

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Parapraxis
January 12, 2009 4:27 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:

I don't know, when a company takes a full page ad apologizing for poor designs, I think you should listen:

[consumerist.com]

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Trick
January 12, 2009 3:33 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:

Well, it sure couldn't be because American companies fight tooth and nail to not issue recalls while non-American auto companies attempt to fix the problem when there is one.

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failurate
January 12, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Trick: I think he's talking about you 2000-2003 Ford Focus ignition tumbler.

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:12 PM
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@failurate: Had one of those too. It's frustrating when your perfectly good automobile needs to be TOWED in order to fix something that should NEVER fail, EVER.

It's even more frustrating that the mechanic couldn't replace it without taking the whole steering column apart. Turns out the original lock cylinder was cast from some inferior garbage metal, the kind they make cheap dollar-store knockoff Matchbox cars out of. The one he replaced it with was much more robust.

Moral - American compact cars suck because they make them in MEXICO. Why Mexico? Because the Detroit Three don't actually want to make or sell compact cars at all, but if they're forced to by CAFE, they'll have them slapped together by the lowest non-UAW bidder from the cheapest materials possible. They may as well have been made in China and sold at Wal-Mart.

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InThrees
January 12, 2009 3:17 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: You don't think that's because GM decided to just not do a recall on an issue that might have warranted it? Are you saying none of your GM vehicles have needed repairs?

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chris_d
January 12, 2009 2:57 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:
I really don't believe the Kia and Hyundai ones; not with what I've heard about those brands.

The Honda rating is correct, if not high enough. People I know who own Hondas just never have issues with them. A coworker drives a Honda that has 200,000 miles on it. He bought it used and all he's ever had done to it is lubes.

I think your GM statement is misleading. Who cares about recalls -- they're covered. I've had to do plenty of repairs on my GM -- computer, fuel injectors, cylinder head. My father's GM truck had to have to transmission repairs -- fortunately it was under warranty at the time. It had a fuel pressure regulator go after warranty, and now it's developing a couple of other relatively minor problems.

My friend's 2006 Monte has issues with the intermediate steering shaft, just out of warranty (due to mileage). It also had the water pump quit -- out of warranty.

I think when the big dogs from GM, Ford, and Chrysler tell you their quality issues are solved they're lying.

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SantosJudo
January 13, 2009 5:46 PM
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@chris_d: But whoa ho ho! my experience with Hondas is terrible. I hated that car so much I named it \"Spite\" and I was thrilled when it was totaled. I had a Toyota and I liked it so much I traded it in after a year for a Hyundai and despite the fact that trading that car in so early was stupid, I don't regret the decision. So, my perception is totally different from yours. Also I'd totally have a KIA before a Mitsubishi, Mitsubishis should come in a dispenser they're so crappy.. so nyah.

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SunnyLea
January 12, 2009 7:19 PM
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@chris_d:

\"I really don't believe the Kia and Hyundai ones; not with what I've heard about those brands.\"

Yes, and the interesting thing is, that's exactly what this study is about: perception vs. reality.

Your perception is that Kia and Hyundai are not reliable. The reality is that they are. See!

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Jubilance22
January 12, 2009 3:13 PM
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@chris_d: I have a 2006 Hyundai Sonata and I have had ZERO issues with this car. Its hands down THE BEST car I've ever owned, and I've had a Nissan, a Saturn and a Ford.


Hyundai has a bad rep from its early years, but their reliability has increased by leaps and bounds. Everyone I know with a Hyundai (and I personally know about 10 people with Hyundais) loves the fact that they have no issues with their vehicles.

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viatorci
January 12, 2009 9:27 PM
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@Jubilance22: Agreed. I have a 2007 Hyundai Sonata and it just feels solid. No problems, great mileage, and a low price. People snigger when I say Hyundai but that image is beginning to change.

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floraposte
January 12, 2009 2:38 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: You're suggesting, though, that your personal experience must necessarily be representative, and the fact that it isn't falsifies the list. That's not how statistics work, and it's our tendency toward experiential bias that they can be useful in combatting.

Every brand will have had individual cars that died like dogs and lasted forever, and there's probably quite a bit of variation in overall performance even between models and years of each of these brands as well. As CR itself will certainly emphasize, since they spend a lot of time reviewing individual models and years. But it's interesting to see that overall there seem to be brand trends, and in light of the bailout it's interesting to see what they are.

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snowburnt
January 12, 2009 2:27 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: At least recalls are free. If you got yours two years ago, then it was the first ever Fit (we got one too)I'd expect some growing pains while they figure out where everything goes with real life use. Aside from those recalls we haven't had a single problem with the car and it's worked great.

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smythe
January 12, 2009 2:23 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: If you never brought your GM in for a recall in 12 years then you are either not getting the notices or ignoring them... I don't think there is a single vehicle made by GM that doesn't have at least 1 recall.

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Jim Topoleski
January 12, 2009 2:37 PM
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@smythe: Bull. My cobalt sedan never had a recall on it, nor has my current Aura. And while the Aura is a second year model the Cobalt I had was issue year which is usually full of recalls.

The problem here is you have CR reporting reliability without using anything but antidotal data. They are not using industry numbers, they are using numbers reported by subscribers, So if you have a ton of people driving hondas and toyotas because CR suggested them, while you only have a few driving Fords and GMs then your data isnt going to be right.

Couple with what CR uses as their criteria of a reliability issue (a carpet coming up rates the same as a engine issue) and you have bunk reporting.

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stre
January 12, 2009 10:33 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Jim? Jiiiiiim? Jiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmm? Are you there Jim? Did you leave us because you found out you were wrong or did your facebook account time out?

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Trai_Dep
January 12, 2009 6:26 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Not quite so fast. \"Anecdotal\" refers to individual experiences. A million and one-half reports moves it from the anecdotal to the \"fact\" category.
Actually, your cite of your individual, isolated GM car's experience is the archetype of the kind of critique you're making. Turning things around, why is your personal experience so special that it outweighs those of the 1,399,999 other car owners?

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esp13
January 12, 2009 9:41 PM
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@Trai_Dep: Wait a minute, I thought I know my math 1.5 mil - 1 = 1,399,999?

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stre
January 12, 2009 10:32 PM
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@esp13: the article says the number is actually 1.4 million

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GearheadGeek
January 12, 2009 8:09 PM
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@Trai_Dep: Well, it moves it from anecdotal to statistically significant. Fact is a bit more absolute than \"statistical probability.\"

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Trai_Dep
January 12, 2009 8:46 PM
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@GearheadGeek: True. But within Gaussian parameters, it's \"fact\". :)

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perruptor
January 12, 2009 5:39 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Anecdotal data is exactly what you're supplying us: \"My wife's Fit vs. my Cobalt.\" CU's reader survey produces massive amounts of data, and the analyses are proportional. They do say that Fords are more reliable than any of the European cars, based on reader experience. GM cars don't do as well. Again, you're wrong in thinking that CU weights all problems equally - they don't.

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)
January 12, 2009 5:08 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: But ... you're complaining their data is wrong with anecdotal data!

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Mrs. Stephen Fry
January 12, 2009 4:40 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: You are talking out of your arse. Just because you think you haven't had a recall doesn't mean there hasn't been one. You can go on and on about your super-great Cobalt (snort), but one car does not equal a reliable brand.

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KyleOrton
January 12, 2009 4:33 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:

The problem here is you have CR reporting reliability without using anything but antidotal data.

CU isn't perfect, but you do realize that you're arguing against a sample size of anecdotal evidence with your personal anecdotal evidence. I'd usually go with the larger sample size.

BTW, to add to our own sample, of all of my family's cars the two best have been a Lexus RX350 and a Subaru Legacy and the two worst were a 99 Chevy Malibu and a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant. I steer clear of those brands now.

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blainer
January 12, 2009 2:44 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: The proper way to use antidotal in the sentence: \"Trading in your Ford for a Subaru would be antidotal to trips to the dealer for repairs.\"

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rob_p
January 12, 2009 3:26 PM
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@blainer: In the great words of Inigo Montoya, \"I do not think that word means what you think it means.\" I believe the word you both are thinking of is anecdotal.

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stre
January 12, 2009 10:28 PM
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@rob_p: no, i think blainer got it right. he used \"antidotal\" properly to show Jim Topoleski the error of his ways.

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esp13
January 12, 2009 9:36 PM
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@rob_p: Topoleski had it wrong, he was looking for \"anecdotal\". bainer used it \"antidotal\" in the correct form.

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GearheadGeek
January 12, 2009 8:07 PM
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@rob_p: You completely missed blainer's joke.

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Jim Topoleski
January 12, 2009 2:31 PM
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@LJKelley: also add that CR rates a engine failure and a broken cupholder as the SAME thing. I can deal with a broken cupholder but if my Honda has a broken engine then well thats a issue.

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perruptor
January 12, 2009 5:34 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: No, they do not rate broken cupholders and engine failures as the same. You're thinking of JD Power & Associates, who do exactly that. CU weights problems for severity.

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Anonymous
January 12, 2009 5:09 PM
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@Jim Topoleski:

Actually, no they don't. You could read their Reliability Survey FAQ, where they go into detail about how they record and evaluate failures in 17 different categories such as \"engine major\" \"transmission\", etc. :
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/auto-test/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq-8-06/overview/0608_consumer-reports-carreliability-faq_ov.htm


\"
3.3. Are all problems considered equally serious?
Problems with the engine-major, cooling system, transmission-major, and driveline are more likely to take a car out of service and to be more expensive to repair than the other problem areas. Consequently, we weigh these areas more heavily in our calculations of Used Car Verdicts and Predicted Reliability.\"

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TVarmy
January 12, 2009 1:58 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: True, but what about TCO? Major repairs? That's what reliability is to me. A recall, in my opinion, is a good thing, because it means I get a dealer repair for free.

Besides, my mom's Camery lasted her 12 years, and her Prius has had no problems. Meanwhile, my PT Cruiser is slowly killing itself in every way possible.

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JustThatGuy3
January 12, 2009 1:43 PM
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Interesting - so the perception people have that toyota and honda have the best reliability is correct - the top 5 is the \"actual\" table are all toyota or honda brands (scion and lexus=toyota, acura=honda).

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5 replies
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runchadrun
January 12, 2009 3:56 PM
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@JustThatGuy3: The Scion isn't just a Toyota brand, it IS a Toyota. We have a TC which we bought at the local Toyota dealer, which also has a small Scion area of their lot, we get service at the Toyota dealer, and the DMV has it listed as a Toyota on the registration. The TC uses a Camry engine and is built on the chassis of a European Toyota model.

Try taking an Acura to a Honda dealer or a Lexus to a Toyota dealer and see what kind of service you get.

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:17 PM
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@runchadrun: They did that to me too. Seems when I bought my Scion xA, the DMV had no idea whether Scion was a make or a model, but they did know Toyota.

I love my xA very much. It's a rock solid reliable car, and it's a lot of fun to drive.

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littlemoose
January 12, 2009 6:41 PM
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@runchadrun: I have a tC too, and I love it. It's been super-dependable.

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:19 PM
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@littlemoose: Well, being the third-best Scion for reliability is hardly a knock on the tC. According to the graph, they're all about as rock-solid as they come.

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Erwos
January 12, 2009 1:49 PM
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@JustThatGuy3: I was gonna say much the same thing - looks like people's perceptions that Honda and Toyota lead the pack aren't exactly wrong.

I am biased, of course - I love my Civic, and secretly desire an S2000.

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dialing_wand
January 12, 2009 2:53 PM
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@Erwos: No need to keep it a secret. It's a great track-day car.

Me wants one too.

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KyleOrton
January 12, 2009 5:26 PM
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@dialing_wand: If I had one, I'd never leave the driver's seat! Seriously, I doubt I could get out.

Maybe I can straddle the car....

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RogueSophist
January 12, 2009 3:32 PM
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@dialing_wand: Me too. Too bad 2009 will be the last S2000 model year, with no replacement in sight.

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whitecat
January 12, 2009 1:46 PM
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I'm surprized that Subaru is only in 7th place. My ten-year-old Impreza is the most reliable car I've ever owned.

I think it should be noted that the data at your links is available only to CR subscribers, though.

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5 replies
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BadAxe
January 16, 2009 4:48 PM
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@whitecat: I miss my old Subie whenever the show falls. (Like the last few weeks.) Best snow car ever.

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littlemisslondon
January 12, 2009 7:46 PM
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@whitecat: I have only owned Subies ('98 Impreza Sport, '00 Legacy) and they have been uniformly amazing cars. I don't think I'll ever buy anything else.

Plus, they hold their value like almost no other car on the market.

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GreatWhiteNorth
January 12, 2009 3:55 PM
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@whitecat: I was surprised too... My wife drives a 2000 Forester and it has actually been a good car. Very few major problems, a short list of minor ones; check engine light for gas cap, auto transmission fluid level problems for a while (suspect oil change monkey caused it), fit and finish of the plastic dash cubby lids is poor, and occasionally the check engine light comes on but scans show no problems.
Fuel economy not too bad either around 12 l/100km or 32 mpg...
I am not sure I would buy another and I definitely won't let my wife have the impreza sport she wants... but it works. In the snow with good real snow tires it is fantastic.

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ElizabethD
January 12, 2009 2:28 PM
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@whitecat:
We used to be Subaru diehards, but then we got two lemons in a row. Things just went wrong; they never felt well balanced and drove \"rough\"; etc etc. Now we're Hyundai diehards. :)

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dialing_wand
January 12, 2009 2:55 PM
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@ElizabethD: With Subaru, as with any other car, it's best to buy pre-owned. Let someone else taste the rind. It's better for your pocketbook as well.

We would never eat the 30% (or so) depreciation in the first two years ever again.

That being said, our Impreza (now 5) is incredibly reliable. Cheap on the inside-we spent it all on the drivetrain-reliable.

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whitecat
January 12, 2009 3:25 PM
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@dialing_wand: This is actually the first new car I've ever owned, and at ten years, its value is holding pretty well. I've certainly gotten my money's worth out of it and I expect it to last another ten years.

Then I'm going to bronze it.

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whitecat
January 12, 2009 3:29 PM
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@whitecat: I should add that it's an Impreza L wagon and therefore it was built in Japan - I believe other models from that year and since were built in the U.S.

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MikeHerbst
January 12, 2009 5:48 PM
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@whitecat:

Some of the Legacy variants (Legacy, Outback, and Baja) are built at the Indiana plant. Everything based on the Impreza (Impreza, Forester, and WRX/STi variants) is built at the Gunma, Japan plant.

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Rectilinear Propagation
January 12, 2009 1:47 PM
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I thought people thought Ford cars weren't reliable: Fixed Or Repaired Daily.

Oh well. I don't know cars...

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10 replies
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Anonymous
January 17, 2009 12:48 AM
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@Rectilinear Propagation: i would like to respond about the asian cars as so reliable i would like to say that i have owned toyota and nissan these autos where the worst brands i ever owned nothing but trouble im not going in to detail there is to much to list.but iwould just like to say that i have gone back to ford and chrysler jeep and i would have to say these autos are more reliable and trouble free and my family is very happy with these products.also i do have friends that also drive chrysler products with 300,000 plus miles and still driving. im just having ahard time understanding why people think that asian cars are so great im just starting to think that people are brain washed in to thinking that asian autos are so much better.i would just have to say its american autos my for family and friends use.it also helps keep american jobs home and most of all it keeps money home insted of going back to japan.

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oregongal
January 12, 2009 6:49 PM
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@Rectilinear Propagation:
Nah its a:
F.riggin
O.ld
R.ebuilt
D.odge

Of course one of the best cars I ever had was a '62 Ford Wagon, ran on fumes and maypops lol. Took that sucker cross country and back and as long as I kept an eye on the mileage I never ran out of gas. Had to replace the generator in OK City but no probs other than that. Driving a 2000 Dodge Stratus now that will paid off next month :D that is every bit as good as that old Ford. LOL maybe better cuz the gas gauge works :D

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Eyebrows McGee (now with more baby!)
January 12, 2009 5:11 PM
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@changed my name: Yep, that's the one I'm familiar with.

OTOH, my husband and I both drive Focuses (Foci?) and have found them very reliable and Ford only moderately pain-in-the-assy to deal with the one time we had a problem with one. (And again, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data. But I like my Focus.)

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:25 PM
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@Eyebrows McGee: I hear the later ones were pretty good. It's the early ones, like the one I got my son to drive to school in, that had all the silly little problems like the ignition lock cylinder failure that kept the tow truck operators and mechanics in business. Of course, you could pre-emptively fix all of those, and have a pretty decent car. I would ask for an allowance of $1500 from the used-car dealer for this.

Of course, a 2000 Focus is now worth something like three grand, so it's up to you whether you want to spend that kind of dough to bring your Focus back to spec.

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TVarmy
January 12, 2009 1:59 PM
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@Rectilinear Propagation: That's actually how my mom talked me out of looking into a Volvo that was being sold used in town...

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 3:09 PM
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@PorkchopSandwiches!_GitEmSteveDave: That's FIAT. The problem here is that Tony went back to Italy years ago, so you have to fix your FIAT again yourself.

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2Wheelsor4: The Moto-Stig
January 12, 2009 2:06 PM
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@PorkchopSandwiches!_GitEmSteveDave: Nah, that's actually FIAT.

GMC does stand for Garage Mechanic's Companion.

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PorkchopSandwiches!_GitEmSteveDave
January 12, 2009 3:34 PM
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@2wheelsor4: More Boxer Twin Deliciousness!: @Drew5764: @Drew5764: King of the Hill joke.

\"Dale: You know what the problem is? It's a Ford. You know what Ford stands for? Fix It Again Tony.
Hank: Dale, that's a Fiat. \"

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dvdchris
January 12, 2009 2:18 PM
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@2wheelsor4: More Boxer Twin Deliciousness!: I think these guys were enacting a King Of The Hill scene...
Anyway, seriously? Ford in the top 5 perceived reliable brands? How did that happen?

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JollyJumjuck
January 12, 2009 1:48 PM
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I wonder if all the bailout money will entice the American manufacturers to make their cars more reliable?


Nah. They'll just take the money and run.

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2 replies
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Dansc29625
January 13, 2009 12:03 AM
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@JollyJumjuck: Nope. The townies that say \"I only buy America, dangit\" are few and far between these days, so that is why Detroit needs a bailout.

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Nytmare
January 12, 2009 1:52 PM
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Toyota and Honda take the top 5 slots while Dodge + Chrysler are down at the bottom.

Too bad they only list high volume manufacturers, but they probably don't want to rate low volume ones due to insufficient data.

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weakdome
January 12, 2009 6:48 PM
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@nytmare: I also love how the \"most reliable\" brand is the youngest one on the market. How does that prove overall reliability at all?

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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed
January 12, 2009 1:53 PM
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Best perceived brands or best perceived RELIABILITY?


List 1 is questionable. It looks more like a list of \"best reputation,\" which is far more than just reliability. Some of the crappiest appliances in my home have never broken.

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3 replies
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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed
January 12, 2009 2:02 PM
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@Ash78: I made a supposition out of my lack of reading comprehension!


List 1 includes many factors.


So the disparity between 1 and 2 just means that most buyers value more than just reliability. Which warms the cockles of my heart.

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wee0x1B
January 12, 2009 6:32 PM
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@Ash78: No, the disparity means that most people's notion of their car's reliability is wrong. I'm guessing their mistaken opinions are influenced by other factors, how much they like their car, etc.

I've owned a Toyota for the last 15 years (two different vehicles). In all that time, I've been to the shop only for routine maintenance. My dad, mother, uncle and brother have all owned Fords in that time. I can't count the number of times I've given them rides to pick up/drop off their vehicles. It's in the dozens.

That's anecdotal, sure, but so is the makeup of the first list. If asked, my family would say their Fords are reliable, because they like their cars (and they all have a misguided notion that they are buying an American vehicle). Reality would disagree, and my memories of how many times I've heard they had to take their cars in disagrees as well.

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TVarmy
January 12, 2009 2:00 PM
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@Ash78: Likely as you don't use them as much as the good ones. Most people need to drive to work every day, and drive to get groceries. Reliability is major, and pretty much key to a car's utility.

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rpm773
January 12, 2009 1:55 PM
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I wouldn't buy another European car again unless it had a factory or CPO warranty on it. I got my money's worth on my BMW's CPO.

It was still a pain in the ass when the fan clutch seized on Xmas Eve 250 miles from home, though. And when the drive shaft failed on Thanksgiving a few years later...350 miles from home. And when the radiator split..luckily just before taking a long trip.

As soon as the CPO was up, I sold it and bought a Toyota.

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rolla
January 12, 2009 3:09 PM
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@rpm773: what did you expect from a BMW?? they ALWAYS have problems...BMW is one of the most overrated vehicles on the market.

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seandavid010
January 12, 2009 7:03 PM
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@rolla: Overrated? I dunno... my friend's M3 is an amazing machine - quite possibly the best car in the world. But there's a reason I drive a Honda Accord. Ultimate Driving Machine? Quite. Reliable? Not so much.

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rpm773
January 12, 2009 3:51 PM
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@rolla: I expected a car that was helluva fun to drive, and I got one. I just got some \"extras\" with it. :)

I miss it, but I'm a wiser man because of it, too.

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Anonymous
January 12, 2009 2:02 PM
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Unfortunately, many of CR ratings and reviews are about as reliable as a Kia. They often do NOT translate into real world experience. They use very skewered results, and their testing methods also are often do NOT produce accurate real life results

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Illiterati
January 14, 2009 11:05 PM
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@UthmanNuddletits: Your perception of Kia does not match my experience of Kia. Best little car I've ever had, and consistently 30+ mpg.

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SugitaAlcimede
January 14, 2009 3:27 PM
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@UthmanNuddletits: +1. i know your new corporate overlords are CONSUMER REPORTS, but, their methodology is weak at best and abysmal at worst. The shopping bags come up with beter testing protocols.

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Fist-o™
January 14, 2009 5:26 PM
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@SugitaAlcimede: Suggest a superior alternative that exists.

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aftercancer
January 12, 2009 2:07 PM
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I've been driving Hyundai's for years and had virtually no problems. Other than people making fun of me for driving a Hyundai.

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8 replies
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viatorci
January 12, 2009 9:25 PM
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@aftercancer: Agreed. I love my hyundai (a 2007 Sonata) to pieces. I think the brand recognition is finally beginning to change though. Not to mention, you cannot get a better value on any other car or car company.

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battra92
January 12, 2009 6:17 PM
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@aftercancer: I love my Hyundai. CR rated the Elantra the Best Buy in 08 (IIRC) and quite frankly I see myself owning this car for years to come.

Oh and they aren't stolen as much as Hondas or Toyotas so my insurance is less. ;)

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 6:58 PM
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@battra92: Exactly. :D
My mom wouldn't let me buy a Kia when I was in high school because they were \"death traps\". If she had known I technically bought one in my Elantra, I dunno what she would've said.

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battra92
January 12, 2009 8:57 PM
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@Oranges w/ Cheese: Oh, and I forgot to mention that when people say Kia they tend to think of the Rio which are really tiny and not all that appealing.

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battra92
January 12, 2009 8:56 PM
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@Oranges w/ Cheese: My grandmother is/was a die-hard GM person. She always had GM's (save for her 51 Ford) and was a little nervous when I told her I was buying the Elantra.

She drove it once and now she wants one just like it.

Kias I still wonder about. My uncle has the minivan and he's had a few weird issues with it but my uncle is down right rotten to all cars.

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ElizabethD
January 12, 2009 2:27 PM
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@aftercancer:
We love our Hyundais! You're right -- in the beginning they were a joke. No more.

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Changed my name to \"I like potatoes\"
January 12, 2009 2:22 PM
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@aftercancer:
Hyundai's reputation has significantly increased within the last ten years. I used to laugh at them. Now I laugh at Kia's. I guess I have to stop that now too.

I'll just laugh at the overpriced Mercedes and BMW's instead.

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NotYou007
January 12, 2009 10:59 PM
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@changed my name:


I have a 2007 Kia Rio and if you want to laugh at it go ahead. It has the same engine has a brand new Hyundai Accent and is built on the same unibody. A Kia Rio is basicly an Accent and as was already mentioned they are both the same company these days. The Kia Rio is a great little car that has great side and front impact ratings and the car has 10 different air bags in in.


Does your car have 10 different air bags in it and it only cost you 12K? I doubt it.


I also get 38 MPG when I'm doing 55 MPH and when I'm driving 80 MPH I get 30 MPG. Do you get that kind of gas mileage in your car?


So go ahead and laugh and point at my Kia Rio. I have placed over 17,000 miles on it in less than 6 months without one issue at all. So again, point in laugh all you desire.

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rpm773
January 12, 2009 4:41 PM
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@changed my name: Kia is owned by Hyundai. Hyundai bought Kia around the same time they began to try to better their quality image. I've always suspected that was done on purpose (in part) - you always want someone lower than you on the ladder.

That all said, my friends and I used to make fun of Hyundai. But we also said that it was like Honda in the mid-70s...and that one day Hyundai would make good cars. And we were right.

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vastrightwing
January 12, 2009 2:12 PM
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You must give Ford & GM's PR department credit for at least fooling people into thinking their cars are more reliable than they really are. If you think American cars are reliable because yours has worked for years without needing repairs, I like to remember that even a broken watch is correct twice a day. Which is my warped way of saying sometimes you beat the odds.

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chris_d
January 12, 2009 2:59 PM
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@vastrightwing:
Yes, and they've done it repeatedly over the last 30 years. I saw quotes from a GM exec in the 70s saying their quality problems were fixed and they were as good as the Japanese car makers. They weren't and they aren't today either.

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cabjf
January 12, 2009 2:50 PM
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@vastrightwing: Actually, I'm betting these results are less accurate than you might think. Just trying to figure out who is selling the most reliable new cars on the market is near impossible because it's a moving target. Looking at Consumer Reports data for most Subarus, it appears that they fall apart after a 4-5 years compared to other manufacturers. Or is that data really saying that in the past 4-5 years they really stepped it up in the reliability department and as time goes on the history will reflect it better? So while Ford may not be on that most reliable list (which they probably won't until their truck based vehicles are more reliable, according to CR), who's to say their cars aren't just as reliable as Toyota's now? That's a statement CR also made recently.

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:29 PM
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@cabjf: If you are a subscriber, and get to look at CR's nifty little graph, the best Fords are indeed as good as the best Toyotas. Ford just isn't as consistent across product lines as Toyota is. In other words, they have a lot of lemons with some decent cars mixed in.

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albokay
January 12, 2009 2:37 PM
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@vastrightwing: Looks like years of spending money trying to fool people are catching up with them. Shame they didnt save some of that money and use it to try to make a good car rather than paying someone to tell them over sized buttons on a dash looks good.

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LJKelley
January 12, 2009 2:18 PM
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The problem is that these figures are based on those who Subscribe (and thus pay) to CR and then bother to report back. So they are not 100% accurate. Add to it that people who buy expensive luxury cars like BMW and Mercedes tend to be more nitpicky over small items than perhaps others drivers. I've been around enough of them to know they are more critical if things don't go 100% as they want.

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floraposte
January 12, 2009 2:33 PM
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@LJKelley: As the explanation makes clear, they're not drawn from CR subscribers; they're drawn from a random selection of car owners polled via telephone.

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LJKelley
January 12, 2009 3:19 PM
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@floraposte: Can you not read? If you click both links, you are correct obviously in that the Brand Perception poll based on 1400 adults. However if you read that Reliability Rating is based on SUBSCRIBERS and thus I agree when Mercedes-Benz publicly stated that the ratings are flawed. In fact oddly enough, one year after their complaints MB is now up and CR now 'recommends them' as opposed to not before.


Its very hard to measure these things as I know I baby my car and its in probably more than it should and for anything minor I feel need done. So surveys (I've seen them) that ask how many times your car was serviced are quite wrong. It doesn't hurt the I get a free loaner car, so its not an inconvience to me.


Yes MB did have issues (with the radiator, and heat kills) on the early 2000s C Classes, but I know that E has always had very good reliability and MB had internal quality results from warranty claims etc that did not match up to what CR was saying. They complain and look, CR magically changes their numbers this year.


Same goes with Ford which I don't follow, but I know friend who prefers domestics does and he has commented the Ford has been catching up or exceeding import quality lately and yet CR has been very slow to increase their scores or recommend models though its obvious that criticsm has changed that.

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floraposte
January 12, 2009 3:31 PM
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@LJKelley: Thanks for your gracious clarifying explanation.

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Parapraxis
January 12, 2009 6:52 PM
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@floraposte:

Hey, are you trying to be sarcastic here?!

The wo/man just spent the last 20 minutes writing not ONE, but TWO replies to your post, wasting valuable moments of his life, and you haven't even answered his ad hominem question!

floraposte, I expected much more out of you... really. If you took as much time as LJKelly to systematically attack and digress into anecdotal posturing, I wouldn't have to be writing this.

For shame.

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LJKelley
January 12, 2009 3:27 PM
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@LJKelley: Let me add. I have 2005 C240, my friend has a 2004 CLK500. No issues whatsoever. My sister in law as a Kia and my neighbor has a Kia. While nothing that has stopped their 'reliability' I suppose they have had several warranty issue. My sister in law even instigated a recall being the first (of then several) to report an issue which took several visits for them to even repair. I'm not saying this is any more fair or accurate than what CR is doing, but it does seem odd that 100% of the MB I know about have had no issues while 100% of the Kia's I know about have had issues. And while i'm not a rude or bitchy MB owner, my friend is. He got really mad they used the wrong cleaner in his car...

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smythe
January 12, 2009 2:21 PM
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Isn't this the exact opposite of what the big 3 are crying?


I know Ford is claiming they have equal or better quality than the Japanese but their perceived quality is not as good.


Guess they're wrong.

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8 replies
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chauncy that billups
January 12, 2009 3:46 PM
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@smythe: I will NEVER own another ford again. Ford station wagon - constant break downs. Ford Minivan - constant breakdowns. ford taurus - constant radiator blowing, transmission failure, etc. I bought a mazda 626 to replace the taurus, thinking that I finally got away. BUT NO! the 626's CD4E engine is made by Ford and apparently always fails after 100k miles!! So, lifetime ban on ford.

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Jim Topoleski
January 12, 2009 2:38 PM
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@smythe: No they are right. They are using REAL industry data. CR is using antidotal evidence of subscribers.

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floraposte
January 12, 2009 4:55 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Self-reported data isn't invalid, though; it just needs the self-reportage factor to be considered when evaluating it. As noted, there's a bias tendency toward extremes, and there's a possibility that CR readers don't sample the same as a random population. But given the numbers involved in the survey, it's pretty near impossible that they didn't have a statistically significant sampling of owners of the major brands, so the ownership patterns aren't actually likely to skew the results.

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Tmoney02
January 12, 2009 3:37 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Hmmm...To trust the car manufactures numbers which they can tweak to their benefit or an independent third party with its own rigorous data completion and analysis...thats tough...

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dialing_wand
January 12, 2009 3:02 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: SHENANIGANS: antidotal is not making you sound smart. What you're looking for is anecdotal:

an·ec·dot·al (nk-dtl)
adj.
1. also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: \"There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems\" C. Claiborne Ray.
(From [www.thefreedictionary.com])

As for antidotal: [letmegooglethatforyou.com]

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cabjf
January 12, 2009 2:56 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Forgot to mention this in my other post, but a large collection of anecdotal (I think that's the word you meant to use) is actual good data. Otherwise, whether it's \"industry\" data or not wouldn't matter as every data point is just another anecdotal piece of evidence.

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cabjf
January 12, 2009 2:52 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Not to mention CR was one of the one's making that claim about Ford. They said that, excluding their truck based vehicles, Ford was as reliable as Toyota and Honda.

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azntg
January 12, 2009 2:46 PM
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@Jim Topoleski: Jim, I think it's time for disclosures.

What's your occupation?

Do you have any vested interest between specific vehicle manufacturer? Are you compensated on the behalf of a specific vehicle manufacturer?

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Trai_Dep
January 12, 2009 6:43 PM
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@azntg: Another interesting data-point for Mr Topoleski is whether he thinks that UAW workers take home >$70/hour and it's the damned greedy workers' fault that the Big Three are in the shape they're in... I kind of get the feeling his answer to that will be \"yes\".

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ElizabethD
January 12, 2009 2:26 PM
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Hyundai seems to be growing on a combination of word of mouth and irresistible pricing and warranty. I see more and more of them on the road and in parking lots.

We both have Santa Fes (my husband is on his second one) and love them.

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1 replies
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viatorci
January 12, 2009 9:24 PM
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A@ElizabethD: Agreed. I love my Hyundai and tell everyone I know about it.

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Pepsistopheles
January 12, 2009 2:28 PM
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No Mitsubishi love? Or BMW on the 'real' list, for that matter?

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Saboth
January 12, 2009 2:29 PM
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Heh, I knew it. All evidence points to Domestic cars being crap, and they are. People buy them because they are cheap, then when they break down in 2 years, they sell them and take a huge loss because it depreciated 50%. I've been saying the same thing for years, and all people can say is Domestics are \"better than they were\". So what? If I can pay 10% more for something that will be worth 80% more down the road, and keep me from having to run to the dealership for repairs...I will.

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starrion
January 12, 2009 6:39 PM
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@Saboth:


Not so much. My wife and I both have domestics.


They are nine and ten years old. One has 122K on it, the other 89K. Neither one has required much more than wear and tear maintenance.

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:35 PM
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@starrion: Our '99 Accord has 162,000 miles, runs nearly like new, and has ZERO rust. Not just runs, but runs well. And this is in Upstate New York, where we've already gotten something like eight feet of snow and will get another eight feet before March, the high Thursday morning will probably not go above zero, and the roads are salted mercilessly. That's a torture test if I have ever heard of one.

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shepd
January 12, 2009 2:31 PM
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Kia sucks. I mean, seriously, who designs a car with self-destructing wipers?

My Corolla in the winter: Wipers get stuck. Summer WWF in winter got frozen. I fixed the former with the car's heating because I'm too lazy to pull them and I know this car is built like a tank. I fixed the latter by getting out and massaging the lines enough to get the fluid going again and, of course, putting the right winter stuff in.

The Kia? Every single time the wipers get stuck it bends the connecting rods and requires repair. And today the WWF pump blew out AGAIN. And this car hasn't ever seen any fluid other than the winter stuff.

Look, if you want a car to be reliable, consider external factors. Check if the car can self-destruct. If the car can destroy itself just because someone forgets the wipers are stuck to the windshield, your car has a major design issue. I wouldn't be surprised if this extends to other things. I bet the engine explodes if the tailpipe is blocked. :-)

(And there's so many other issues I could list about the Kia it's not even funny. That 5 year warranty got just about every electrical component in the car replaced, and now it's over I'm not looking forward to how many other things will go wrong. *sigh*.)

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battra92
January 12, 2009 8:59 PM
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@shepd: Man, I hate it when the WWF starts going. First they piledrive you on the cement and then bring out the tables, ladders and chairs and then they.

Oh wait, I'm thinking of something else. ;)

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drjayphd
January 12, 2009 10:23 PM
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@battra92: Yeah, how dare those pandas start going after our windshield wipers? (Oh, wait, THAT WWF.)

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 7:01 PM
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@shepd: This is exactly why they say DON'T RUN WIPERS IF THEY'RE STUCK.

And you can't discount an entire car because a fluid motor runs out.

Sounds to me like you're running the fluid motor like mad trying to defrost your windsheild instead of following the manual's instructions and common sense and getting out of your damn car and scraping your windsheild. That's a DUH - the motor will overheat and blow.

Sounds to me like the fault is between the seat and the steering wheel.

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ElizabethD
January 12, 2009 2:31 PM
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P.S. I used to drive a little Mitsubishi hatchback -- sold under the Dodge Colt brand. Probably the best car I ever owned -- reliable, good in snow, engine hummed like a top. Ran that one into the ground in the high 100s mileage. The body actually started deteriorating (the winter salt around here is murder on metal) before the engine. Since then I've highly recommended Mitsubishis to anyone who will listen.

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TouchMyMonkey
January 12, 2009 7:39 PM
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@jopari actually likes the G1, thank you very much.: The problem is that unlike the original Beetles, they don't make US-market Vee-dubs in Germany, where they pay more attention to detail.

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dialing_wand
January 12, 2009 3:04 PM
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@ElizabethD: Same here. We had a crappy Plymouth Acclaim when I was young. However, it had a 3.0 litre Mitsubishi 6 in it. The engine was smooth after 400k kms. Now, mind you, my father was very good about maintenance, but nothing over the top.

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friendlynerd
January 12, 2009 3:17 PM
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@dialing_wand:
Oh man I had that engine in my Sundance - it was not a happy camper at any point in its (short) life.

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Mike Ortega
January 12, 2009 2:44 PM
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Does anyone else notice the absence of Nissan on this list? I've driven a Nissan in one shape or another since I turned 16 and they have all been heads over the 2 fords my wife and I have owned. I'm currently driving the wheels off of my 2001 Maxima at 105,000 miles and it'll still get up and go.

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6 replies
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Keter
January 13, 2009 4:42 AM
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@Mike Ortega: The older Datsuns and Nissans were great. But my son had a newer Nissan Sentra and it was a lemon from day one. He sold it and got a T-bird, which he loves and apparently is pretty reliable.

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ganjagadget
January 12, 2009 9:48 PM
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@Mike Ortega: I have 193,000+ miles on my 1991 Maxima that I drive for work. It is solid as a rock. No major service outside of the scheduled maintenance since I bought it at 90k miles. I also own a 2006 Nissan Murano that has been very reliable with 30k on it. Before these two cars I drove Datsun 510's with mileage ranging from 100k to 300k+. Nissan for life...

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Mike Ortega
January 13, 2009 2:20 AM
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@ganjagadget: Wow that's really funny, I drove a 1979 Datsun 510 all the way through high school that would still be rolling had some fool not run a red light an t-boned it. The even creepier thing is that I have the Maxima AND a 2004 Murano right now :) I've already told my wife that I'm getting a Nissan again when it's time.

@battra92: I've never had any issues with parts. in the 6 years we've owned it, I've only had to put tires on and scheduled maintainence at about 95k miles.

I also had an Xterra until we had to get rid of it as my wife couln't drive a 5-speed :/ I miss that thing it was a beast. Ya'll take care!

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battra92
January 12, 2009 9:02 PM
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@Mike Ortega: An acquaintance of mine used to complain about his wife's Nissan. He said it was a great car but murder to get parts for. I remember him telling about how he had to search all of the Northeast before he could find a dealer with a real defrost switch in stock before he went to Radio Shack and installed a toggle switch himself.

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bdsakx
January 12, 2009 4:23 PM
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@Mike Ortega: I agree, I wonder why they weren't on there? I've owned two so far and never once went to a repair shop. Their powertrains are tanks. I think my sunroof motor was the only thing to ever break, and that was my fault even.

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dumblonde
January 12, 2009 3:42 PM
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@Mike Ortega: Nissan is kind of on the list (as Infiniti). But yeah I'm surprised too. Well, the one thing that Nissan doesn't do very well is air conditioning. My boyfriend had an Xterra. The AC was broken all the time.

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Blueskylaw
January 12, 2009 2:44 PM
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Why are the front windshields always tinted?

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Rectilinear Propagation
January 12, 2009 3:17 PM
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@Blueskylaw: I think it's to hide the interior. Maybe it looks better in ads if you can only see the outside of the car.

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JanetCarol
January 12, 2009 2:45 PM
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I love my VW!!! Where is VW on that list?

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Chris Freemesser
January 12, 2009 5:36 PM
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@janetcarol:

I've owned two VWs in my life....a '98 Passat GLS V6 and an '02 Beetle GL. Both were terribly unreliable, worse than the Fords/Mercurys I drove before them, and worse than the Pontiac and Saturn I own now.

All sorts of problems too...electrical, suspension, exhaust, parts coming loose, etc. Lots of poor design choices in the cars led to many of the problems. I'm *very* glad that they're gone.

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GreatWhiteNorth
January 12, 2009 4:05 PM
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@janetcarol: I love my 2000 TDI Beetle (190K km)... although a few months ago I had to have the aftermarket chip upgrade removed because it was screwing up and causing the engine to die... but with it removed all the little annoyances are gone too.

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runchadrun
January 12, 2009 4:02 PM
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@janetcarol: I had a 2001 Jetta and virtually every system except the German-built engine and Argentine-built transmission had a problem. The rest of the car was built in Mexico. Airbag computer, ignition switch, water pump, catalytic converter, window regulators, the slidy thingy that moves the seats back and forth, vacuum hoses. I'm sure there was something else that I can't remember.

Worst. Car. Ever.

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Saboth
January 12, 2009 3:43 PM
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@janetcarol:

VW has very serious reliability problems these days. Consumer reports, JD Powers, etc all confirm it.

Funny, because they charge a premium price even above what most Japanese manufacturers charge, for a product that is below American quality. I guess word of mouth just hasn't caught up with them yet.

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TechnoDestructo
January 12, 2009 7:38 PM
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@Saboth:

These days? Or 8 years ago?

They are alleged to have fixed the worst of the problems of the MkIVs (ignition, windows).

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Anonymous
January 12, 2009 8:45 PM
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Looking at the list available to subscribers, VW is 25th out of 34 brands, just below Chevrolet but above GMC

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rpm773
January 12, 2009 6:13 PM
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@Saboth: Just like a lot of its drivers, VW has BMW envy.

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KyleOrton
January 12, 2009 4:35 PM
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@Saboth: What annoys me more about VW's marketing is their big, expensive safety campaigns when they make only averagely safe cars. They're not death traps, but if safety is a priority you can do better.

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friendlynerd
January 12, 2009 3:18 PM
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@janetcarol:
Probably near the bottom. VW is no longer known for reliability.

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sleze69
January 12, 2009 3:09 PM
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@janetcarol: The \"New\" Jettas had a lot of problems and don't even talk about the EOS convertables (fun to drive but horrible wrt reliability). As a result, a few bad apples really can ruin the bunch.


My TDI Passat is a dream car and actually WENT UP in value for a few months after I purchased it.


My Nissan Altima never broke unless I broke it.


My Ford Explorer was good until about 80k miles when everything slowly started to break and it bled me to death...leading me to buy my TDI.

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dialing_wand
January 12, 2009 3:05 PM
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@janetcarol: Pulled over on the side of the road trying to get the electrical system to stop yelling German obscenities. That and no one could get the plastic under the engine off to change the oil so they didn't bother.

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jopari: stuck on P.2
January 12, 2009 3:27 PM
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@dialing_wand: HA! I had the misfortune of driving a VW Cabrio over the summer and fell victim to both those bugaboos. Although if I recall correctly I was the one screaming in German after the electrical system failed for the umpteenth time. It even failed once while my girlfriend was driving it; luckily she was in the perfect place to pull over.

I will never, ever buy VW.

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Echodork
January 12, 2009 2:48 PM
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Welcome to the new Consumerist, where you'll be linking to account-required portions of the Consumer Reports website?

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mariospants
January 12, 2009 3:10 PM
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@Echodork: shhh quiet! At least we still have the Consumerist around and I've visited CR before thanks to the Consumerist so it's not like we're being forced commercials before the movie just yet.

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barco
January 12, 2009 3:00 PM
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Much has been mentioned of recalls on here so far.. Japanese makes seem to be much more willing to commit to a recall while the domestics will try to not have one if at all possible -- they probably have many more unresolved issues comparatively.

I have a 10-year old Toyota Tacoma with 270k miles on it and plenty of bruises on the body, and because of Toyota's frame rust warranty extension they're going to buy it back from me for $16,700 and send it to the crusher, just to avoid liability I assume. That's probably $12,000 more than it is worth. No US-make would go to that extent. Obviously, everybody wants to make a good product -- how else can a company stay competitive? Asian makes just seem more responsible and quick to respond to issues, they seem to have more respect for the consumer overall.

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Snarkysnake
January 12, 2009 3:02 PM
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Now just a cotton pickin'minute here, Jim...
According to the above, their conclusions are based on a survey of 1.4 MILLION vehicles. Thats a damn large sample size and has a lot more validity to me that anecdotal evidence that you cited above. (In fact,it's right at 10% of all the cars built in the USA last year). Even if you throw out confirmation bias from happy owners that are motivated to sing their cars praises and revenge from buyers that got a lemon,I think that the data are pretty clear.The real \"perception problem\" that Detroit apologists always whine about is that fact that these arrogant jackasses at the big 3 have been telling us for years that their cars are just as good or better than the competing brands that are kicking their asses. They did this in the 70's and it wasn't true (although they were relatively closer),they said it again in the 80's when it was ridiculous (import restraints meant that they didn't have to be that good because there was more demand than supply)and in the 90's, when the Japanese really ran off and left them in the dust (And the real decline of GM and Chrysler began) and now,because they have caught up to early 2000's Japanese quality,they think that they are owed 55-60 %of the market again. The Japanese don't have \"quality programs\" that they trot out when sales start sliding. They build the cars to last and it shows. They have earned their share of the market with unexciting,but high quality vehicles that are what people want. Detroit 's attitude towards its customers is obvious- If you don't buy our cars,we'll just make the government give us money anyway.Look again at the list above: GM has been in business for 100 years (and counting). Scion started ,if I recall in late 2003. GM had a 100 year head start and couldn't make the list. Scion is at the top.

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redkamel
January 13, 2009 7:05 AM
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@Snarkysnake: I would like to add that Japanese cars are far more exciting than American cars, unless you think repairs are exciting. I can only think of one \"cool\" american car and thats the vette. I dont count the recent rash of muscle car remakes, although they are cool. And if you reply the Mustang: No. The old one is far far prettier.

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redkamel
January 13, 2009 7:06 AM
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@redkamel: by \"you\" I mean \"anyone in general\" not Snarkysnake specifically, whom I wholeheartedly agree with except about japanese cars being boring. :-)

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failurate
January 12, 2009 5:27 PM
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@Snarkysnake: Scion is just a Toyota badge... sort of like Buick, but less elderly.

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Nick Brownfield
January 12, 2009 3:06 PM
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I don't know how much we can trust this list. Wasn't it consumer reports that rated the Toyota Corolla as having the best level of reliability but rated the Chevy Prizm as having the worst reliability? Why is that a problem you ask? They were exactly the same car, produced on the same assembly line, by the same workers. The only difference was the Chevy badge or the Toyota badge.

After that, it became clear to me that Consumer Reports was not trustworthy and I should seek my advice elsewhere.

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BlazerUnit
January 14, 2009 4:29 AM
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@Nick Brownfield: That's not true at all, Nick. I know that the Chevy/Geo Prizm was a longtime member of CR's 'Best Used Cars' list. Peruse a few CR Buying Guides and see for yourself.


As a matter of fact, the overall resale value on Prizms have actually been lower than that its Corolla brother--making it even more of a bargain.

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friendlynerd
January 12, 2009 3:19 PM
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@Nick Brownfield:
Where are you getting that data, an email forward? CR has recommended the Prizm right alongside the Corolla.

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chrysrobyn
January 12, 2009 3:07 PM
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Is The Consumerist now required to post more Consumer Reports articles as part of the acquisition? Every time I've read from Consumer Reports that is something I've known a little about, I've realized that it's published by enthusiasts, not experts. From half-thought-out testing methods to shoddy conclusions, I have no interest in reading their opinions. Just as they made their conclusions, so have I.

The most public example is the car seat fiasco (2006?).

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mariospants
January 12, 2009 3:11 PM
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@chrysrobyn: shhh quiet! At least we still have the Consumerist around and I've visited CR before thanks to the Consumerist so it's not like we're being forced commercials before the movie just yet.

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alfundo
January 12, 2009 3:07 PM
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I love my 2008 Scion xB!

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SecureLocation
January 12, 2009 3:07 PM
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Funny that people think Mercedes are among the most reliable when in fact they are not reliable at all. And no, it's not because Mercedes buyers are \"nitpicky\" it's because Mercedes are no longer reliable thanks to over engineering and faulty software.

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Saboth
January 12, 2009 5:04 PM
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@SecureLocation:

Chrysler owns Mercedes now, right? So the absolute worst car manufacturer is trying to produce reliable cars. My mom had a Sebring. Know how bad that car was? BOTH door handles broke off because they were cheap plastic. The interior mirror MELTED (no I am not kidding). This car has less than 30k miles on it! Never, ever buy a Chrysler.

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BlazerUnit
January 14, 2009 4:37 AM
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@Saboth: You don't know what you're talking about. Daimer-Benz took over Chrysler, not the other way around. And now Cerberus Capital took a majority ownership in Chrysler.


If you were wrong about this basic fact, why should anyone pay attention to your other quick assumptions (all domestics and VWs being crap)?

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failurate
January 12, 2009 5:37 PM
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@Saboth: Backwards and about 2 off. Chrysler was owned by Daimler-Benz... who then sold it to Cerebus in May 2007.

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KyleOrton
January 12, 2009 8:54 PM
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@failurate: But give Saboth credit for the right conclusion.

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Snarkysnake
January 12, 2009 4:14 PM
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@SecureLocation:

Couldn't agree more... Any independent Mercedes mechanic will tell you that the last good year for M-B was 1998. I 've owned five Panzers from Stuttgart and here is the breakdown:

1978 230 - Fantastic car. 28 Mpg on the highway. Couldn't break it. Sold with 400,000 miles. Had anti-lock brakes -in 1978!

1989 260E - Fantastic car.Never spent a day in the shop. Built like their lives depended on it. 320,000 miles.

1993 190 e -Pretty good car,but M-B dealers treated customers like shit because they didn't have a \"real\" Mercedes. 200,000 miles before my daughter totaled it.

1997 C230- Chevy Malibu that retailed for 36K. Constantly nickeled and dimed us . Electrical system produced by retarded criminals. Dealers told us to piss up a tree until we finally got the message and bought a Toyota. Dead and gone at 111,000 miles.

Mercedes these days are frauds. They are living on reputation.

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plyhard13
January 12, 2009 3:09 PM
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Kia and Hyundai, I think, still deserve their poor perception. They currently make stellar cars that are extremely reliable. However, when they first started importing vehicles to the U.S., they were truly, some of the most unreliable cars ever sold here.

As far as the Japanese cars being the most reliable, there's a reason. I interviewed at the Toyota West Coast port once. One of the stories I was told by the supervisor was that the quality control guys are graded on how many flaws they find in the finished cars. They were punished if the didn't find ENOUGH flaws. Yes, they were actually punished for not finding problems with the cars.

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oneliketadow
January 12, 2009 3:16 PM
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Ford as #3? Did they ask crack-heads to rank the auto companies?

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heathenkitties
January 12, 2009 3:18 PM
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I had a Chevy Lumina in the 90's that was ALWAYS breaking down...had to get rid of it at a loss. My mom had a Ford Taurus back in the 80's that was a complete lemon. Two brands I will never, ever buy, nor recommend.

I've had two Subarus and they were both very reliable, as was a very old Honda hatchback I drove for years. I drove an ancient Volvo for several years that never gave me any problems.

When I look for another vehicle (used, of course), I will be sticking to what works best for me--and maybe checking out some others I've seen on this thread!

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BlazerUnit
January 14, 2009 5:25 AM
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@heathenkitties: See, this is the problem I have with car buyers who say 'oh I'll never buy one of those again'. You're talking about a Ford built twenty years ago, and a Chevy from slightly over a decade ago--and holding their ills against the cars Ford & Chevy builds today. You're certainly entitled to your own biases, but allow me to find them totally illogical.


The newest Impala or Malibu shares nothing with your breakdownish Lumina other than a corporate bowtie logo. Same goes for your Mom's 80s Taurus versus a new 2008 Taurus or Fusion--or even ones built just five years ago in 2004/2003.


It's fine to buy what works for you, but don't limit your search because of outdated or isolated experiences. The Ford of 2009 isn't quite the Ford of 1989.


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BlackMage is doing the Time Warp agaaaaaaain!!!
January 12, 2009 3:28 PM
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Consumerist, it looks like you have some quick image modification to perform in order to save face with your loyal readers. I direct your attention to an article written by the great Ben Popken in Nov, 2006:

[consumerist.com]

Note the first sentence there: \"...always controversial ConsumerReports...\"

Whoops.

Flash forward to today with this highly suspect and questionable list. I am very disappointed in this lack of quality journalism that most of us already expect from the likes of Consumer Reports, but not Consumerist.

For the love of god, please don't become the very corporate shills and bootlicks that you have fought so hard against for the past few years. I'll be a loyal Consumerist reader until that noticeably happens, but none of us want to see it happen in the first place.

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Triborough
January 12, 2009 3:31 PM
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You need to make some notes with these lists!

Brand Perception - Top 10
1. Toyota
2. Honda
3. Ford
4. Cadillac
5. Mercedes-Benz
6. GMC
7. Lexus = Toyota that people pay way too much money for
8. BMW
9. Chevrolet
10. Volvo

Brand Reliability - Top 10
1. Scion = a Toyota by any other name is still a Toyota
2. Acura = Overpriced Honda
3. Honda
4. Toyota
5. Lexus = Overpriced Toyota
6. Infinity = Overpriced Nissan
7. Subaru
8. Hyundai
9. Mitsubishi
10. Kia

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Bryan Price
January 12, 2009 3:40 PM
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After my wife's ex had the experience of watching his wheel and part of the axle fly off the car on the interstate (The oldest son was driving, and he did a great job of getting off the road with wrecking on three wheels), we wrote Kia off.

Now the SUV had been in an accident the week before (a bizarre tale that I won't go into here), and instead of at least having it looked over, it was decided to take it from Florida to Maryland, and then back. It happened on the way back.

Now Kia did repair it under warranty, I will give it credit for that. But that just freaked my wife and I out.

So we ended up getting a Hyundai. If I had known how related those two companies are, it probably wouldn't have happened. I'd be driving a Marquis now, which was my second choice. But we bought the Sonata, it just recently put 40K up on the odometer, with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I had to put a set of tires on it at 40K, and found out that the alignment was all screwed up on it, which was why the tires didn't last as long as they could have (I'll still take 40K out of a factory set of tires).

It hasn't been ripped to shreds by the kids, unlike what happened to the wife's Saturn, and it hasn't need the motor overhauled and transmission overhauled like my wife's Saturn needed after that many miles.

Then again, we haven't had children driving it and running it into the ground either. I drive it 95% of the time, the wife 4% of the time (when she goes somewhere without me), and 1% of the time by the remaining kids for very short trips.

My wife works out of the country for three weeks out of the month, so she doesn't get that much time TO drive it.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 5:17 PM
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@Bryan Price: I was unaware that Kia = Hyundai as well until recently, but I haven't had one serious problem with my car that they wouldn't fix under warranty. (The only serious problem so far is that the rear passenger window stopped working).

For a 4-year-old car, I'd say that's pretty good.

I also experienced some low-mileage on my first set of factory tires and the dealership never reminded me to check the alignment so I ended up replacing mine after 25k.

Unfortunately Kia suffers from its reputation gained many years ago. After my experience purchasing a Hyundai, I would buy another one (maybe even a Kia) any day.

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gaberussell
January 12, 2009 3:53 PM
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@Bryan Price: You wrote off Kia because of a failure that was likely caused by an accident, and which they fixed for free? I'm missing the logic.

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RurouniX
January 12, 2009 4:11 PM
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1) HAHA...who the hell thinks that Fords are \"reliable\"? They may be reliable within the first 1-2 years you own them but anything beyond that is a \"bonus.\"

2) That list is kind of misleading. Honda owns Acura, Toyota owns Lexus and Scion, Nissan owns Infinity and so on and so forth. For all intensive purposes their \"reliability\" should be the same. Well maybe that's just my opinion.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 5:18 PM
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@RurouniX: I think their Trucks can be seen as reliable, but that should in no way hold up the rest of the brand.

After all the F-150 is the best selling \"car\" worldwide.

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RurouniX
January 12, 2009 4:16 PM
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@RurouniX: On another note - I know Hyundai and Kia have worked to make their cars better over the years but I don't think they'll ever overcome the stigma and notion that their cars are \"disposable cars\"...i.e. similar a disposable camera.

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LouisaTrigeminus
January 12, 2009 4:11 PM
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The list is actually:

1. Toyota
2. Honda
3. Honda
4. Toyota
5. Toyota
6. Nissan
7. Subaru
8. Hyundai
9. Mitsubishi
10. Hyundai

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Squeezer99
January 12, 2009 4:26 PM
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why isn't porsche on the list of reliable brands? their quality control is as good as toyota's. but in general i question these lists because most of the time they only go back 3 years or so. 3 years to me isn't reliable. i'd love to look at a list that tracks brands back 15 years.

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redkamel
January 13, 2009 7:13 AM
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@Squeezer99: my experience has been that if you have a good european car (not model, just a good day on the production line) then it should be ok. If not, it is not reliabke . I have a hard time believing Euros are worse than american cars though...maybe I am just scarred from my experience with our Suburban and how many times it broke/shut down/nearly killed me from breakage (which totals to about 4 major events/repairs in 5-6 years, and it was used).

but I would not buy an Audi or BMW just for the reliability. VW? MAYBE. But Japanese way better. Porsche only if I needed a sports car first...since the Japanese dont make any I like, and I dont like the vette. I have seen some good looking mustangs after bodywork though.

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mykie
January 12, 2009 6:11 PM
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@Squeezer99:
Because Porsche/Audi/VW are NOT more reliable than any of those cars. Anyone who's owned a Cayenne/Toureg or an Audi A4 will confirm this for you.

A general rule of thumb that I've seen with cars vs. reliability (IN THIS ORDER):

1. Asian
2. American
3. European

European cars across the board are less reliable simply because the European attitude towards cars involves more maintenance and less driving than we typically do here in the states.

Here in the states, we tend to beat the shit out of our cars and are more likely to go 6000 miles between oil changes. How many people do you know that have driven around for years with the \"Check Engine\" light illuminated?

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MKULTRABLIZZARD
January 12, 2009 4:27 PM
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i had a new, 1994 GMC Jimmy that was rock solid for about 70k miles. things slowly started to disintegrate around the 5yo mark. it was replaced with a Toyota 4Runner which required nothing but routine maintenance.

my brother had an '04 Passat which was a total lemon. he had trouble with electric, heating coils, engine sludge... the list goes on and on and it sat in the shop for months.

i was going to purchase a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 but after reading the horror stories of their reliability (i.e. in the shop after two weeks after purchase, busted trans, etc) i dropped that idea like a bad cold. fortunately, both of my fiance's GC's have held up just fine.

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axiomatic
January 12, 2009 4:28 PM
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6. Infinity

Not familiar with this brand?

I do however own an Infiniti G35.

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jamar0303
January 13, 2009 4:30 PM
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@axiomatic: Which is also known as a Nissan Skyline.

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Mrs. Stephen Fry
January 12, 2009 4:35 PM
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I have a Scion. And I love it. It has turned out to be incredibly reliable.

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silverundertone
January 12, 2009 4:39 PM
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regardless of what any list says, i am sold on toyota. my first car (and it will be my last!..i love it too damn much) is a '96 toyota tercel. almost 175,000 miles on it and no reliability issues or major repairs whatsoever. just change the oil whenever i remember to, perform the usual necessary maintenance when i can afford it, and no problems.

years ago, my father owned a '95 bmw 318ti which made a point of breaking down about every 5,000 miles or so. i swear that car had a death wish.

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Saboth
January 12, 2009 5:06 PM
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@silverundertone:

A friend of mine bought a brand new BMW a few years back. I swear that car was in the shop every few months.

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BBG
January 12, 2009 4:52 PM
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My problem with the CR data is that they only give you relative reliability (as in % better or worse than the average). Why not also include the actual numbers as well?

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redhelix
January 12, 2009 5:02 PM
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Um no.

It's not just a matter of how long the car can run before you start paying out heavily in repair bills that reflects it's reliability. I would like to see a study on how conscious owners of certain make cars are of keeping their machine in good repair, because it would surprise no one to see that Honda owners take better care of their cars than KIA owners.

Now, I know anecdotal evidence doesn't fly against \"studies\" like this, but I've owned Fords all throughout my driving career and all it's taken to keep them running is routine maintenance and regular changing of fluids. I have a monster 200k+ mile 1998 Explorer still braving the New England snow like it's brand new, a spiffy 2008 Ford Focus for long road trips, and a binder containing the complete maintenance history of both. I own reliable cars because I'm a responsible car owner.

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Y. Margarita Mayorga
January 12, 2009 5:06 PM
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This is a pretty inaccurate comparison that aludes to the fact that the best value of cars is their reliability. What about safety? Medical Bills cost more than repair bills. This comparison is absurd on many levels...


**This is like saying gee whiz my neck hurts for the rest of my life and I have a 20,000 in medical bills, but good thing my car didn't break down on the way to work ever!**


You can't compare two lists that aren't comparing the same thing. Comparing a list of best perceived brands(safety, quality, value, performance, environmental friendliness, design, and technological innovation) and actual reliability is not comparing the same thing. The accurate comparison would be actual reliability versus perceived reliability.


I really expected more from consumerist...

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jamar0303
January 13, 2009 5:35 PM
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@Y. Margarita Mayorga: Let's put it this way- a reliable car won't put you into a situation where you'd need to worry about safety in the first place.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 5:06 PM
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Truedelta.com is actually compiling reliability reports for ALL brands by using maintenance and trip reports from actual owners.

I'm participating with my Elantra.

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Stephen Brooks
January 12, 2009 5:10 PM
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I love my jeep. I had a 1993 until I got my 2008 Patriot. My aunt has had jeeps her whole life. I can't say anything bad about them. Sure there have been some bad years from new models but overall some of the older jeeps are lasting well over 200,000 miles. I had 280,000 before I got rid of mine. The only major thing I had done was the brakes were installed wrong and then I had the air conditioner fixed. Other then that I mean Jeeps probably are the most reliable car in my book. I'd never buy anything other then an SUV. I would stay with jeep as long as somebody keeps the quality good.

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pjsammy
January 12, 2009 5:13 PM
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*infiniti

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 5:13 PM
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As much as people think Hyundai and Kia, suck their reliability and quality has grown immensely in the past 10 years. I think they're being held down by a reputation they've well outgrown.

For the price point, I wouldn't buy a kia, but I'd be happy to buy a Hyundai again.

Yes, there have been recalls on my car (2005 Elantra) but I was notified quickly and the repairs were handled. Plus, I still have a year on my all-inclusive warranty.

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DarianAlcestis
January 12, 2009 5:25 PM
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Remember also that most folks only reply if there have been NEGATIVE issues (goes for most things). Thus, the anecdotal is further watered down by this.

However, if you read how CR does its Reliability data, this is all taken into consideration - and is/was listed on the explanation of each (or used to be the April car issue, though online it can be looked at whenever).

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downwithmonstercable
January 12, 2009 5:26 PM
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No F'ing way is Kia more reliable than all American/European cars. This list is a joke.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become
January 12, 2009 7:03 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: They are now. They're just lightened up Hyundai cars, now - and their reliability has gone up quite a bit over the past 10 years.

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downwithmonstercable
January 12, 2009 8:47 PM
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@Oranges w/ Cheese: While I have more respect for Hyundai as a company trying to rebuild their reputation as a legit car company, Kia still rings with crap quality. And I will still stand firm and say there is no way that Kia is more reliable than all American and European car companies.


Except maybe Volkswagen. They make beautiful, crappy cars.

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scootinger
January 12, 2009 11:29 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: Actually, Kia is owned by Hyundai and a number of their vehicles share platforms/engines/etc. There's still no question that Kia has an even bigger perception/marketing problem than Hyundai does, though.

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polymer girl
January 12, 2009 5:31 PM
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I have 160,000 miles and 12 years so far on my Honda Civic. I know someone who got over 350,000 miles on a Toyota Corolla. I'm sticking to the Japanese companies.

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ophmarketing
January 12, 2009 5:41 PM
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What I'd like to know is who the hell perceives GM, Chevy and Ford as reliable brands? MAYBE Ford trucks once upon a long ago, but today, all three brands are more or less synonymous with \"looks like another trip to the mechanic.\"

I AM surprised that Volvo isn't in the top 10, though. I thought that was pretty much all they had going for them.

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Rob Weddle
January 12, 2009 5:43 PM
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Glad to see Hyundai in the top ten \"actual\" list.

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P_Smith
January 12, 2009 5:43 PM
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I'm surprised that Mazda isn't on the \"most reliable\" list. It's something they have track record of, not just public perception.

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downwithmonstercable
January 12, 2009 8:48 PM
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@Smashville: They have Ford components mixed around, but most of their stuff is Mazda's own engineering.

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jamar0303
January 13, 2009 5:38 PM
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@downwithmonstercable: Unfortunately enough Ford parts to make people worry.

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Rob Weddle
January 12, 2009 6:36 PM
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I wouldn't touch a post-mid-90's model VW with a ten foot pole. I don't know what they did coming out of the 80's, but VW went to shit in a hurry.

The '86 Cabriolet that I used to drive, however, was fun as hell and built like a tank. I'd love to find another one.

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Anonymous
January 12, 2009 7:21 PM
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2000 Grand Prix 162,000 and no trouble still going strong.2004 Maxima 120.000 and $1,600 for a timing chain later - still going.CR are a bunch of haters for US built cars but will leghump the japs, koreans, and europeans to death...pathetic.

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jamar0303
January 13, 2009 5:39 PM
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@RyanEros: ...completely ignoring the fact that \"the japs, koreans, and europeans\" are now the ones making US-built cars. It's called irony.

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Anonymous
January 12, 2009 7:31 PM
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I don't have access to CR to look at their method of analysis, but it's possible that, because Scions and Acuras are so cheap overall (compared to, especially, Lexus), that their repair bills are equally low simply because the parts and such are cheaper than that of a Lexus.

Whether that matters to consumers is up for debate, but a different segment of people shop for Lexi than those who shop for Acurae.

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bmwloco
January 12, 2009 7:46 PM
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Consumer Reports now owns this site.

They HATE European cars. I don't buy toasters from AutoWeek, so I trust Consumer Reports in about the same measure.

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WasabiJoe
January 12, 2009 7:59 PM
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I question the reliability sections of the list. From the page I gathered that they're listing percentage of broken vehicles but I wonder who they sampled, and how many respondents there were in each category. I mean, if you're going to poll 100 Scion users and 10,000 Toyota users chances are Toyota is going to have more broken down vehicles. Does that means Scion is more reliable than Toyota? Not necessarily, because Toyota sold that many more cars and if Scion had the same number of cars out in the real world they might have even more broken down cars. From the article I infer that they just polled subscribers to CR and worked with the data that was given. But still, you have to take the \"reliability\" numbers with a grain of salt.

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jamar0303
January 13, 2009 5:40 PM
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@WasabiJoe: And that doesn't take into account that Scion=Toyota.

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bmwloco
January 12, 2009 8:01 PM
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Kelly Blue Book Best Resale 2008

Volkswagen 48.1
BMW 45.6
Acura 45.4
Honda 45.2
Porsche 44.9
Subaru 44.4
Lexus 43.2
Audi 42.6
Toyota 41.4

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bbagdan
January 12, 2009 8:08 PM
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Reliability statistics are deceptive. The more expensive the car, typically the more sensors and powered amenities; and during the first few months something minor goes awry requiring minor adjustment or resetting. These minor things get counted in the reliability statistics.


I can put a kleenex box on four wheels and push it around and there will be no reliability problems in the first year.


Compare a 300,000 mile Volvo to a 300,000 mile Hyundai (if any exist). Which do you prefer?

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BlazerUnit
January 14, 2009 5:32 AM
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@bbagdan: I'm not sure your last comparison/example works. If any 300k Hyundais do exist, then you probably got your money's worth out of it--and likely with a much lower starting price.


Unless you really are trying to tell us that a ton of bricks weighs more than a ton of feathers.

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njtrout
January 12, 2009 8:12 PM
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By the way, Scions ARE Toyota's, so Toyota has 1st and 4th place in reliability. So glad I own a Scion :-)

NJTrout

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parad0x360
January 12, 2009 8:26 PM
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Go Acura woohoo!

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FrankenPC
January 12, 2009 8:47 PM
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Scion = Toyota, Acura = Honda...or am I mistaken?

Regardless...GMC #6??? Who in their right mind would list an American auto manufacturer in a top 10 list of reliability? Am I the only one who after 5 American cars swore I would never buy another one?

(yeah! Infiniti(Nissan) is #6!)

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mzs
January 12, 2009 8:54 PM
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There is NO way Mitsu is so close to the top. I know to many Mitsubishi mechanics and service managers.

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srenee
January 12, 2009 8:56 PM
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Really? Ford and Chevrolet made the perceived list? I though it would be the opposite. Like me thinking \"omg ford sucks\" and then Consumer Reports comes and blows my mind with a report that says \"Buy Fords now! You have no idea - they really are built ford tough\".


Glad to know my perceptions are more spot-on than general America's

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xkevin108x
January 12, 2009 9:14 PM
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Why would this list the common brands apart from each other? Scion, Toyota and Lexus are the same thing to me as are Chevy, GMC, Cadilliac and Saturn.

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Dansc29625
January 13, 2009 12:16 AM
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I was talking to a Mechanic who had to replace a Kia Rio motor, Absolute Junk he says.

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Keter
January 13, 2009 4:37 AM
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225,000 miles on my '93 Acura Integra and it's still running like new - and getting 30-36 MPG. Hands down it is the best and cheapest-to-keep car I've ever had. I've had it for eight years now, and intend to keep it until I can't find parts for it. The only real problem I've had with it is that it chews through engine mounts about every 60K miles (design flaw).

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zolielo
January 13, 2009 5:30 AM
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I am surprised that Nissan is not on the reliable list as they are often similar Infiniti.

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I want my Pepsi Throwback back!
January 13, 2009 6:04 AM
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This is why my mom bought a Honda. And she works for Chrysler.

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Psychicsword
January 13, 2009 2:48 PM
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I am currently driving my dad's 10 year old lexus with 168,000 miles on it. As of yet it has not needed repairs outside of the typical oil changes, new tires and a new battery. Because of this I will now buy lexus in the future.

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Anonymous
January 13, 2009 3:28 PM
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I find it hard to believe that Mazda is nowhere to be found on this list. I put 250k on my 96 protege and never broke a darn thing on the car. The fit and finish of it held up so nicely that I went and got an 04 Mazda 6 last summer. Can you imagine getting a fully loaded 4 year old car with 100k and finding absolutely NOTHING wrong with it then and 6 months later not a thing has gone wrong with it (and I'm in sales and drive constantly). Consumer reports constantly has Mazda vehicles on their list of recommended vehicles yet this study seems to forget they even exist.

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Leksi Wit
January 13, 2009 4:39 PM
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Um, this article looks like a big, veiled ad for Consumer Reports, the company who bought this web site.

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BlazerUnit
January 14, 2009 5:48 AM
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@Leksi Wit: You say that as if its an eye-opening revelation. Naturally they were going to have some synergy between the two ventures. To expect otherwise is naive.

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ram0029
January 13, 2009 4:51 PM
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Perception and anecdotal evidence corrupt this type of \"study\" from the get go because it is based on a consumer survey.


This can be seen when reliability ratings based on consumer surveys, like this one, are compared with long-term reliability ratings based on actual vists to be repaired after 3 years. The two lists are often considerably different with brands like Cadillac and Mercury ranking in the top 5 at 3 years for repairs and toyota and nissan being well down the list.


The survey bias is demonstarted nicely by a conversation I had with one of my wife's friends...


She just bought a new Prius and made the comment after she heard what happened to my car no way was she going to anything american.


My response was it was a 5 year old Chevy Impala with 196,000 miles on it and the engine block cracked because I drove it through water that was half way up the door (dont ask....). But prior to that it had been repaired one time for a control box going out that cost me $800.


Her answer, well my 2002 Toyota Camry had over 200k miles on it and had never had any problem.


Her husband's answer sitting next to her.... *laugh* *snort* Huh? that thing had been in the shop more for the last two years than they had driven it.


Her answer... that was just for minor stuff.


The minor stuff included a $3,0000 transmission repair. New water pump. New wiper motor. and a new catalytic convertor...
These are the people answering these surveys.


Moral: find the car you like and buy it. Quality has narrowed considerably in the last decade and most repairs are going to occur quickly and be under warranty anyway.

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BlazerUnit
January 14, 2009 5:43 AM
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@ram0029: Bravo. These surveys/tests are still educated guesses and not an actual reflection of individual incidences. It is entirely possible to get a Honda that stays in the shop and a Pontiac that wants nothing but regular gas and oil. Life is contextual like that--you're still taking a chance, even if a book says its a safe bet.

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tworld
January 16, 2009 9:30 PM
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I DON'T CARE WHAT THE REPORT SAYS . . . . I LOVE MY VW NEW BEETLE.

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Andy Hilal
January 17, 2009 12:02 AM
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Go Scion! (well, it's really just a Toyota)

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Andy Hilal
January 17, 2009 12:04 AM
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A history professor of mine once ranted like crazy about the KIA brand. Apparently, during the Vietnam war, news media would report the American casualties on TV every night as the \"Killed in Action\" count, or KIAs. \"Why would you ever use that term to name a car??\"

KIA isn't a term you hear so much anymore. But I guess if 20 years from now a car company called WMD hits the market, I'll know how he felt.

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Timmy Gonzalez
January 17, 2009 5:37 PM
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Things Ford doesn't like to broadcast is that something like 40% of their profits are from service and repairs.

(I'm pretty sure i just made up that number but it's def way higher than you would think. and makes you think twice about Ford.)

p.s. I got a 1990 Toyota Camry 150k+ never had a problem

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Anonymous
February 17, 2009 7:25 PM
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Granted, I didn't read through 79 pages of responses, but has anyone taken the time to determine what the difference is between 1st place and 10th place? If Ford or GM is in 12th or 15th place or whatever, but the actual difference is a 0.5% increase in repairs, I'd call that even. I don't have a CR account so I can't do it.

Also, it should be noted that while Ford is out there trumpeting their success in quality improvements, it's not THEIR data they're using. It's JDP, CR, and other third-party reviewers.

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