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This is a good idea, while your at it, require college kids to at least be able to do calculus. I'm tired of seeing these \"Exercise and Sports Science\" majors flooding all college athletic departments. Make them take real classes like the rest of us!!
/tangent
@TecmoTech: Any reason why people majoring in anything except physical science or economics really need calculus?
@varro: Many great reasons have been posted, and even the post above yours mentions why it is a good idea:
QUOTE: \"I don't know that calculus specifically is a super-useful tool for everyone outside of fields that require it, BUT I think that it's a good thing for everyone to know because it exposes you to a different type of thinking (which is supposedly one of the real purposes of a university education).\"
If engineers have to take so much history and English, the rest of the bunch should have to take some freakin' math. It ain't rocket science, it's Cal I!!
And whoever said statistics should be required as well, +1.
Sorry to disagree, but it's entirely possible (I've done it!) to live one's life and do one's job competently without ever taking calculus. I never went beyond solid geometry and trig in high school and, while I may sometimes feel wistful about not going any further (just as I feel wistful that I only studied one foreign language), I really have no regrets.
I've heard that canard about \"if math majors spoke English as poorly as English majors do math...\" but it's a false comparison. Communication is a skill necessary to succeed in any modern society, and a mastery of language is needed every day in almost any situation. Not so with higher math.
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@ElizabethD: \"Sorry to disagree, but it's entirely possible (I've done it!) to live one's life and do one's job competently without ever taking calculus.\"
It's also possible to do that without ever taking a history class, but it makes you a poorly-educated citizen who, frighteningly enough, still gets to vote.
I realize that the value of the BA has been deflated by credentials INflation in job requirements. But a BA IS supposed to say, \"I have a comprehensive liberal arts education which makes me competent to engage in a wide variety of tasks.\" Maybe the solution is to create more task-oriented college degrees, more AAs, etc.
I don't think catching up to the state-of-the-art mathematics of 1680 is asking too much for a BA. And, frankly, might do a lot to help the current dire state of scientific literacy in the US. \"Math and science are irrelevant to my life\" is part how we got to people pushing creationism in schools.
Moreover, it's very possible to teach math in a more CONCEPTY way that is often easier for language-oriented types to understand without watering it down. It doesn't have to be \"plug and chug\" number crunching; understanding the concepts and their applications is far more important for most people. If you understand the basics of HOW trig and calculus work, as an English major, you can always go look up the formulas if you need them. I know what calculus is and what it does, but if I had to actually DO any, I'd have to get the textbook out and refresh my memory. But the point is, I know what it is, what it does, and when it's needed, so I CAN get the textbook out and work it out if I have to.
@Eyebrows McGee: The problem I have with math courses I have taken to date is that they deal in concept a bit too much. Yeah, it's GREAT that x = y, but how can I apply this? Granted, I'm only a High School Junior, so I bet this will become VERY clear to me in college, seeing as I'm strongly considering majoring in Aerospace Engineering, but RIGHT NOW, it's not clear how I'm going to ever need 95% of the math I have to learn. Though I DID find a use for geometry the other day when I was plotting some points on a map and had to adjust a heading based on leg length of a triangle.
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@Con Seannery hates Facebook and Trebek: I used math when I calculated how large the viewing area on a widescreen TV would be when displaying in standard format. Yay for the 3:4:5 triangle and Pythagorean Theorem!
@Ingram81: And the issue with industrial engineers is?
@Red-headed bookworm: Imaginary Engineers? haha, but in all seriousness many of my friends where I.E.s. In my personal book, I.E. and Comp. Sci are kinda those mysterious degrees. I dont really understand them, dont really know what they do (process improvement or something like that). Especially how Comp Sci and Software Engineering is different.
What I do know is that any of the attractive \"engineering\" girls were ALWAYS I.E.
@Con Seannery hates Facebook and Trebek: \"The problem I have with math courses I have taken to date is that they deal in concept a bit too much.\"
When I meant concept-based, I meant they SHOULD be showing you why the formula/method is connected to the real world. I was really meaning concept vs. number-crunching. My high school math courses suffered from \"here is a formula, plug numbers into it 200 times for homework, now you know how math works!\" Without ever connecting it to reality, and the number-crunching made it excruciating busywork.
I did much better with \"what is this for, how does it work?\" Then I could always figure OUT how to plug in numbers, even if it took me a little longer to work through the plugging-in and number-crunching. There's a value to number-crunching -- you get fast at actually DOING the math -- but for non-math people, I do think that makes it difficult.
I used the Pythagorean theorem recently when getting a piece of glass cut for my breakfront. Before it occurred to me that instead of measuring the two sides and finding the hypotenuse to figure out if the glass would fit through the opening, I probably could have just measured the hypotenuse to begin with. But, hey, Pythagoras was totally right and math got me the same answer as measuring!
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@Eyebrows McGee: I agree with you that knowing some basic math (and yes, calculus I is basic math) is part of being a well-rounded educated person and I think it really should be viewed as a part of being a well-rounded citizen. I don't know that calculus specifically is a super-useful tool for everyone outside of fields that require it, BUT I think that it's a good thing for everyone to know because it exposes you to a different type of thinking (which is supposedly one of the real purposes of a university education).
I actually think that even more so than calculus, everyone should be forced to take some basic statistics in college. Misunderstanding of statistical data is very widespread and actually a big problem with understanding how to interpret lots of data that is used in all kinds of areas including business, finance, and other non-engineering/science areas. In fact, understanding stats is probably pretty important to even comprehend a newspaper or magazine these days.
@johnva: \"I actually think that even more so than calculus, everyone should be forced to take some basic statistics in college. Misunderstanding of statistical data is very widespread and actually a big problem with understanding how to interpret lots of data that is used in all kinds of areas including business, finance, and other non-engineering/science areas.\"
Excellent point.
@TecmoTech: I join in your peevage. I'm a math moron and I made it through college calculus to get my BA, just like everyone else at my school had to.
I have a friend who's upset because she can't find a BA program that will let her graduate WITHOUT DOING ALGEBRA. That just upsets me.
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@Eyebrows McGee: It upset me, when I was in college, that the engineering students would whine that they had to take any humanities classes at all, and near-rioted at the suggestion that (like everybody else) they be required to have proficiency in a foreign language. Never mind that the liberal-arts scholars had to take a certain number of science and math classes; engineers wanted nothing to do with all that soppy non-math-non-engineering nonsense.
In other words, I'll believe the braying about a Well Rounded Education right about when I hear engineering students demand everybody have a good grasp of world history and possibly Latin.
@mythago: Since you dont have a math backgrond Im sure Ill have to explain this to you later:
Math > Humanities
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@Ingram81: Your apparent inability to spell correctly or use apostrophes suggests that your education, too, has lacked a certain something. As does the OP's inability to make the very basic distinction between \"your\" and \"you're\".
How about we all agree that the best education is a well-rounded education?
@Princess Leela: I care not for your apostrophes and my spelling is quite substantial for the blog-sphere. For example I'll spell Princess Leela correctly....\"B.I.T.C.H.\", \"Princess Leela\" :-)
My education involves a B.S. in Computer Engineering, a minor in Advanced Math, and a M.S. in Electrical Engineering. So if I'm lacking anything in my education it was a lack of learning to color with crayons in college also known as liberal arts.
@Ingram81: Impressively spelled and punctuated response. Now why can't you do that all the time? Particularly when you're berating other people for not having the same exact education as you?
Also, calling someone a bitch around here is usually grounds for disemvowelment, but I guess the new regime is going to let such things slide ... ?
@Princess Leela: I am not berating anyone. I am simply stating the fact that math and science skills are much more critical then the ability to analyze whatever the symoblic meaning behind the character of Heathcliff in Wuthering Heights happened to be. I am not stating that basic skills such as literacy and reading comprehension are not important. Quite to the contrary if one is unable to understand and comprehend what they are reading, then what was the point?
My fiance (no Im not going to worry about the punctuation on that word) teaches at one of the local universities (Engl 101) and Ive had both the privledge and completely horror of reading some of her students work. One of her female students wrote a story about wanting to have an tryst with her, and my future wife, and thats just starting the tip of the iceberg of fail for these papers. When I was teaching at the university had one of my engineering students ever submitted some equivalent quality of work they would have been shamed out of the department. Apparently Im not a \"free thinker\".
My point in all of this is that in this country, the education system has done the future generations a great disservice by placing the greater importance on ones total GPA rather than on what classes the GPA was based on. To say that Art 101 and Cal 101 are of the same level of difficulty would be saying taking a crap and building a functioning space shuttle are on the same level.
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I almost didn't graduate because I'm LD in math...I can't even do division. I still had to take the basic course. I passed with a C minus. I think it was because the teacher felt sorry for me.
If I could have gotten out of doing it, I would have. The only thing the school would give me was extra time to do the physics math on my science test, and even with the formulas in front of me (the teacher allowed everyone a cheat sheet), I still got every question wrong. I don't even know what calculus IS.
It sucks because there are jobs I can never do.
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@Eyebrows McGee: I feel for people that have a hard time with math (mostly because I'm a moron when it comes to English), but I think your friend just broke my brain.
There's even an easy trick to getting through it! Just stick with someone that's good at math and sucks at another subject. Then save them by explaining \"Hills Like White Elephants\" is actually about abortion, and they will be eternally loyal in your pursuit of surviving math!
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@Pink Puppet: networking at it's finest & one of the main reasons for going to college in the 1st place :)
@Eyebrows McGee: I was just the opposite - I was incredibly PEEVED at my \"statistics for the social sciences\" course. Not math. By ANY stretch of the imagination. I truly felt like I barely worked for my B.A. \"But you don't use that sort of thing in the field of Psychology\" they'd say.... I call BS on that!
Basically, it scares me that I went to a pretty good school and did fine by not doing much. How many other people are getting degrees they didn't even have to work for? What's the point?
/rant
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@TecmoTech: WTF does your average college grad need calculus for? Engineers and math majors may have to one day write a memo (hence, you take English classes) -- but how many Liberal Arts folks are ever finding a local maximum or rate of change of a function?
Besides, why stop at calc? Make them slog through some topology, I say.
@PunditGuy: I'll have to write memos then, that's great, not analyze the symbolism of sexual themes in a short story about the Vietnam War!
/engineering major currently tearing her hair out over aforementioned short story
@Pink Puppet: THANK YOU! I don't need to know the nuances of symbolism that likely isn't in the story I got this one assignment fits all assignment for. I do, however, think we need mandate that students must have more than the loose grasp of the English language most people today seem to have. I be think that we need more better education, yo.
@Pink Puppet: Wait. Engineering major & female? Does not compute. You must be one of those industrial engineers.
You're right, why does anybody need anything? I certainly am not using 90% of the classes I was forced to take in college.
History? Who needs it? English? I learned how to write in kindergarten. Science? What do I need that for, I have the Discovery channel!
Yeah, who cares about having well rounded students. Oh yeah, It doesn't take four+ semesters to learn how to write a memo.
Geeze, the original thread was about raising standards. I'd like to see standards raised in college too.
@TecmoTech: That kind of education is available at a number of schools. The point of a college degree these days is to 1) delay your entry into the job market for a few years; and 2) prepare you for corporate dronedom in your choice of cubicle. (Here's an accounting one, here's a marketing one...)
Yeah, that's a shame -- and yes, it would be swell if we quested for well-roundedness instead. But if that's your goal, what is it about calc that makes someone well-rounded and not a thorough grounding in Victorian literature? Or basic physiology? Copyright law?
@TecmoTech: I think what you're advocating is a return to the classic liberal arts educational ideal, which has sadly disappeared in recent years. I completely agree with you. I was required to take calculus as a history major-and I took the full version, not the wimpy \"calc for business/social science majors.\" I actually loved it and even though I don't use it much today, I appreciated learning how to think in a different way.
@the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene: Finally! Somebody who finally realizes that mathematics is much richer than \"2+2\" and \"stuff I'll never need to know.\"
Now that I got that out...back to Differential Equations and Logic Design homework at 1:30 AM
@TecmoTech: Some people, like my fiance, just cannot comprehend anything harder than Algebra-I should know I tried to help him while we were in college. He isn't stupid and is great working with tweens and teenagers but math isn't his forte (and I balance the checkbook). He is however a great history teacher.
/computer science
@CRNewsom: Wait business majors need to know something other than binge drinking and fraternities?
/Engineer
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@Ingram81: Hey now, as a Business / Comp Sci major (so I guess I got the best of both worlds) I found it was the education majors who were the drunken orgy types.
That's why I laugh whenever a teacher complains of getting paid too little. ;)
@CRNewsom:
That is not news to me, I would enforce real calculus. At minimum. If engineers have to take four+ english classes, the rest can at least take Cal 1.
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@TecmoTech: Well, in engineering school, I only had to take 3 writing classes. I wouldn't mind them so much if they were technical writing classes. Nothing beats sitting through an english lecture including a 15 minute discussion on the proper way to use block quotes, followed by my engineering senior project where the course advisor answered someone's question with the statement \"I cannot think of a single instance where it would be correct to use a direct quote from the literature.\" And he was right; briefly mention what you care about, and put in the reference.
Also, if you really want to be fair, if engineers have to take 4 semesters of writing, shouldn't everyone take 4 semesters of math *starting* with calc 1? That should take them all the way through DiffEq, and vastly improve the engineering students' place on the curve.
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@TecmoTech: Engineering major who successfully got out of my English req with my AP score. Now if I could have skipped my rhetoric req I would have been a happy camper.
@TecmoTech: You have any ideas what would happen to the number of graduating seniors from college if they all had to take Cal 1? A college degree might actually go back to meaning something.
@TecmoTech: Since we're on the same page here, I think we have a plan.
I do miss tutoring the rich \"calc for business\" students. I am glad I got to them before they took economics, or they may have figured out I was gouging them terribly.
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Excellent Idea, I wish my school in NY State would have done that when I was done with High School in 1998.
@gqcarrick: Agreed, it's almost as if credit companies know teenagers don't know the first thing about anything. So requiring this course is a good thing for these kids, even if they don't believe it.
@gqcarrick: I went to the Bronx H.S. of Science and I took so many geeky courses relating to science and advanced mathematics. I sure wish the school had taught us some \"real world\" economic financial strategies. Would have saved me from filing for bankruptcy back in the early 90's.
@gqcarrick:
Most students would benefit from such a requirement. Since a majority of High School graduates have to deal with money and the banking system in one form or another, it only seems logical that they receive rudimentary education in how the system works.
@gqcarrick: I did this as part of home economics (in upstate NY). It didn't help much.