Also, it should be noted that while Ford is out there trumpeting their success in quality improvements, it's not THEIR data they're using. It's JDP, CR, and other third-party reviewers.

(I'm pretty sure i just made up that number but it's def way higher than you would think. and makes you think twice about Ford.)

p.s. I got a 1990 Toyota Camry 150k+ never had a problem

KIA isn't a term you hear so much anymore. But I guess if 20 years from now a car company called WMD hits the market, I'll know how he felt.

Think about it, and enjoy your luck, bestowed by the demigod of GM.

@Leksi Wit: You say that as if its an eye-opening revelation. Naturally they were going to have some synergy between the two ventures. To expect otherwise is naive.

@ram0029: Bravo. These surveys/tests are still educated guesses and not an actual reflection of individual incidences. It is entirely possible to get a Honda that stays in the shop and a Pontiac that wants nothing but regular gas and oil. Life is contextual like that--you're still taking a chance, even if a book says its a safe bet.

@bbagdan: I'm not sure your last comparison/example works. If any 300k Hyundais do exist, then you probably got your money's worth out of it--and likely with a much lower starting price.

Unless you really are trying to tell us that a ton of bricks weighs more than a ton of feathers.

@heathenkitties: See, this is the problem I have with car buyers who say 'oh I'll never buy one of those again'. You're talking about a Ford built twenty years ago, and a Chevy from slightly over a decade ago--and holding their ills against the cars Ford & Chevy builds today. You're certainly entitled to your own biases, but allow me to find them totally illogical.

The newest Impala or Malibu shares nothing with your breakdownish Lumina other than a corporate bowtie logo. Same goes for your Mom's 80s Taurus versus a new 2008 Taurus or Fusion--or even ones built just five years ago in 2004/2003.

It's fine to buy what works for you, but don't limit your search because of outdated or isolated experiences. The Ford of 2009 isn't quite the Ford of 1989.

@Saboth: You don't know what you're talking about. Daimer-Benz took over Chrysler, not the other way around. And now Cerberus Capital took a majority ownership in Chrysler.

If you were wrong about this basic fact, why should anyone pay attention to your other quick assumptions (all domestics and VWs being crap)?

@chrysrobyn: It IS their baby, chrys.

@Nick Brownfield: That's not true at all, Nick. I know that the Chevy/Geo Prizm was a longtime member of CR's 'Best Used Cars' list. Peruse a few CR Buying Guides and see for yourself.

As a matter of fact, the overall resale value on Prizms have actually been lower than that its Corolla brother--making it even more of a bargain.

@Echodork: I see it hasn't made you leave.

Perception and anecdotal evidence corrupt this type of "study" from the get go because it is based on a consumer survey.

This can be seen when reliability ratings based on consumer surveys, like this one, are compared with long-term reliability ratings based on actual vists to be repaired after 3 years. The two lists are often considerably different with brands like Cadillac and Mercury ranking in the top 5 at 3 years for repairs and toyota and nissan being well down the list.

The survey bias is demonstarted nicely by a conversation I had with one of my wife's friends...

She just bought a new Prius and made the comment after she heard what happened to my car no way was she going to anything american.

My response was it was a 5 year old Chevy Impala with 196,000 miles on it and the engine block cracked because I drove it through water that was half way up the door (dont ask....). But prior to that it had been repaired one time for a control box going out that cost me $800.

Her answer, well my 2002 Toyota Camry had over 200k miles on it and had never had any problem.

Her husband's answer sitting next to her.... *laugh* *snort* Huh? that thing had been in the shop more for the last two years than they had driven it.

Her answer... that was just for minor stuff.

The minor stuff included a $3,0000 transmission repair. New water pump. New wiper motor. and a new catalytic convertor...
These are the people answering these surveys.

Moral: find the car you like and buy it. Quality has narrowed considerably in the last decade and most repairs are going to occur quickly and be under warranty anyway.

but I would not buy an Audi or BMW just for the reliability. VW? MAYBE. But Japanese way better. Porsche only if I needed a sports car first...since the Japanese dont make any I like, and I dont like the vette. I have seen some good looking mustangs after bodywork though.

@battra92: I've never had any issues with parts. in the 6 years we've owned it, I've only had to put tires on and scheduled maintainence at about 95k miles.

I also had an Xterra until we had to get rid of it as my wife couln't drive a 5-speed :/ I miss that thing it was a beast. Ya'll take care!

*THAT'S* probably why you haven't seen a recall for your GM vehicle. GM doesn't give a %$@#.

In fact, the Ford Explorer is pretty reliable...as long as the cruise control unit doesn't cause the truck to burst into flames.

@changed my name:

I have a 2007 Kia Rio and if you want to laugh at it go ahead. It has the same engine has a brand new Hyundai Accent and is built on the same unibody. A Kia Rio is basicly an Accent and as was already mentioned they are both the same company these days. The Kia Rio is a great little car that has great side and front impact ratings and the car has 10 different air bags in in.

Does your car have 10 different air bags in it and it only cost you 12K? I doubt it.

I also get 38 MPG when I'm doing 55 MPH and when I'm driving 80 MPH I get 30 MPG. Do you get that kind of gas mileage in your car?

So go ahead and laugh and point at my Kia Rio. I have placed over 17,000 miles on it in less than 6 months without one issue at all. So again, point in laugh all you desire.

@Jim Topoleski: Jim? Jiiiiiim? Jiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmm? Are you there Jim? Did you leave us because you found out you were wrong or did your facebook account time out?

@esp13: the article says the number is actually 1.4 million

@rob_p: no, i think blainer got it right. he used "antidotal" properly to show Jim Topoleski the error of his ways.

@blainer: [snickers] fantastic.

@battra92: Yeah, how dare those pandas start going after our windshield wipers? (Oh, wait, THAT WWF.)

Oh wait, I'm thinking of something else. ;)

Really? Ford and Chevrolet made the perceived list? I though it would be the opposite. Like me thinking "omg ford sucks" and then Consumer Reports comes and blows my mind with a report that says "Buy Fords now! You have no idea - they really are built ford tough".

Glad to know my perceptions are more spot-on than general America's

She drove it once and now she wants one just like it.

Kias I still wonder about. My uncle has the minivan and he's had a few weird issues with it but my uncle is down right rotten to all cars.

@Smashville: They have Ford components mixed around, but most of their stuff is Mazda's own engineering.

Regardless...GMC #6??? Who in their right mind would list an American auto manufacturer in a top 10 list of reliability? Am I the only one who after 5 American cars swore I would never buy another one?

(yeah! Infiniti(Nissan) is #6!)

@Oranges w/ Cheese: While I have more respect for Hyundai as a company trying to rebuild their reputation as a legit car company, Kia still rings with crap quality. And I will still stand firm and say there is no way that Kia is more reliable than all American and European car companies.

Except maybe Volkswagen. They make beautiful, crappy cars.

NJTrout

Reliability statistics are deceptive. The more expensive the car, typically the more sensors and powered amenities; and during the first few months something minor goes awry requiring minor adjustment or resetting. These minor things get counted in the reliability statistics.

I can put a kleenex box on four wheels and push it around and there will be no reliability problems in the first year.

Compare a 300,000 mile Volvo to a 300,000 mile Hyundai (if any exist). Which do you prefer?

Volkswagen 48.1
BMW 45.6
Acura 45.4
Honda 45.2
Porsche 44.9
Subaru 44.4
Lexus 43.2
Audi 42.6
Toyota 41.4

Plus, they hold their value like almost no other car on the market.

They HATE European cars. I don't buy toasters from AutoWeek, so I trust Consumer Reports in about the same measure.

These days? Or 8 years ago?

They are alleged to have fixed the worst of the problems of the MkIVs (ignition, windows).

Whether that matters to consumers is up for debate, but a different segment of people shop for Lexi than those who shop for Acurae.

Of course, a 2000 Focus is now worth something like three grand, so it's up to you whether you want to spend that kind of dough to bring your Focus back to spec.

"I really don't believe the Kia and Hyundai ones; not with what I've heard about those brands."

Yes, and the interesting thing is, that's exactly what this study is about: perception vs. reality.

Your perception is that Kia and Hyundai are not reliable. The reality is that they are. See!

I love my xA very much. It's a rock solid reliable car, and it's a lot of fun to drive.

It's even more frustrating that the mechanic couldn't replace it without taking the whole steering column apart. Turns out the original lock cylinder was cast from some inferior garbage metal, the kind they make cheap dollar-store knockoff Matchbox cars out of. The one he replaced it with was much more robust.

Moral - American compact cars suck because they make them in MEXICO. Why Mexico? Because the Detroit Three don't actually want to make or sell compact cars at all, but if they're forced to by CAFE, they'll have them slapped together by the lowest non-UAW bidder from the cheapest materials possible. They may as well have been made in China and sold at Wal-Mart.

And you can't discount an entire car because a fluid motor runs out.

Sounds to me like you're running the fluid motor like mad trying to defrost your windsheild instead of following the manual's instructions and common sense and getting out of your damn car and scraping your windsheild. That's a DUH - the motor will overheat and blow.

Sounds to me like the fault is between the seat and the steering wheel.

Hey, are you trying to be sarcastic here?!

The wo/man just spent the last 20 minutes writing not ONE, but TWO replies to your post, wasting valuable moments of his life, and you haven't even answered his ad hominem question!

floraposte, I expected much more out of you... really. If you took as much time as LJKelly to systematically attack and digress into anecdotal posturing, I wouldn't have to be writing this.

For shame.

Of course one of the best cars I ever had was a '62 Ford Wagon, ran on fumes and maypops lol. Took that sucker cross country and back and as long as I kept an eye on the mileage I never ran out of gas. Had to replace the generator in OK City but no probs other than that. Driving a 2000 Dodge Stratus now that will paid off next month :D that is every bit as good as that old Ford. LOL maybe better cuz the gas gauge works :D

@nytmare: I also love how the "most reliable" brand is the youngest one on the market. How does that prove overall reliability at all?

@Saboth:

Not so much. My wife and I both have domestics.

They are nine and ten years old. One has 122K on it, the other 89K. Neither one has required much more than wear and tear maintenance.

The '86 Cabriolet that I used to drive, however, was fun as hell and built like a tank. I'd love to find another one.

I've owned a Toyota for the last 15 years (two different vehicles). In all that time, I've been to the shop only for routine maintenance. My dad, mother, uncle and brother have all owned Fords in that time. I can't count the number of times I've given them rides to pick up/drop off their vehicles. It's in the dozens.

That's anecdotal, sure, but so is the makeup of the first list. If asked, my family would say their Fords are reliable, because they like their cars (and they all have a misguided notion that they are buying an American vehicle). Reality would disagree, and my memories of how many times I've heard they had to take their cars in disagrees as well.

Recalls are not usually reliability issues, and different companies have different thresholds of seriousness for an issue before they'll do a recall.

Oh and they aren't stolen as much as Hondas or Toyotas so my insurance is less. ;)

A general rule of thumb that I've seen with cars vs. reliability (IN THIS ORDER):

1. Asian
2. American
3. European

European cars across the board are less reliable simply because the European attitude towards cars involves more maintenance and less driving than we typically do here in the states.

Here in the states, we tend to beat the shit out of our cars and are more likely to go 6000 miles between oil changes. How many people do you know that have driven around for years with the "Check Engine" light illuminated?

Some of the Legacy variants (Legacy, Outback, and Baja) are built at the Indiana plant. Everything based on the Impreza (Impreza, Forester, and WRX/STi variants) is built at the Gunma, Japan plant.

I'm surprised that Mazda isn't on the "most reliable" list. It's something they have track record of, not just public perception.

I AM surprised that Volvo isn't in the top 10, though. I thought that was pretty much all they had going for them.

I've owned two VWs in my life....a '98 Passat GLS V6 and an '02 Beetle GL. Both were terribly unreliable, worse than the Fords/Mercurys I drove before them, and worse than the Pontiac and Saturn I own now.

All sorts of problems too...electrical, suspension, exhaust, parts coming loose, etc. Lots of poor design choices in the cars led to many of the problems. I'm *very* glad that they're gone.

No F'ing way is Kia more reliable than all American/European cars. This list is a joke.

Maybe I can straddle the car....

However, if you read how CR does its Reliability data, this is all taken into consideration - and is/was listed on the explanation of each (or used to be the April car issue, though online it can be looked at whenever).

After all the F-150 is the best selling "car" worldwide.

For a 4-year-old car, I'd say that's pretty good.

I also experienced some low-mileage on my first set of factory tires and the dealership never reminded me to check the alignment so I ended up replacing mine after 25k.

Unfortunately Kia suffers from its reputation gained many years ago. After my experience purchasing a Hyundai, I would buy another one (maybe even a Kia) any day.

For the price point, I wouldn't buy a kia, but I'd be happy to buy a Hyundai again.

Yes, there have been recalls on my car (2005 Elantra) but I was notified quickly and the repairs were handled. Plus, I still have a year on my all-inclusive warranty.

OTOH, my husband and I both drive Focuses (Foci?) and have found them very reliable and Ford only moderately pain-in-the-assy to deal with the one time we had a problem with one. (And again, of course, the plural of anecdote is not data. But I like my Focus.)

Actually, no they don't. You could read their Reliability Survey FAQ, where they go into detail about how they record and evaluate failures in 17 different categories such as "engine major" "transmission", etc. :
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/new-cars/auto-test/consumer-reports-car-reliability-faq-8-06/overview/0608_consumer-reports-carreliability-faq_ov.htm

"
3.3. Are all problems considered equally serious?
Problems with the engine-major, cooling system, transmission-major, and driveline are more likely to take a car out of service and to be more expensive to repair than the other problem areas. Consequently, we weigh these areas more heavily in our calculations of Used Car Verdicts and Predicted Reliability."

I'm participating with my Elantra.

This is a pretty inaccurate comparison that aludes to the fact that the best value of cars is their reliability. What about safety? Medical Bills cost more than repair bills. This comparison is absurd on many levels...

**This is like saying gee whiz my neck hurts for the rest of my life and I have a 20,000 in medical bills, but good thing my car didn't break down on the way to work ever!**

You can't compare two lists that aren't comparing the same thing. Comparing a list of best perceived brands(safety, quality, value, performance, environmental friendliness, design, and technological innovation) and actual reliability is not comparing the same thing. The accurate comparison would be actual reliability versus perceived reliability.

I really expected more from consumerist...

A friend of mine bought a brand new BMW a few years back. I swear that car was in the shop every few months.

Chrysler owns Mercedes now, right? So the absolute worst car manufacturer is trying to produce reliable cars. My mom had a Sebring. Know how bad that car was? BOTH door handles broke off because they were cheap plastic. The interior mirror MELTED (no I am not kidding). This car has less than 30k miles on it! Never, ever buy a Chrysler.

It's not just a matter of how long the car can run before you start paying out heavily in repair bills that reflects it's reliability. I would like to see a study on how conscious owners of certain make cars are of keeping their machine in good repair, because it would surprise no one to see that Honda owners take better care of their cars than KIA owners.

Now, I know anecdotal evidence doesn't fly against "studies" like this, but I've owned Fords all throughout my driving career and all it's taken to keep them running is routine maintenance and regular changing of fluids. I have a monster 200k+ mile 1998 Explorer still braving the New England snow like it's brand new, a spiffy 2008 Ford Focus for long road trips, and a binder containing the complete maintenance history of both. I own reliable cars because I'm a responsible car owner.

My problem with the CR data is that they only give you relative reliability (as in % better or worse than the average). Why not also include the actual numbers as well?

That all said, my friends and I used to make fun of Hyundai. But we also said that it was like Honda in the mid-70s...and that one day Hyundai would make good cars. And we were right.

years ago, my father owned a '95 bmw 318ti which made a point of breaking down about every 5,000 miles or so. i swear that car had a death wish.

The problem here is you have CR reporting reliability without using anything but antidotal data.

CU isn't perfect, but you do realize that you're arguing against a sample size of anecdotal evidence with your personal anecdotal evidence. I'd usually go with the larger sample size.

BTW, to add to our own sample, of all of my family's cars the two best have been a Lexus RX350 and a Subaru Legacy and the two worst were a 99 Chevy Malibu and a 2001 Mitsubishi Galant. I steer clear of those brands now.

Not familiar with this brand?

I do however own an Infiniti G35.

I don't know, when a company takes a full page ad apologizing for poor designs, I think you should listen:

[consumerist.com]

my brother had an '04 Passat which was a total lemon. he had trouble with electric, heating coils, engine sludge... the list goes on and on and it sat in the shop for months.

i was going to purchase a Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8 but after reading the horror stories of their reliability (i.e. in the shop after two weeks after purchase, busted trans, etc) i dropped that idea like a bad cold. fortunately, both of my fiance's GC's have held up just fine.

why isn't porsche on the list of reliable brands? their quality control is as good as toyota's. but in general i question these lists because most of the time they only go back 3 years or so. 3 years to me isn't reliable. i'd love to look at a list that tracks brands back 15 years.

Couldn't agree more... Any independent Mercedes mechanic will tell you that the last good year for M-B was 1998. I 've owned five Panzers from Stuttgart and here is the breakdown:

1978 230 - Fantastic car. 28 Mpg on the highway. Couldn't break it. Sold with 400,000 miles. Had anti-lock brakes -in 1978!

1989 260E - Fantastic car.Never spent a day in the shop. Built like their lives depended on it. 320,000 miles.

1993 190 e -Pretty good car,but M-B dealers treated customers like shit because they didn't have a "real" Mercedes. 200,000 miles before my daughter totaled it.

1997 C230- Chevy Malibu that retailed for 36K. Constantly nickeled and dimed us . Electrical system produced by retarded criminals. Dealers told us to piss up a tree until we finally got the message and bought a Toyota. Dead and gone at 111,000 miles.

Mercedes these days are frauds. They are living on reputation.

1. Toyota
2. Honda
3. Honda
4. Toyota
5. Toyota
6. Nissan
7. Subaru
8. Hyundai
9. Mitsubishi
10. Hyundai

2) That list is kind of misleading. Honda owns Acura, Toyota owns Lexus and Scion, Nissan owns Infinity and so on and so forth. For all intensive purposes their "reliability" should be the same. Well maybe that's just my opinion.

Worst. Car. Ever.

Try taking an Acura to a Honda dealer or a Lexus to a Toyota dealer and see what kind of service you get.

I miss it, but I'm a wiser man because of it, too.

@smythe: I will NEVER own another ford again. Ford station wagon - constant break downs. Ford Minivan - constant breakdowns. ford taurus - constant radiator blowing, transmission failure, etc. I bought a mazda 626 to replace the taurus, thinking that I finally got away. BUT NO! the 626's CD4E engine is made by Ford and apparently always fails after 100k miles!! So, lifetime ban on ford.

VW has very serious reliability problems these days. Consumer reports, JD Powers, etc all confirm it.

Funny, because they charge a premium price even above what most Japanese manufacturers charge, for a product that is below American quality. I guess word of mouth just hasn't caught up with them yet.

Now the SUV had been in an accident the week before (a bizarre tale that I won't go into here), and instead of at least having it looked over, it was decided to take it from Florida to Maryland, and then back. It happened on the way back.

Now Kia did repair it under warranty, I will give it credit for that. But that just freaked my wife and I out.

So we ended up getting a Hyundai. If I had known how related those two companies are, it probably wouldn't have happened. I'd be driving a Marquis now, which was my second choice. But we bought the Sonata, it just recently put 40K up on the odometer, with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I had to put a set of tires on it at 40K, and found out that the alignment was all screwed up on it, which was why the tires didn't last as long as they could have (I'll still take 40K out of a factory set of tires).

It hasn't been ripped to shreds by the kids, unlike what happened to the wife's Saturn, and it hasn't need the motor overhauled and transmission overhauled like my wife's Saturn needed after that many miles.

Then again, we haven't had children driving it and running it into the ground either. I drive it 95% of the time, the wife 4% of the time (when she goes somewhere without me), and 1% of the time by the remaining kids for very short trips.

My wife works out of the country for three weeks out of the month, so she doesn't get that much time TO drive it.

"Dale: You know what the problem is? It's a Ford. You know what Ford stands for? Fix It Again Tony.
Hank: Dale, that's a Fiat. "

Well, it sure couldn't be because American companies fight tooth and nail to not issue recalls while non-American auto companies attempt to fix the problem when there is one.

Brand Perception - Top 10
1. Toyota
2. Honda
3. Ford
4. Cadillac
5. Mercedes-Benz
6. GMC
7. Lexus = Toyota that people pay way too much money for
8. BMW
9. Chevrolet
10. Volvo

Brand Reliability - Top 10
1. Scion = a Toyota by any other name is still a Toyota
2. Acura = Overpriced Honda
3. Honda
4. Toyota
5. Lexus = Overpriced Toyota
6. Infinity = Overpriced Nissan
7. Subaru
8. Hyundai
9. Mitsubishi
10. Kia

[consumerist.com]

Note the first sentence there: "...always controversial ConsumerReports..."

Whoops.

Flash forward to today with this highly suspect and questionable list. I am very disappointed in this lack of quality journalism that most of us already expect from the likes of Consumer Reports, but not Consumerist.

For the love of god, please don't become the very corporate shills and bootlicks that you have fought so hard against for the past few years. I'll be a loyal Consumerist reader until that noticeably happens, but none of us want to see it happen in the first place.

@LJKelley: Let me add. I have 2005 C240, my friend has a 2004 CLK500. No issues whatsoever. My sister in law as a Kia and my neighbor has a Kia. While nothing that has stopped their 'reliability' I suppose they have had several warranty issue. My sister in law even instigated a recall being the first (of then several) to report an issue which took several visits for them to even repair. I'm not saying this is any more fair or accurate than what CR is doing, but it does seem odd that 100% of the MB I know about have had no issues while 100% of the Kia's I know about have had issues. And while i'm not a rude or bitchy MB owner, my friend is. He got really mad they used the wrong cleaner in his car...

I will never, ever buy VW.

Then I'm going to bronze it.

@floraposte: Can you not read? If you click both links, you are correct obviously in that the Brand Perception poll based on 1400 adults. However if you read that Reliability Rating is based on SUBSCRIBERS and thus I agree when Mercedes-Benz publicly stated that the ratings are flawed. In fact oddly enough, one year after their complaints MB is now up and CR now 'recommends them' as opposed to not before.

Its very hard to measure these things as I know I baby my car and its in probably more than it should and for anything minor I feel need done. So surveys (I've seen them) that ask how many times your car was serviced are quite wrong. It doesn't hurt the I get a free loaner car, so its not an inconvience to me.

Yes MB did have issues (with the radiator, and heat kills) on the early 2000s C Classes, but I know that E has always had very good reliability and MB had internal quality results from warranty claims etc that did not match up to what CR was saying. They complain and look, CR magically changes their numbers this year.

Same goes with Ford which I don't follow, but I know friend who prefers domestics does and he has commented the Ford has been catching up or exceeding import quality lately and yet CR has been very slow to increase their scores or recommend models though its obvious that criticsm has changed that.

I've had two Subarus and they were both very reliable, as was a very old Honda hatchback I drove for years. I drove an ancient Volvo for several years that never gave me any problems.

When I look for another vehicle (used, of course), I will be sticking to what works best for me--and maybe checking out some others I've seen on this thread!

@chris_d: I have a 2006 Hyundai Sonata and I have had ZERO issues with this car. Its hands down THE BEST car I've ever owned, and I've had a Nissan, a Saturn and a Ford.

Hyundai has a bad rep from its early years, but their reliability has increased by leaps and bounds. Everyone I know with a Hyundai (and I personally know about 10 people with Hyundais) loves the fact that they have no issues with their vehicles.

@chrysrobyn: shhh quiet! At least we still have the Consumerist around and I've visited CR before thanks to the Consumerist so it's not like we're being forced commercials before the movie just yet.

@Echodork: shhh quiet! At least we still have the Consumerist around and I've visited CR before thanks to the Consumerist so it's not like we're being forced commercials before the movie just yet.

@janetcarol: The "New" Jettas had a lot of problems and don't even talk about the EOS convertables (fun to drive but horrible wrt reliability). As a result, a few bad apples really can ruin the bunch.

My TDI Passat is a dream car and actually WENT UP in value for a few months after I purchased it.

My Nissan Altima never broke unless I broke it.

My Ford Explorer was good until about 80k miles when everything slowly started to break and it bled me to death...leading me to buy my TDI.

As far as the Japanese cars being the most reliable, there's a reason. I interviewed at the Toyota West Coast port once. One of the stories I was told by the supervisor was that the quality control guys are graded on how many flaws they find in the finished cars. They were punished if the didn't find ENOUGH flaws. Yes, they were actually punished for not finding problems with the cars.

And yes, Honda, Toyota, and their associated brands float to the top of the reliability list. If you look at the matrix at the link, you'll see that the cars at the top of the list are also the most consistently reliable across product lines. Those in the middle and bottom vary VERY widely in this regard. Especially Ford, which has at least one model that tested VERY well (Fusion) and some that tested VERY poorly and drag Ford down to the bottom third of the list.

The most public example is the car seat fiasco (2006?).

After that, it became clear to me that Consumer Reports was not trustworthy and I should seek my advice elsewhere.

anĀ·ecĀ·dotĀ·al (nk-dtl)
adj.
1. also anĀ·ecĀ·dotĀ·ic (-dtk) or anĀ·ecĀ·dotĀ·iĀ·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: "There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems" C. Claiborne Ray.
(From [www.thefreedictionary.com])

As for antidotal: [letmegooglethatforyou.com]

I have a 10-year old Toyota Tacoma with 270k miles on it and plenty of bruises on the body, and because of Toyota's frame rust warranty extension they're going to buy it back from me for $16,700 and send it to the crusher, just to avoid liability I assume. That's probably $12,000 more than it is worth. No US-make would go to that extent. Obviously, everybody wants to make a good product -- how else can a company stay competitive? Asian makes just seem more responsible and quick to respond to issues, they seem to have more respect for the consumer overall.

The Honda rating is correct, if not high enough. People I know who own Hondas just never have issues with them. A coworker drives a Honda that has 200,000 miles on it. He bought it used and all he's ever had done to it is lubes.

I think your GM statement is misleading. Who cares about recalls -- they're covered. I've had to do plenty of repairs on my GM -- computer, fuel injectors, cylinder head. My father's GM truck had to have to transmission repairs -- fortunately it was under warranty at the time. It had a fuel pressure regulator go after warranty, and now it's developing a couple of other relatively minor problems.

My friend's 2006 Monte has issues with the intermediate steering shaft, just out of warranty (due to mileage). It also had the water pump quit -- out of warranty.

I think when the big dogs from GM, Ford, and Chrysler tell you their quality issues are solved they're lying.

We would never eat the 30% (or so) depreciation in the first two years ever again.

That being said, our Impreza (now 5) is incredibly reliable. Cheap on the inside-we spent it all on the drivetrain-reliable.

Me wants one too.

What's your occupation?

Do you have any vested interest between specific vehicle manufacturer? Are you compensated on the behalf of a specific vehicle manufacturer?

@Jim Topoleski: The proper way to use antidotal in the sentence: "Trading in your Ford for a Subaru would be antidotal to trips to the dealer for repairs."

Every brand will have had individual cars that died like dogs and lasted forever, and there's probably quite a bit of variation in overall performance even between models and years of each of these brands as well. As CR itself will certainly emphasize, since they spend a lot of time reviewing individual models and years. But it's interesting to see that overall there seem to be brand trends, and in light of the bailout it's interesting to see what they are.

The problem here is you have CR reporting reliability without using anything but antidotal data. They are not using industry numbers, they are using numbers reported by subscribers, So if you have a ton of people driving hondas and toyotas because CR suggested them, while you only have a few driving Fords and GMs then your data isnt going to be right.

Couple with what CR uses as their criteria of a reliability issue (a carpet coming up rates the same as a engine issue) and you have bunk reporting.

My Corolla in the winter: Wipers get stuck. Summer WWF in winter got frozen. I fixed the former with the car's heating because I'm too lazy to pull them and I know this car is built like a tank. I fixed the latter by getting out and massaging the lines enough to get the fluid going again and, of course, putting the right winter stuff in.

The Kia? Every single time the wipers get stuck it bends the connecting rods and requires repair. And today the WWF pump blew out AGAIN. And this car hasn't ever seen any fluid other than the winter stuff.

Look, if you want a car to be reliable, consider external factors. Check if the car can self-destruct. If the car can destroy itself just because someone forgets the wipers are stuck to the windshield, your car has a major design issue. I wouldn't be surprised if this extends to other things. I bet the engine explodes if the tailpipe is blocked. :-)

(And there's so many other issues I could list about the Kia it's not even funny. That 5 year warranty got just about every electrical component in the car replaced, and now it's over I'm not looking forward to how many other things will go wrong. *sigh*.)

We both have Santa Fes (my husband is on his second one) and love them.

@Jim Topoleski: If you never brought your GM in for a recall in 12 years then you are either not getting the notices or ignoring them... I don't think there is a single vehicle made by GM that doesn't have at least 1 recall.

I'll just laugh at the overpriced Mercedes and BMW's instead.

Isn't this the exact opposite of what the big 3 are crying?

I know Ford is claiming they have equal or better quality than the Japanese but their perceived quality is not as good.

Guess they're wrong.

The problem is that these figures are based on those who Subscribe (and thus pay) to CR and then bother to report back. So they are not 100% accurate. Add to it that people who buy expensive luxury cars like BMW and Mercedes tend to be more nitpicky over small items than perhaps others drivers. I've been around enough of them to know they are more critical if things don't go 100% as they want.

Or "Found On Road, Dead"

You must give Ford & GM's PR department credit for at least fooling people into thinking their cars are more reliable than they really are. If you think American cars are reliable because yours has worked for years without needing repairs, I like to remember that even a broken watch is correct twice a day. Which is my warped way of saying sometimes you beat the odds.

GMC does stand for Garage Mechanic's Companion.

@Ash78: I made a supposition out of my lack of reading comprehension!

List 1 includes many factors.

So the disparity between 1 and 2 just means that most buyers value more than just reliability. Which warms the cockles of my heart.

Besides, my mom's Camery lasted her 12 years, and her Prius has had no problems. Meanwhile, my PT Cruiser is slowly killing itself in every way possible.

It was still a pain in the ass when the fan clutch seized on Xmas Eve 250 miles from home, though. And when the drive shaft failed on Thanksgiving a few years later...350 miles from home. And when the radiator split..luckily just before taking a long trip.

As soon as the CPO was up, I sold it and bought a Toyota.

Best perceived brands or best perceived RELIABILITY?

List 1 is questionable. It looks more like a list of "best reputation," which is far more than just reliability. Some of the crappiest appliances in my home have never broken.

Too bad they only list high volume manufacturers, but they probably don't want to rate low volume ones due to insufficient data.

I am biased, of course - I love my Civic, and secretly desire an S2000.

I wonder if all the bailout money will entice the American manufacturers to make their cars more reliable?

Nah. They'll just take the money and run.

Oh well. I don't know cars...

I think it should be noted that the data at your links is available only to CR subscribers, though.

Interesting - so the perception people have that toyota and honda have the best reliability is correct - the top 5 is the "actual" table are all toyota or honda brands (scion and lexus=toyota, acura=honda).

I figured at least one American company would be on there and a couple European companies.