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Travelocity wants their gnome back.
Someone rolled a critical failure.
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Someone isnt being a very good Paladin
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Hasbro == Chaotic Evil
When I go to the forums linked and follow the administraters instructions, all the links work fine for me. Brings up the cancellation forms quite easily.
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Semi-ironically, Chris posted to links to Gleemax, a service that Hasbro is giving up on because nobody wanted it, either.
For those of you who don't play D&D...
Why are you reading this thread?
Just kidding. I meant to say, for those of you who don't play D&D, the \"annual membership\" is for \"Dungeons & Dragons Insider,\" (DDI) part of a 3-pronged intitative to get D&D players using Hasbro-operated online services:
First, they tried creating a social network (Gleemax) that was substandard by any definition of social network. That's already shut down.
Second, they took two print magazines (Dragon and Dungeon) online-only and merged them into DDI.
Third, they announced an online \"virtual tabletop\" for networked D&D-playing. That doesn't work yet.
So basically, this article is people complaining that Hasbro won't let them cancel their subscriptions to 2 online magazines.
Yep, that's Hasbro's big new revenue model: Online magazines for a hobby dominated by teenage boys.
When all this was announced at Gen Con last year, I told another player \"I look forward to reading the Wall Street Journal on 'How Hasbro Killed Dungeons & Dragons\" (which seemed to visibly started the Hasbro employee at the table with us).
Anyway, this is exactly the kind of runaround one should expect from Hasbro. They spent two years claiming they weren't working on a Fourth Edition of the D&D rules, then announced they had been working on a the major game show, instantly killing the sales of third-party products designed to be compatible with the Third Edition. In one swoop, they screwed with their customers and their semi-competitors.
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@Michael Bauser: Come on, Hasbro is merely devaluing D&D so that some great small company can buy it. (Think early Wizards of the Coast.)
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@Michael Bauser: The set of online tools and other benefits that were supposed to come with D&D Insider has an even more robust history, and I'm sure you're aware of that. But for anyone else curious....
The set of tools that was supposed to be available at the time 4th Edition launched included a character builder, character visualizer, dungeon builder, online game table and online magazines. Of all these utilities, only one was actually ready at launch: the magazines, and that's only because they were already doing it. This many months later, and only the character builder has been released, which makes Hasbro's runaround especially nefarious, because people have every reason to cancel their account, given this track record.
@17-A: Y'know if these things were essential to playing the game, then yeah I'd be pissed. But they're not, and I've been running 4e games with two groups since it came out, and we've been having fun. If anything maybe it's a good thing their online play client isn't up, and that's 'cause people have to play with real people, not online like some people insinuate 4e has made D&D into.
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@Michael Bauser: There is an easy way for these users to cancel their subscriptions: cancel the charge and get a new card. If Hasbro isn't delivering services as promised, then the CC companies will cooperate.
@lincolnparadox: But they never really promised it. More than that for the first 5 months the service was free. Granted the only thing available were the two magazines, but getting all that supplemental stuff for free was great. And those issues are still available for free. After the first major feature came out in November, then they started charging subscription fees. So it's not like thousands of players paid for this subscription, but didn't get what they should have. WotC explicitly stated certain things aren't ready yet, yes they should have been, no we're not gonna make you pay for something that isn't ready.
More than that, once other really big features come out the subscription price goes up, but those of us who already got a subscription will get everything despite the fact the price we paid only really covered what we have now. So even if those newer things don't come out we only really paid for what amounts to two magazine subscriptions and some character builder.
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Yeah but if you decide the service isn't worth the money after trying it out, they should let you cancel.
I don't think the issue is whether or not the service is worthwhile, but rather they won't let you stop paying for it.
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I was a D&D player until the people became to weird. I mean weird as anti-social and emotional problems.
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@BLANDspace: My experience agrees with yours. I'm glad 17-A's experience was better, but everyone I knew who was sane and had a real life quit gaming years - um...decades - ago, and all for the same reason. Those that continued gaming became pretty darn scary over the years. I miss DMing, but I don't miss the informal psychological- and life-counseling sessions that arose outside of the game. I cared that these young men and women were troubled (and used the game as an escape or substitute for a real life), but after a while the interpersonal drama it was creating in my own real life was just too much, so I quit gaming. When WoW came out, I thought about participating, but the first few players I met were cut from the same odd cloth, so I just didn't. Same with Second Life. So it's not just tabletop games that are magnets for the disaffected, it's RPG in general. Sad.
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@BLANDspace: I would really like to hear about a time when D&D players were NOT weird. I mean, seriously. Was there some brief flash of normalcy that struck the hobby in 1998 and I wasn't paying attention, or what?
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@mythago: For those not paying attention, the D&D crowd of the 1970s/1980s were often/usually the same people that were into computers. These are the sorts of people who took imagination into business and into entertainment. Many of the more popular entertainments and industries wouldn't exist without such people.
@BLANDspace: Sorry if your group turned out that way, but it's never been the case for as long as I've been playing tabletop RPGs. Contrary to the myth, D&D isn't a refuge for social outcasts... nor will you become one if you play.
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Somebody roll the 20-sided die!
Oooooh....Hasbro casts \"Spell of Idiotic Mismanagement\" and takes 100 hit points.
Do teenaged boys still play Dungeons and Dragons, because it is something that I have only heard about in reference to past decades. I have met many older adults who played it when they were younger, but I have yet to meet anyone who played as a teenager during my adolescence.
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I'm female and I used to play D&D - I don't have time now (19 and in college) and there's no one around to play...
I stick to Baldur's Gate now for my D&D fix.
I just got back from a game this evening, actually, and I'm 37. :)
THe business with the online business for D&D is idiotic. I can't even believe the incompetency involved. They have no proven track record with any electronic product, and building something like this is not a novice activity. Just crazy.
Heeey, teenage girls (*cough* me *cough*) play it too!
And we're not anti-social by any definition! Haha.
But yeah, Hasbro/WoTC started this mess when they decided they cared more about the $$ they could make from the game than they did about the fan base behind it. They started overcharging for everything, making everything more dependent on rule books you didn't have yet (and in the process killing the imagination element that makes the game so special to begin with), comes up with ridiculous schemes for money making (like Gleemax and D&DI), adds an MMORPG (with graphics) version of the game (again, destroying the imagination element that was the reason it's still around)... I could go on. But I've made my point. They ruined the latest (4th edition) version of D&D with dependency on multiple (non-core) rule books, all of which are way overpriced, and removed what we used to consider classes and elements that are at the heart of the game. Our group has boycotted D&D 4e (and possibly future editions) until this mess is fixed, if it ever will be before the D&D department closes its doors forever...
@jennieblue22: Uh, it's a new edition. And I don't see how there's a dependency on supplements. If anything 3rd ed. had that problem, but so far there's no real advantage to be gained by taking anything over something in the core books.
@jennieblue22: The best thing for the game would be if WOTC/Hasbro dumped it and sold it. Many smaller RPGs survived cancellation by being scooped up by smaller companies.
Plus, it's not like you really need new products to play this game. Some people out there are still using the rules from 1974.
Ebay and second-hand bookstores are your friend.
@lincolnparadox: I'm one of those who uses the 1974 rules, after spending scads of time using the 1st Edition AD&D rule set. As for Hasbro, signs of the current troubles began all the way back in 1999. Prior to the introduction of d20 Fantasy (aka 3d Edition) gamers were given surveys to fill out, explaining what they felt the game needed or didn't need. Hasbro ignored those surveys and ended up alienating a substantial portion of the Dungeons & Dragons fanbase in the process.
There are options though for those who don't want the current bastardization of the Dungeons & Dragons game rules and/or are otherwise fed up with Hasbro. For those who liked the 3d Edition rules, check out Paizo's Pathfinder RPG at http://paizo.com/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG . For those wanting that 1st Edition feel while playing with modern rules, check out http://www.trolllord.com .
@ShrilekhaZeiram: For those that want some balanced 3.5 rules (no wizard nerfs, no monster changes, just some melee upscaling), look up Frank and K.
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In order to cancel your account, you must answer me these questions three....
I'm confused. D&D Insider has been around for what, 6 months? Why do people think they should be able to cancel their annual subscription half-way through?
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@mbuna: Because part of the annual subscription was supposed to include access to a program (the online tabletop) that isn't even available yet, but that Hasbro had no problem lying about and saying it would be available from the start.
@mbuna: The same reason people stop watching shows halfway through the season, or stop reading a book series, or not buy a game's sequel, etc. First impressions mean a lot, if the first 6 issues are a fair representation of the future issues, you should have the right to save your money if you don't want to buy more of them.
This should be easy make some macros and start the spam till nonone can talk in a city. if you want say the N word the F word well at least in wow its a great way to quit and get banned.
I still play D&D and I'm a 26 year old female. Tonight is actually D&D night (though, I can't go 'cause I'm not feeling well).
I didn't start until 4E so I don't really know what it was like beforehand, but it does seem like Hasbro has dropped the ball here. I have much love for WOTC, though, thanks to Magic, The Gathering.
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I don't the fixation with rules and the editions.
I used to play D&D in the '80s (high school and college), back when it was AD&D. I understand the allure of more classes, but once they added the Barbarian and Cavalier that was enough for me...
Make your own rules, your own dungeons and be done with. This migration to the 4th edition Rule Set really just preempts table-top playing anyways. Yeh, if I want my character to be seamless on the computer, I'll play computer-based D&D.
And also, anyone who does play or ever did play D&D is a social misfit by definition of the general populace. Ask yourself, big business is decided over golf not D&D. Maybe we'd all be in a better place if our CEOs did play D&D and did also schooze that way!
But misfits we are, otherwise everyone would be playing.
@radiochief: What? No. 4th edition is a simplification to be sure, but in a good way. You need a lot of the changes put forth from 2nd to third to make the game more interesting (adding Barbarian was bad? And Cavalier was not a class in 3e, unless that was in some expansion book). Likewise, the shift from 3rd to 4th got rid of a lot of the extraneous bullcrap, and made the game a lot easier/more fun to play.
As a an avid D&D player, a Hasbro stockholder, a producer on several D&D movies, and a past writer for D&D product, I find it interesting that someone would claim that business doesn't happen over D&D games. I was present when Transformers was licensed into a movie that did over a billion dollars in worldwide business - and that happened at a D&D game. I was also present when the Dragonlance novel series was commisisoned for an animated Paramount film - and that happened at a D&D game. I also watched the Sci-Fi channel commission the Battlestar Galctica Mini-Series at a D&D game.
There are several regular games of Dungeons & Dragons in hollywood that involve high powered agents, actors, and producers at which business is done.
Additionally, to claim that the primary audience for D&D is teenagers is incorrect. The average D&D player is now over 24 (studies show that teenagers play trading card games and then graduate to video games) and wants to spend more on his (statistcally) hobby - which is the primary reason the cost of the core books went up. Ironically the excuse given in that meeting was that people want to spend more on their hobbies and that D&D was cheap comapred to golf.
@johnfrank: Dude, please don't blame the Transformers movie on D&D. You're going to make people hate D&D.
The price of the books went up because game rs wanted to spend more money? That might be the craziest thing I've ever read on Consumerist. Citation, please.
I taught myself to play the game in High School under 2nd ed. rules, and though I never was able to get much of a group together, I still love the sense of community it brought me. I was very lonely growing up, and moved too often to have any constant friends. D&D gave me a sense of belonging and acceptance that I needed to feel like I was worth something, and I have remained faithful to Gary's game all these years. I currently play EverQuest 2,
but every now and then I dust off my Screen, polish my Dice, and raise a tankard to the best game of them all.
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Roll to save vs. scam.
My friends and I play table-top rpgs on the weekends, and we've pretty much given up on D&D, due to the constantly release of new versions (which you have to buy all new books for) seeming to have shorter and shorter periods in-between release dates.
I played AD&D back in the 80's. We got out of it just about the time that the 2nd edition rules came out. Much like Squad Leader--played Avalon Hill games, too--the more the revise and add rules, the worse things become.
D&D Online? Isn't the whole point getting three pizzas on sale, a bunch of Mountain Dew, five of your geeky friends and staying up for 2 days to finish the adventure? It isn't D&D if it doesn't take place in a basement den with wood paneling!
I miss it, and those times.
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I'm 36 and still play tabletop roleplaying games. Not sure about your own experiences, but there are socially malformed weirdos in just about any kind of organized hobby. Look at football nuts, for instance. There's a guy down the street from me who painted his house in his team's colors. The only reason that more people don't think that he's a raving lunatic is that most people in my area like football and so it's somewhat normalized. RPGs are a niche hobby, and thus exposed to more ridicule.
I'm a public relations guy and the other players in my group include bank VPs, federal law enforcement agents, government archivists and more. They're normal folks, and not crippled emotionally or socially in any sort of way...or at least no more than most people.
Back to the topic at hand, this 4th edition of D&D has major problems, and the online support (or lack of) is only one small part of it. I suspect that this may be the last official edition of D&D we'll see. At least from Hasbro, anyway. I recommend that fans either stick with the older versions, check into some of the free retro versions online like \"Swords & Wizardry\" or \"Labyrinth Lord\" or just migrate to another game system altogether. My disaffection with D&D 4th ed got me to pick up GURPS, and we've loved it.
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I started playing D&D in 1974 with the little pamphlets in the white box you mail-ordered from TSR in Lake Geneva. We liked first edition AD&D, with the fancy hardcovers. When second edition came out, and your 20th level Archmage got his lightning bolts limited to 10 dice, we rejected it.
Everyone's grown old in our group, with kids, and in one case, a grand-kid on the way. We're still using those old first edition books, tattered and glued back together on the spines.
For newbies, they borrow books, buy 'em on Ebay, or there's pirated pdfs...
For character sheets, I thought everybody had graduated to Word or Excel?
Wizards is a complete disaster internally. I personally know people that worked there and heard, on a regular basis, what a disaster it was. Not only was there a mass exit by most of their talent, but that was recently followed up by a layoff.
Hasbro treats WotC as a stepchild thats kept in the closet and its really ran as 2 seperate companies. There is no way, in its current state, that Wizards will ever produce anything of quality and are more likely doing everything they can to delay the inevitable.
i was at GenCon 2 years ago when they announced D&D 4th Ed. i was pissed. i questioned the mindless idiots around me as to why they were clapping, because they were happy about 4th ed. or because they were expected to clap. i quickly told them, i tried to be loud about it, how hasbro was goning to do this to us everytime D&D merchandise sales hit a certain low, and how hasbro happily let us buy new stuff for 2 days at the Con knowing that it would soon be obsolete. i was happy when they had a question-and-answer session. i quickly asked if they were goin to put out a new edition everytime sales hit certain lows and if the new addition would be at all compatible with 3.5ed. the guy ignored my first question but did say that it would not be at all compatible with 3.5ed. there are still people who play original D&D, AD&D, 3rd ed. 3.5ed. its a chioce and new material is always available for all editions as other companies, and the internet, makes it readily available. to the ignorant-by-choice people who stereotype D&D players, try to relax a bit, open your mind, and maybe you will stop being such a loser. 4th ed. had dumbed down D&D alot, making it easier for more people to play, people with less imagination for example. but as always D&D players come from all walks of life, all nationalities, and knows no boundries. for example, the group i play in has 5 guys, one gal, a doctor, an electrician, a parks dept. employee, collections supervisor, a guy who hardly ever keeps any job for more than a week(when he actually has a job,) and a computer builder/repairman. there will always be people who are not working on their self-image problems and need to put others down to make themselves feel better, and D&D players have long been made fun of by those people. the people i game with know we're made fun off, we know what kind of people do it, and we're ok with that.
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There are too many threads to respond to so I'm just posting a general response:
The issue isn't what's available, how Wizards of the Coast (division of Hasbro) has ruined D&D, or how terrible their implementation of the online is or was.
The issue is that people are having difficulty canceling their subscriptions, which is a serious problem, since my gaming group had decided to subscribe for 1 month every 4 months just to download the two online magazines. I would like to know that I could get my 1 month subscription and then not have it automatically renew despite my efforts to cancel.
FYI to those of you saying the current system doesn't allow you to be imaginative, you need to pull your heads out of the sand. My group has happily changed the rules to our liking and invented what we needed when necessary. What you're saying is you're too lazy to use your imaginations to create what you need, and are instead being fully dependent on the game company to do everything for you. It's also been stated more times than I can count that 4th edition can be played with the core books and nothing more without losing any of the play appeal.
@BLANDspace: Weird, as most the gamers I know are very social and fairly normal. OK, so some of them have a tendency to talk to other players about whats going on in the game, but they are very open minded, normally intelligent & imaginative. I can't tell them apart from the rest of humanity... well, unless they are wearing a convention t-shirt.
But then the ones I know don't live in their parent's basment. They have also had romatic relationships. Some are married and have kids, even.
To clarify, people are pissed that they can't turn off automatic billing. Meaning, if someone signed up for $6/mo recurring, they can't cancel.
People who paid for a full year aren't asking for a refund. (Well, maybe they are but that's not what those threads are about.)
Hey you guys, thanks for bringing this up. Bill Slavicsek just addressed this in his Digital Insider column http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4news/20090114 , and says. “We’re aware of the issues surrounding the management of your personal D&D Insider accounts, and we’re sorry about any inconveniences you may be experiencing. In our continued efforts to improve all aspects of D&D Insider, we are taking steps to make it easier for you to manage your D&DI account. This includes improving your ability to more effectively manage the auto-renew function. More detailed instructions will be available soon. These instructions will either appear in this column or as a news item as soon as they are available. Maybe both. And we’re continuing to work on making the user interface more friendly and easier to navigate. More on all of this shortly.”
If you are trying to stop your auto renewal please follow this process http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1435 to insure that it is done correctly. If you have any trouble with this please do not hesitate to call customer service at 1-800-324-6496 Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
So please stay tuned for updates on how we’re improving your account management options.
- Chuck
I wanted to drop-in and let you guys know that we have a new process for requests to stop auto-renewal with D&D Insider. Simply fill out a web form on your My Accounts page (https://accounts.gleemax.com/) and we’ll send you a cancellation confirmation. For a more detailed walk through, click here (http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1435). As always, if you have problems with this process, feel free to contact us at 1-800-324-6496 between the hours of 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Monday-Friday.
- Chuck
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YOU SHALL NOT PASS!!!!...our cancellation verification system.