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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

January 5, 2009 3:27 PM

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See, this is why I pity the poor people who bought into the $400,000 homes. Not only were they grossly overpriced, they were grossly overpriced pieces of crap.

Having seen how all these \"townhomes\" around me were constructed (out of fiberboard on the top floors and half blocks - not even whole cinderblocking - on the bottom, with minimal insulation and single pane windows - IN FLORIDA!) I'd never have handed over the $200k+ they were asking.

Now they're down in the $120's and even that is risking it, since your power bill will be horrendous due to lack of insulation in the summer.

5 replies

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January 5, 2009 6:44 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: I WISH I could buy a nice $400,000 home. That's still on the low end of the scale where I live.

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January 6, 2009 1:51 AM

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@sprocket79: No kidding. 500k+ for something decent and in a good neighborhood here.

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January 6, 2009 8:58 PM

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@slopirate: It's about $200-300k for a nice neighborhood and a pretty good sized nice house on a golf course that used to host a PGA tournament until a few years ago...the sponsor was dying to move it to a course in the city.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

January 5, 2009 7:50 PM

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@sprocket79: Jeebus H. Christ. I hope you make a crap load of money! I can't even forsee making enough to finance something like that.

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Necroposting_SteveDave

January 5, 2009 3:33 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: My Dad's GF's house is made entirely of cinder blocks. Except for the headache we went through installing an AC through it, it's a damn fine house.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

January 5, 2009 3:47 PM

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@Necroposting_SteveDave: The house I grew up with was complete block construction too.

Cinderblock is a great building material if properly used, and a great insulator. Awesome for hurricanes.
Problem with the houses I'm talking about is they didn't use \"real\" cinderblocks, they used half blocks, which are only about 4\" thick instead of the full 8\". Which means they're cheaper, but less durable and less insulating.

In Florida, that's just asking for it.

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Necroposting_SteveDave

January 5, 2009 4:25 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: I'm talking the full two huge hole Cinder Bloxs. I used those for building the ring around my fire pit as I drove some rebar into the ground, then added stone dust to the holes, so they aren't going anywhere.

Of course, when I build my new house, it's going to be a nice two story steel house. Something freeing about not having to have load bearing walls.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

January 5, 2009 4:59 PM

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@Necroposting_SteveDave: There was a guy here in Central Florida who had the most AWESOME idea. He was building houses out of blocks of aerated concrete - hurricane proof, tornado proof (if you had the right roof on top), fire proof. And totally insulated and energy efficient, too.

His supplier bailed on him though and he was a horrid businessman to begin with (he spent all his profits ASAP, instead of reinvesting in the business) so it ultimately failed. But I wanted one of his houses so bad.

A friend of mine has steel walls layered inside 4\" thick foam, so their walls are about 12\" thick. I've also seen a house in california constructed with hay bales. Both super energy efficient.

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January 5, 2009 7:04 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: When we built our barn, we had to install Hurricane Clips to hold the joists to the frame.

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Blitzgal

January 5, 2009 3:30 PM

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Can we please work on rebuilding the manufacturing sector here in the States?

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Anonymous

January 10, 2009 4:43 AM

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I'm not sure it matters where the plant is. There is a plant \"National\" down the road in Gibsonton which uses the waste from TECO's Big Bend plants scrubbers to make dry wall.

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Righteous

January 6, 2009 7:03 AM

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Amen! I so damn sick and tired of all this low quality crap flowing into our country and our lives. It's driven by materialistic consumer greed and corporations that could care less what they sell as long as they maximize profit margin. I understand they are in business to make a profit, but at the expense of their consumers' well being...REALLY??? What happens where there are no consumers because people either know better than to buy their dangerous, cheap CRAP, or they've poisoned or killed them all off due to toxic products? This is one instance, of many, where less is more.

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January 5, 2009 3:30 PM

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Really....with all the recalls and warning issued because of Chinese products, why do we still use them for manufacturing. I wonder if it would not be prudent to fine U.S. companies who make substandard and hazardous materials such as this, or who skip safety checks at the very least.

I am not much for government oversite for private companies but this is getting ridiculous.

3 replies

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January 5, 2009 3:44 PM

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People will continue to purchase cheap chinese junk because its cheap. When most people shop, they assume that all products are equal and scan for cheapest price.

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Necroposting_SteveDave

January 5, 2009 3:34 PM

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@Shark1998: This happened before the poison train came to light.

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January 5, 2009 3:45 PM

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@Shark1998: I suspect that the sheer volume of Chinese imports means that the percentage of problem imports is actually smaller than, say, the percentage of recalled US beef.

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Rectilinear Propagation

January 5, 2009 3:40 PM

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I wanted to facepalm reading this but my glasses get in the way.

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hhole

January 5, 2009 4:05 PM

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@Rectilinear Propagation:

Glasses must have been made in China.

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January 5, 2009 3:48 PM

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This is a good sign, China is finally running low on lead!

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January 5, 2009 3:53 PM

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When you can import heavy toilets from China and still make more profit over making and shipping them locally, you know you have a problem.

My current house (75 years old in a nice neighborhood) is cinder block with cork insulation. Tight as a drum, so I recommend it, however I also recommend UFFI insulation...

4 replies

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January 5, 2009 6:49 PM

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@mariospants: I don't think I'll ever buy new construction unless I'm there to watch them put it up. My current house was built in '64 by an architect as his own personal residence. He lived there for 10 years, then moved on. Heating and cooling costs are half of what they were in the townhouse we lived in before that for 2x the space. It's still not very big, but no expense was spared on the construction. I will be very sad when I finally have to sell it and buy bigger.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

January 5, 2009 7:52 PM

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@heltoupee: That's not always a guarantee. My parent's circa-80's house was the \"spec\" house for the 2nd half of the subdivision - which meant it was the contractor's house and the model open for everyone and had to be finished first.

We've discovered they re-used the sliding glass doors from a previous building, the insulation is lacking in the roof across almost half the house, the plugs sink into the wall when you plug something in - the fuse box is ancient (as in not even being able to handle a reasonable load without exploding regularly).

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January 5, 2009 5:19 PM

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@mariospants: A large part of the issue is that the local stuff is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY overpriced. So for instance you can get a really nice looking hardwood bookcase built for around $1,000 or you can go buy an imitation one for about $200. The difference is amazing but the fact is the custom one really only costs about $300. The builder is forced to charge much more because they have to build them one at a time and they sell very low volumes.

So even if you DON'T want cheap Chinese crap you have to pay a hell of a lot more, which few can afford to do.

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Necroposting_SteveDave

January 5, 2009 4:26 PM

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@mariospants: Wow, they must have really been drinkers back then.

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January 5, 2009 3:54 PM

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\"I am not much for government oversite for private companies but this is getting ridiculous.\"

History has repeatedly shown that business cannot be trusted to regulate itself, any more than a city can regulate its citizenry without police. A disinterested party in necessary in all regulation - and there are no such persons in business. Those running a business want as much profit as possible - as a matter of fact, in the US, it is law that a business must generate as much profit for the shareholders as possible.

No system can survive long without a governing force in place to prevent it from running out of control.

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ChibaCityCowboy

January 6, 2009 3:13 PM

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@Urgleglurk: Only problem is as you said \"the citizens cannot be trusted to regulate themselves\" and the people who run the govt. are citizens.

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Justifan

January 5, 2009 4:57 PM

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it can, when it is a company in THIS country. you know why? we have rabid lawyers...like it or not, that keeps companies on their toes for the most part.

chinese companies? sue a chinese company...good luck, it'll probably disappear and reappear under a different name protected by corrupt government officials.

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Canino

January 5, 2009 4:13 PM

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@Urgleglurk: A disinterested party in necessary in all regulation - and there are no such persons in business.

The \"disinterested party\" in business is the free market.

any more than a city can regulate its citizenry without police

I think you're holding your copy of the Constitution upside down. Turn it over and read it again.

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kc2idf

January 5, 2009 4:19 PM

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@Canino: The \"disinterested party\" in business is the free market.

Glad that's working so well.

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Canino

January 5, 2009 4:27 PM

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@kc2idf: Glad that's working so well.

We know it works because you see a story like this every once in a while, not 100 a day. No system is perfect.

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Anonymous

January 5, 2009 4:05 PM

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@Urgleglurk: Yes, there needs to be oversight, but why does it have to come from the government? How watches them and keeps them from going out of control while they watch the businesses. What keeps that system surviving? It seems consumer organizations are better geared to watch over corporations and report problems and then let the consumer make an informed choice. They are less susceptible to corruption and more efficient in their results. UL listing is completely voluntary, but it is well regulated and at least here, hard to find consumer electrical devices not UL listed.

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opsomath

January 5, 2009 4:11 PM

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I would bet a lot of money that the material also has insanely high heavy metal levels, in particular mercury. Why? Because that's one of the things that scrubbers are supposed to remove from coal exhaust.

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Segador

January 5, 2009 4:12 PM

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I'm impressed that they didn't just make the insulation out of melamine.

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January 5, 2009 4:18 PM

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Yay, we've had a drought of chinese poison train entries.

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January 5, 2009 4:30 PM

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At this rate, won't the Chinese kill themselves off pretty quickly using all these products themselves?

Another reason to think about buying used. Used=previously beta tested on someone else.

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January 5, 2009 9:38 PM

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@dlng_wnd: Wht's fw mlln t f 2+ Blln Chnmn?

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RecordStoreToughGuy_starcommandseries.com

January 5, 2009 8:21 PM

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@Shark1998: Well, they're still people. And Chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature, dude. It's Asian.

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January 5, 2009 6:52 PM

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@dialing_wand: First lead, and now Sulfuric Acid. We're getting really close to being able to repurpose this stuff into car batteries :)

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January 5, 2009 4:56 PM

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@dialing_wand: Possibly they are already poisoning their kids with tainted milk!

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sleze69

January 5, 2009 4:37 PM

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What are they complaining about? This is the bleeding edge of electric conservation. Those sulfuric acid walls can be converted into batteries for energy storage.

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rpm773

January 5, 2009 4:49 PM

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The Chinamen are not the issue!

Perhaps in 15 - 20 years the home-building market will rebound, if only to replace ones that have been built in the last 10 years that will have disintegrated into mush by then.

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Anonymous

January 5, 2009 4:53 PM

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This is interesting considering I live 5 miles from a coal plant and a gypsum plant was just built next door to it. And it's main purpose is to make drywall from the waste from the scrubbers. That is what they do. And that is right here in the US of A.

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January 5, 2009 4:55 PM

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Kinda glad I bought my 1920s house in Tampa now. With all it's quirks and some of the old termite damage I've had to replace my studs are petrified cypress and my house will probably stand another 80+ years with no effort at all.

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FatLynn

January 5, 2009 5:21 PM

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This is a misleading headline, for a change.

The sulfate that results from the scrubbing process at coal-fired power plants is known as synthetic gypsum, and is used widely by many drywall manufacturers, both domestic and international. The process is considered to be environmentally friendly because a waste product is turned into a raw material for something useful and it prevents mining additional natural gypsum. In greener states like California, most of the drywall produced is from synthetic gypsum.

Now, if the Chinese manufacturers used it incorrectly, they may be to blame, but there is nothing inherently wrong with synthetic gypsum.

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January 5, 2009 8:21 PM

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@FatLynn: Thanks for saying that and saving me the post. Turning coal plant emissions into gypsum is a solid and proven practice - and simple chemistry! Obviously the Chinese are doing it wrong. Shocker!

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JiminyChristmas

January 6, 2009 2:25 AM

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@tankertodd: Yeah, I don't think you can just shovel the precipitate from your coal plant scrubber into your neighboring drywall plant. You would have to filter or separate the gypsum from the waste to get something suitable for wallboard. Obviously, there are plenty of opportunities there to skip a step.

Another possibility is that the Chinese gypsum is coming from processes other than flue gas desulfurization. Manufacturing processes for fertilizer, which involve mostly phosphate ore and sulfuric acid, produce a gypsum byproduct. As does the manufacture of titanium dioxide pigment, which uses limestone as part of an acid neutralization process. Hmm, seems like a lot of acidic impurities if one didn't properly filter or mix the final product that went into your drywall.

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bohemian

January 5, 2009 5:53 PM

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How can one tell if your drywall might be of this variety? The drywall in our house is total crap, it dents or breaks with minimal force so we know it is low grade. How are you to tell if it is tainted? Bumping it with something can create a big dent or a hole. Our house was built during the bubble, just not in Florida.

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January 5, 2009 7:00 PM

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@bohemian: I don't think strength of the material is the issue here. I'm sure your builder saved costs by using thinner wallboard. Most of the cheapskates around here will use 3/8 inch thick wallboard. The real bad ones will try to get away with 1/4 inch, which I can blow a hole in if I sneeze too hard. You should be able to tell the thickness of your wallboard by taking the cover off of a lightswitch or power outlet, then measuring the thickness of the board around the box.

When I redid my main basement room, I used 1/2 inch, mildew resistant stuff. Cost was probably twice what it would have been if I'd used 3/8, but it was worth it.

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Jon Klein

January 5, 2009 6:27 PM

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Hate to break it, but US power plants do this too, 90% some percent of gypsum (main component of drywall) is made from scrubbers just like that, but from the US!

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SacraBos

January 5, 2009 9:42 PM

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@Jon Klein: Okay, so when Obama manages to kill the coal electric plant industry to protect the environment, we'll have to strip-mine gypsum again? Okay...

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Anonymous

January 5, 2009 8:29 PM

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@Jon Klein: Exactly! as an engineer who used to do a lot of work with the concrete industry this is normal, the problem is the chinesse company used the wrong process for the grade of bottom ash to produce the dry wall. Basically they shorted the water requirement to gain early strength but left unreacted sulfur in suspension. basicly a process control problem.....

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January 5, 2009 6:34 PM

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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

There is no method known to man that can safeguard us from unsafe products from China. Any system you can devise, the clever Chinese can learn to game and exploit.

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January 6, 2009 2:30 AM

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@LogicalOne: I don't think it is so much a Chinese problem as it is an American problem. The Chinese will build to whatever specs they are asked to build. They can build quality stuff cheaper than what we can build quality stuff, but they can also build cheap imitations of quality stuff... if we ask them to.

To solve the Chinese scammy quality problem, we need to hold those selling/ordering the junk and requesting items be built to junk specs accountable.

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West Coast Secessionist

January 5, 2009 10:39 PM

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@LogicalOne: One word: Embargo.

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January 5, 2009 6:34 PM

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Chinese manufacturers leak? Methinks there might be a grammatical mistake in that description.

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January 5, 2009 6:37 PM

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Another thing to add to my list of worries for any future home construction material. I thought I'd be safe if I just avoided radioactive sand & sandstone -
[www.latimes.com]

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lifestar

January 5, 2009 8:08 PM

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This is really disturbing and sickening. One, we westerners need to get off of our addiction to cheap junk. We need to relearn how to be thrifty, buying things that are high quality when we can afford them, and just save prudently instead of instantly gratifying ourselves with stuff that looks expensive but can actually kill us.

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SacraBos

January 5, 2009 9:45 PM

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@lifestar: Well said. After the production of the Bic lighters and pens, we've pretty much just become a completely disposable society. Why fix something when you can just use your credit card to buy a new one?

Yeah, and I still blame HP laser printers for killing the movement towards the paperless office. Now we print in triplicate, one to file, one for you to throw away, and one for the recipient to throw away...

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noisebar

January 5, 2009 8:10 PM

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Wow... Dry walls made in China? That's a bit of extreme, isn't it. When I had my house built in Canada, the dry walls are from a local company.

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nsv

January 5, 2009 8:28 PM

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I'm about to buy a Florida home built in 2005. (Figures.) Anybody know how to test for this before the closing?

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Dan Richards

January 10, 2009 4:40 PM

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The easiest way to tell is by looking at the backside of the drywall for the letters KNAUF. Try going in the attic to see the back of the sheets on the ceiling.

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Anonymous

January 12, 2009 7:45 PM

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Checking the back of the drywall in the attic may not be enough, as some homes only have it used for the walls and not the ceilings. Ask the sellers if they have had to replace AC coils or the refridgerator. Your easiest and surest bet is just to unscrew an outlet cover and pull out the wiring. If the copper is black....RUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

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MisterE

January 5, 2009 9:26 PM

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Perhaps China needs a bailout too?

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January 6, 2009 12:27 AM

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Whatever happened to brick? I like brick.
Why are these new houses made of particle board and sawdust?

I think we should start moving back to brickwork.

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January 6, 2009 2:54 AM

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@sonneillon: Brick is fantastic. When I was house shopping, brick was on the top of the list of things I wanted. Then came the reality that dollars per square foot, you don't get a whole lot of house with brick. I expected to pay a premium, but the premium was just too high. So I ended up with a partial brick house (one freakin' wall).

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January 6, 2009 2:08 PM

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@failurate: From what I've seen in the Denver house market the Brick houses cost as much as the plywood houses. Often times less.

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btdown

January 6, 2009 6:34 PM

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Use of fly ash/gypsum as mentioned by other commenters here, in drywall in commonplace. It's a byproduct of both coal and nuclear power plants.

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January 6, 2009 10:45 PM

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We only have ourselves to blame. We are the ones voting in politicians that care more about their pockets than the country. Republicans and democrats have both become POLITICIANS. Whoever gives them the most money or secret partners gets what they want. If you want things to change, replace the incumbents.

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Chris Batlemente

March 24, 2009 7:16 PM

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Do they have a list of the builders or distributors that used/sold the bad drywall? Is there any sort of consumer notification process set up yet?

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