var json_comments = new Array("
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zigziggityzoo
December 22, 2008 4:30 PM
Moderate | Flag for review

The setup service actually isn't anything. They just provide you with what's already in the box. It's a huge scam.

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16 replies
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Scatter
December 23, 2008 2:45 PM
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@zigziggityzoo:

sigh... it's always the uninformed that complain.

While it's true that there's nothing in this package that the end user couldn't have done themselves there IS a convenience factor in having the store perform a setup for you.

For the setup fee a store will generally;

Burn the restore CDs for you that don't actually come with the PC any more. This can take two hours alone.

Download and install all Windows updates

Install, activate and register any one purchased program (usually Office or an Internet Security program)

Uninstall all the crap and bloatware that comes pre-installed on a PC like Yahoo toolbar, Google Desktop, Real Player, etc...

Again, I agree that the average person that visits this site can do all of this themselves but not all of our customers have the ability or the time to want to do it thierselves.

The store made a mistake in this situation. Most stores will usually pre-setup a few models to be ahead of the game but they never should have set up all of a model in advance. In this situation the customer should have been given the option of buying one of the pre-setup PCs at no additional charge.

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scootinger
December 22, 2008 7:04 PM
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@zigziggityzoo:
The fact that they are too damn stingy to include a 10-cent plastic disc that you will need if either your Windows install or hard drive ever breaks (more likely than not) in and of itself is a scam.

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KStrike155
December 22, 2008 5:44 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

@zigziggityzoo: It's a software setup, and it's not a scam. You know why retail computers are so cheap? Because they're loaded with crap. Take HP for instance. It's loaded with all of these WildTangent games. WildTangent pays HP to include the games on the hard drive. Same thing with Norton or McAfee antivirus. Same thing with Google, and same thing with SnapFish, Vondo, and a million other things. The computer is loaded with tons of software, most of which the customer will never use, and which may slow down the computer and take up significant space.

So, what they do at these retailers is remove all that crap. They change the settings of the computer to start up faster and to prevent programs from starting automatically. It's not a \"huge scam.\"

Now, should they do it to their entire stock? No, but usually it's done to a certain percentage, say, 30% or 40%.

As to the description about what the service offers:
\"it was a service that meant the laptop would be set up and run optimally and perfectly with Windows and everything she would need.\"
The employee probably just said that because he/she thought that the mother wouldn't have any idea what he/she was talking about if he/she had explained it further. I can totally see my mom going into a store and asking what the service was, then half-listening and coming back to tell me: \"Yeah they offered some service that would make sure everything's set up right and optimized and it will have everything I need.\"

The backup DVD does NOT come with these computers anymore (the computer has a separate recovery partiton, so if you have a hard drive crash you're SCREWED) so that aspect is also not a scam. I do think $80 is a bit steep to pay for a DVD and Windows Updates, but a lot of people pay it because they have no idea what they're doing.

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brent_r
December 25, 2008 12:50 AM
Moderate |Flag for review

@KStrike155: $80 for thier trivial \"service\" and the burning of already present information onto a 50 cent dvd is most definitely steep.

This is a scam for preying on the computer illiterate ... nothing more.

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AD8BC
December 23, 2008 7:14 PM
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@KStrike155: You aren't necessarily screwed if your hard drive crashes. Just majorly inconvenienced. Because, if you need to reload the OS and don't have the original CD, you still have the license to the OS (the Microsoft hologram sticker on the bottom of your laptop). So you need to source yourself an install disk of the same OS and version but you don't need to buy a new license.

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Inglix_the_Mad
December 23, 2008 6:35 PM
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@KStrike155:

Asus still ships with recovery media. Not only that, it takes an hour to do and those \"bullshit\" services often have a purpose like telling you to make your damn media.

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syrian_gamer
December 23, 2008 3:40 AM
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@KStrike155: Here is what happens when somebody tries to purchase a laptop at staples (I use to work there as an HP sales rep).

The worker would usually inform the client that Vista isn't installed yet and that they would have to do it at home or they could do it in store. What the employee tells the customer is that they have to burn the recovery CD's which can take hours, install all the drivers and set up everything.

This scares off many people who don't know much about computers or just want it hassle free. HOWEVER!!!! This is complete BS and YES they are being screwed. I have NEVER heard of STAPLES optimizing the computer by removing what starts up and removing all the bloatware on it. ALL they do is finish the installation, do some windows updates, and burn the CD's. Which even a monkey who knows how to read can do the first 2 as it tells you when you open the computer!

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HeartBurnKid, creepy morbid freak
December 23, 2008 12:40 AM
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@KStrike155: Lenovo doesn't come with the discs, but does come with a free applet to burn the discs for you. I'm given to understand that this is pretty standard, and it's a fairly quick and painless process.

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sega8800
December 22, 2008 7:45 PM
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@KStrike155: if you are really computer noob, even with the so called service, your computer would be broken in months of use because of all the spyware, adware that you get during online surfing. then you got go into the store again and have it serviced again, which they will do the windows update, crapware deactive, and etc. i really don't see the point of charging you the service fee before you start using the computer.

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parkavery
December 22, 2008 6:22 PM
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@KStrike155: So what you're saying is, all the companies that pay good money (I've heard $5/PC for some software) should also be upset, in addition to customers who can't buy a product without an add-on?

That's not really an argument FOR the service, is it? ;-)

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KStrike155
December 22, 2008 6:30 PM
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@parkavery: Hahah, I do agree with that statement. If I was paying good money, only to have some Staples employee wipe it off the computer, I'd be kind of pissed.

And to be clear, I'm not making my argument FOR the service. My argument is against making sweeping generalizations that something is a scam when the person doing so has no idea what they're talking about. :)

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NumberEight
December 22, 2008 5:53 PM
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@KStrike155: Dell comes with the OS disc. I believe Asus does as well.

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MrEvil
December 22, 2008 11:26 PM
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@NumberEight: Even on the Dells that don't come with a restore disc if you're REALLY REALLY nice to the phone tech and make up some BS about how the recovery partition is hosed, they'll send them to you for FREE and even overnight them to you.

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SpdRacer
December 22, 2008 6:01 PM
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@NumberEight: Actually, you have to request the software from Dell (not free), they no longer include it.

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lordargent
December 23, 2008 1:42 AM
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@SpdRacer:

I bought a laptop from dell about 3 months ago, setup discs were included for free (but none of it was installed because I checked the [] no pre-installed productivity software, option)

/doesn't matter since I wiped the drive, re-partitioned it to get rid of their recovery partition, and installed a fresh XP image

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JohnnyP
December 22, 2008 9:11 PM
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@SpdRacer: That most depend how you buy it.... The Dell that just came in last week came with DVDs and CDS for both XP and Vista (ordered the downgrade)

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 6:23 PM
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@SpdRacer: Not true, I just got a Studio and a Mini from Dell, both came with CD's with the OS, and DVD's with the drivers. I didn't request them, nor was there a spot to request them during purchase.

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vega480
December 22, 2008 6:15 PM
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@SpdRacer: Correct, its on a separate partition and you can burn them off yourself though from booting from the restore partition.

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esd2020
December 22, 2008 5:40 PM
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@zigziggityzoo: The restore CD isn't usually in the box, actually. You have to burn in yourself.

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MightyDwarf56
December 23, 2008 11:33 AM
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@esd2020: Depends on the computer you buy, my HP desktop didn't have one, but my Toshiba lap top did.

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NumberEight
December 22, 2008 5:38 PM
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@zigziggityzoo: Geek Squad does this. We \"optimize\" the system by cleaning up the registry by stopping bullshit services that slow the computer down upon start-up, you know, the crappy manufacturer services that do not need to be run at start-up, i.e. Acer's Empowering Technology and HP crap. We also perform Windows Updates. In my opinion, this should be done for people who aren't versed in Windows AND IT SHOULD BE FREE.

One thing that I really do hate is that Geek Squad opens brand new laptops, ones that haven't been sold, optimizes them, then places a $39.99 price sticker on them. That makes the laptop used. I hate that we do that. It makes me feel really bad.

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stopNgoBeau
December 25, 2008 9:58 AM
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@NumberEight: I brought it a computer I had bought from Best Buy that failed on the second boot. The Geek Squad tech replaced it with a replacement off the shelf, but started doing what you mentioned, the registry tweaks, without even asking. He wasn't going to charge me for it, but he also didn't ask if I wanted him to do it. I very kindly informed him that he should have asked me what I had wanted, since it was my computer that he was messing with, not his.

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strathmeyer
December 22, 2008 5:18 PM
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@zigziggityzoo: It's almost as if there should be some government entity to prevent large corporations from systematically scamming consumers.

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 4:32 PM
Moderate |Flag for review

Ah yes, Staples, the company that is too cheap to give employees a discount. And too cheap to have new manila file folders in the corporate office.

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5 replies
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Scatter
December 24, 2008 12:14 AM
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@MeSoHornsby:

It's always nice to respond to people that have ABSOLUTELY no idea what they're talking about.

Staples just offered a 15% discount to all of its employees last week.

While it's always nice and fun to criticize big companies on this site please consider the sources of your information; customers. While I agree that companies need to be watched to ensure that customers aren't taken advantage of most of the stories that are posted to this site are very one sided. But of course customers are always the most noble and honest people in the world. They would never embellish the truth.

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scootinger
December 22, 2008 7:06 PM
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@MeSoHornsby: I was under the impression that they did offer their employees a discount? Every now and then Staples has a 12% \"Customer Appreciation\" coupon and I always thought the discount popped up on the screen as something like \"associate discount.\"

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:53 PM
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@scootinger: The employee discount is kind of a joke. Employees do get a better rewards card, but the discount itself is time sensitive, cannot be aplied to clearence or sale items, and cannot be stacked with any offer or coupon.


On the flip side though, there are occasional opportunities that pop up. I picked up a monitor pretty cheap that was technically on damage (dot com return with nowhere to go).

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Cyco
December 22, 2008 5:16 PM
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@MeSoHornsby: Home Depot and BJ's is the same way. Neither companies offer any type of discount.

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DeeJayQueue
December 22, 2008 4:36 PM
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@MeSoHornsby: Aw, come on now, they have 2 days a year where they give employees 15% off, AND they let us have rewards cards too! Seriously though, my managers would generally hard-mod the price down a few bucks for anything expensive we bought there just because they knew corporate were dicks.

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Corporate_guy
December 22, 2008 4:33 PM
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Hopefully it's not legal to force an extra service on people just to buy an item as the advertised price. And the worst part is that if they \"Set-up\" these laptops. That means they opened all the boxes and used the laptops. Which means they are no longer new.

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3 replies
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thegraz95
December 24, 2008 2:20 AM
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@Corporate_guy:

The laptop is not technically \"used\" or to be discounted until a customer takes purchase of the item. Similar to test driving cars. There may be a 100 miles on a car you buy brand new but its unlikely that you're going to pay a used price for that car. This practice of pre-setting up computers isn't doing a thing for most customers but a legit retailer should know that they are not allowed to force the customer to buy it. The can offer it, but must also offer to take away the service if the customer opts to buy just the brand new version.

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KMan13 still wants a Pontiac G8
December 23, 2008 1:02 AM
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@Corporate_guy:
I also agree with the mentality that these laptops should now be sold as \"open-box\" ... They are no longer new, and you did not request the service.

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Ibanez720
December 22, 2008 5:05 PM
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@Corporate_guy: As far as I know it is illegal. If there is no mention of additional fees under the advertising then it is obviously false advertising and/or bait and switch. Like the article said, she needs to contact the state AG and file a complaint. I have done it before and it worked for me.

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 4:33 PM
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This is a great way for retailers to pass off previously sold and then returned merchandise as \"new\" and not take a hit on selling an \"open box\" at a reduced price.

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1 replies
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bwcbwc
December 23, 2008 3:40 AM
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@RoscoeNowak: And that would be an even bigger scam than the forced setup fee. Sounds like the kind of manager who would pull this.

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Nettwerk
December 22, 2008 4:35 PM
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My sister bought one of these tablet pc's and all the system restore stuff is in the box. You had to 'setup' windows (username,ect) but everything else was already installed ready to go. What a scam!

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concordia
December 22, 2008 4:36 PM
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Maybe when they're done 'setting up' those laptops they can install the maps onto their GPS units.

It takes three hours, you know.

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1 replies
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tinmanx
December 22, 2008 8:24 PM
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@concordia: I actually had to do that, and it took about 5 hours. But I just set it and went to sleep. Ah, the good old days of have to load your own maps onto a SD card.

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OmniZero
December 22, 2008 4:38 PM
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Can't you claim this practice as bait and switch? You see the advertised price of a non \"set up\" model. Then you go into the store and there are no non \"set up\" models available, so they try to sell you one that is \"set up\" for the extra $80. Amiright?

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easy2panic
December 22, 2008 4:39 PM
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My favorite is just letting corporate know that you have intentions to sue them because their store is doing this, I bet you it will be fixed in no time.

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1 replies
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easy2panic
December 22, 2008 4:40 PM
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@easy2panic: You have to let them know you are going to sue in small claims court and mention somewhere it is going to cost them more money in legal than just to fix the problem, and if they don't show up, you win anyway.

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Real Cheese Flavor
December 22, 2008 4:39 PM
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If they had to take the laptop out of the box to \"set it up,\" ask for an open-box discount.

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5 replies
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NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★
December 22, 2008 5:29 PM
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@Real Cheese Flavor: Beat me to it. As soon as they break the seal, it's open box. Also, isn't copying the OS illegal if you don't own the computer? What about since they ran it first, you don't get to agree to the EULA? Doesn't that mess with things? Also now your warranty is cut short as if they opened the box and sold it two months later, according to the CPU it was \"started and used\" two months before you bought it, which starts the warranty clock.

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snowburnt
December 22, 2008 5:51 PM
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@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: I'm pretty sure from another person's post that they use what's called a \"Slipstream\" install. Basically you install an OS on a computer, update it to current, then you run a tool called SysPrep that removes all identifying information from it and creates new install disks with the fully updated operating system.

The EULA and initial set up still needs to be run by the new user after they install the \"slipstreamed\" OS.

It's perfectly legal from a software licensing stand point.

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NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★
December 22, 2008 8:01 PM
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@snowburnt: I hate to say it, but I wouldn't want those disks then. They are at most using the cheapest disks they can find to burn them then. I'd rather have professionally burned CD's than one written on by markers and burned in a computers drive.

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snowburnt
December 22, 2008 9:53 PM
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@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: I'm not defending them, just saying how I would do it if I were going to rip people off :-)

Definitely don't use this service and don't buy a computer from staples.

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weakdome
December 22, 2008 6:34 PM
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@snowburnt: Sorry snowburnt, but there's no way your average staples tech knows how to do that.

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snowburnt
December 22, 2008 9:52 PM
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@weakdome: I don't think you understand the process. Someone who knows what they're doing does all the hard work of creating the CD...Possibly some head IT guy at corporate...Next, he burns the cd and gives it to the \"average staples tech\" who basically pops the CD in the computer, turns it on and clicks ok.

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bwcbwc
December 23, 2008 3:57 AM
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@snowburnt: I think NHTOB's talking about the \"backup image\" that they give as the supposed tangible value of the service. No way they have a mass burning facility for backup images that need updating on at least a weekly basis, with different versions for each model of computer they sell (i.e. device driver configs and so on)

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NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★
December 22, 2008 10:40 PM
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@snowburnt: Then given how quickly corporate could press and distribute the disk, you'd never have the latest fixes, unless they are opening the boxes every week at most and every month at least to do the monthly updates. Ewwwww.

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Persistence - Long viv revolisyon an konsomatè yo!
December 22, 2008 4:41 PM
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This is why I don't buy computers from stores. A computer becomes much more useful when you put it together from barebones and install the OS yourself. It's cheaper and you avoid all the \"offers\" and \"free\" crapware they install and in the end you've learned a lot about how your computer works. Also installing a linux distro for a dual boot won't void any warranties and building a computer is just so easy these days.

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8 replies
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Zclyh3
December 22, 2008 5:56 PM
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@Persistence:

Oh and that's IF you know what you're doing to be able NOT to buy from stores.

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Pink Puppet
December 22, 2008 5:08 PM
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@Persistence: You do recognize the inherent challenges in building a tablet pc, right? Or were you too busy self-aggrandizing?

As a geek, I find it so offensive that my fellow geeks always have to pop up with this little number. It is just as obnoxious as that guy in every restaurant post that says \"This is why I never go to restaurants! You can make everything cheaper and healthier at home!\"

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unobservant
December 22, 2008 5:03 PM
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@Persistence: Can I have your number so I can give it to my non-techno-geek family members after I tell them how much fun it is to build their own? I've had it up to here with their halp computah calls, and they all own Dells.

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Zclyh3
December 22, 2008 5:50 PM
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@unobservant:

Man seriously. I know exactly what you mean. That's why I don't bother helping out with family now when it comes to building or even SELLING them PCs. Because when you do, for some reason, you instantly because free tech support to them and they can call you at anytime.

I get crap from my mom a lot especially coming from a Chinese family and that I should help out my family when they ask, but the requests has to be reasonable. I'm not a kid anymore and my time costs money.

Also, sometimes when they ask me to build a computer, they always ask for something real cheap. I tell them go to BestBuy or whatever and buy it yourself. My uncle wanted me to build him an HTPC and I told him to go buy it himself. They don't seem to understand you have to pay to play. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but given these uncertain economic times, my time is worth a lot and if you don't put up, then you need to shut up.

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Green Goth Brit Chick - AlternatEve
December 22, 2008 10:08 PM
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@Zclyh3: I'm quite lucky in that my mother at least is very savvy, so she can fix the normal issues that come up with my sister's, father's, and usually her own, machines.

Having said that, she once had areally bad time with her work issued laptop - it kept logging her out of the work network for no reason, but only at home. She tried everything she could think of, so did the IT department, it worked in the office but not at home.

I came over and poked it, and realised not only was it throwing her out of the network constantly, her general internet was REEEEALLY slow. Toddled off to the router... its baking hot because my dad's buried it under a pile of paperwork. Turned it off, let it cool, turned it back on. Bingo. Working laptop.

NO-ONE, not my mum, not IT, had thought to restart the router >.<

My payment was a case of cider and a huge-ass bunch of flowers. I have a sneaking suspicion they may have been charged as an expense to her work ;)

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chilled
December 22, 2008 6:44 PM
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@Zclyh3: I bet your family really likes you!

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tinmanx
December 22, 2008 8:33 PM
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@chilled: I used to build, then I got a dell. I priced everything out and the Dell was cheaper than what I can build. The only thing I did myself was to add more memory.

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unobservant
December 22, 2008 6:30 PM
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@Zclyh3: I got my mom to stop calling me after I kept forcing her to sit there and watch me fix her computer, then going into GREAT TECHNICAL DETAIL about why it was all futzed up in the first place. I'd never do it any other way. She begged me for a Dell after that.

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Pink Puppet
December 22, 2008 6:18 PM
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@Zclyh3: I never realized Chinese and Jewish mothers were so very similar. I feel ya, man, I feel ya.

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BigPapaCherry
December 22, 2008 4:56 PM
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@Persistence: Why is there always one of these comments in a computer buying story?

Look, I'm for building your own computer as the next guy, and want to when I can afford the upfront cost (poor college student). But after working in IT on campus, I know a large majority of people don't know the difference between a music file and iTunes. Those who do know computers might not have the time to research all the part to make sure they play nice together and are quality, and then have to put them all together. If I didn't have the time, I'd have no problem buying off the rack and cleaning it myself.

Also, get back to me when you figure out how to build a tablet PC like OP wants. Would be a fun project if possible.

All that being said, Staples computer service, geek squad, firedog et al. are scam artists who charge for something as simple as clicking \"update\" when Windows asks to.

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JustThatGuy3
December 22, 2008 4:50 PM
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@Persistence:


\"building a computer is just so easy these days.\"


Building a _DESKTOP_ is reasonably easy - building a laptop, on the other hand, is a bit more challenging.

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Scuba Steve
December 22, 2008 5:38 PM
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@JustThatGuy3: @Persistence: I've built 10 or 11 of my home systems over the years, and now I've just given up on it. Why?


No hassle, no work, no worries. It's been tested, and if shipping didn't mess it up, everything works right out of the box.


Sure, it's expensive. But there are only a few high margin items actually in the system. My advice is to get the easy to install/high margin items (ones that are selling much cheaper seperately) and install them afterwards. I bought a 280 GTX and a new HD and had no problems installing them in the Water cooled tower that I ordered from online.

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G_Money21
December 22, 2008 4:41 PM
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Sounds a lot like the \"door trim\" that the bang you 300-400 on when trying to buy a new car.

I'll take this a step further and bash Circuit City, while I am at it for an attempted scam. Over the Labor Day weekend I went to buy a 46\" 1080p Sammy LCD. It was on sale + I had a coupon, so I essentially got a 1599 MSRP TV for about $1250. When I go to pay, and tell the guy I need it delivered, he says no problem, thats $250. I said what! He goes on, yeah someone from the store will deliver it and set it up for you, i respond, oh Firedog you mean, yeah I dont need that, I just need it dropped off at my door. The CC rep then says, oh you just want a fedex guy to just throw it on your doorstep? I respond yep that works for me.

He then goes to his computer and says, oh the earliest delivery i can have for you is next week, but if you get the firedog I can have it to you first thing tomorrow morning. I proceed to pretend like I am contemplating the firedog option (i mean the shakedown) then say to to the rep, you know what, I'll just go buy it from somewhere who can deliver it earlier, thanks alot for the help. As I started walking away, the rep says.....hold on sir, we just got an opening for a delivery tomorrow......riiiiiiiight. If CC didnt have the TV so cheap and I didnt have the coupon I wouldnt have put up with that nonsense.

Just another different scam at CC.

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3 replies
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harlock_JDS
December 22, 2008 11:37 PM
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@G_Money21: I had something like that happen when getting my cable set up. The cable guy came and said he's have to come back because the box was locked and i'd have to call and set up the appointment again. I call and the CSR tells me that the next available date is a month away and then goes on to say that if i sign up for 'the triple play' (add phone service) that they can have someone out the next day. When i ask him about the difference in install time he gores on to say \" we give a higher priority to our good customers\". I end up telling him that he should give me the closest time he can because i plan on calling other cable providers and if they can come out to install before the time he gives me, if i can't i'll go with them (which lands me a install time 7 days away).

The next day i call back and get a different CSR who tells me the next day won't be a problem. I didn't even have to tell her about the problem the night before.

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kc2idf
December 22, 2008 5:47 PM
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@G_Money21: I bet you didn't get a 46\" 1080p TV. I bet you got a \"46\" Class\" 1080p TV. I bet it's 45\" and change. The Shrink Ray has started to hit TVs.

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zentec
December 22, 2008 6:47 PM
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@kc2idf:

I think as a ham radio operator, you'd be able to see it for what it is; a 46\" TV being 1168.4 mm. .4 mm is a whisper beyond .015\", which is the missing 1/64th of a \"46 inch Class TV with a diagonal screen size of 45 63/64\".

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 4:42 PM
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The same happened to me at the Best Buy in Glen Allen, VA. I went to buy a Toshiba laptop in Oct with 4GB RAM. The only one they had in stock, they said, had already optimized by the Geek Squad, so the advertised price was not the advertised price, it was actually $40 more if I wanted to buy. I went straight to customer service and complained because I wasn't set on buying that they were not selling to me at the advertised price. They chopped the fee and gave it to me at the advertised price. It is a good thing I didn't pay for the service, because there was all sorts of advertising and promotional software installed on the laptop even after the so-called \"optimization\", which I discovered was far from optimized. A lot of work by me had to be done to remove all the trial versions and marketing gimmicks.

This seems to be a growing trend. They are scamming people who are ready to make a big purchase, and betting that $40-$100 extra won't be enough to change the customer's mind on buying.

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ganzhimself
December 22, 2008 4:42 PM
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When my wife and I bought a laptop at Best Buy, they forced a free Geek Squad \"setup\" on us. Basically they opened the box, plugged the laptop in, and ran the Dell Hardware diagnostic suite... All things I could have done, as I used to work Help Desk... They tried forcing a bunch of other services, including creating the \"backup discs\" even though the laptop came with all discs. If I added up all the services I think it would have cost almost as much as the laptop did.

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MrEvil
December 22, 2008 11:34 PM
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@ganzhimself: The Best Buy free setup is a means to make sure you leave the store with a functional computer that's also not a box full of bathroom tile.


Back in my more foolish years I worked at Best Buy and I lost count of how many people (who didn't opt for the in-store setup) called me everything but a white man because their new computer didn't work out of the box.

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Pixelantes Anonymous
December 22, 2008 4:56 PM
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@ganzhimself: What would happen if I offered to buy the laptop, agree to scams, and then changed my mind and don't want to buy the laptop any more?

I'm very tempted to try. Several times. On multiple stores.

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rbb
December 22, 2008 4:43 PM
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What's scarier is if they actually connect the laptop to the internet to get the windows updates. If the laptop does not have a current AV program up and running, it will be compromised in a matter of minutes...

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snowburnt
December 22, 2008 5:58 PM
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@rbb: They probably do a slipstream install using disks from a base install that was patched up. It's very simple, very easy. You have one person (maybe even at corporate) update windows and create a slipstream install disk. Then the helpdesk jockeys just pop the disk in and it will install windows again with all the updates.

It is very difficult for an uninvited connection to get to your computer behind a NATed connection (a generic off the shelf firewall)

Also, at least with windows 2003 until you give it the go ahead, it will not accept connections from anywhere except windows updates.

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Corporate_guy
December 22, 2008 5:28 PM
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@rbb: I take it the last time you used windows was around Fall of 03?

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FreshFocus
December 22, 2008 5:20 PM
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@rbb:

Highly unlikely.

You wouldn't get a virus from dloading from the MS update site. As well, you don't really get viruses unless you download something.

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Sidecutter
December 22, 2008 6:09 PM
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@FreshFocus: @Corporate_guy: Putting an unsecured system online with no firewall or AV software is just BEGGING for it to be contaminated. Generally within 5 minutes, without you even doing anything other than having it running. Port scanning, etc. with quickly locate and launch attacks upon the PC, which will have no defenses.


Now, in all fairness, the situation is a little different when you're behind a router that has a firewall, or a corporate environment. Circuit City's internet hookups are fairly safe, I'm sure, since they no doubt have enterprise-level hardware firewalls and protected routers, etc.


But, not everyone has anything other than a modem between them and the internet at home.

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SScorpio
December 22, 2008 6:54 PM
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@Sidecutter:

This is true for the initial release of XP, but SP2's defaultly enabled firewall prevents it. Vista which almost all new PCs does not suffer from this.

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Shaggy
December 22, 2008 5:36 PM
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@FreshFocus: You might not get a virus from the MS update site, but to get to there, you have to connect to the Internet, which opens up the computer to infection by a worm. And, yes, you CAN get infected by a worm without having to open up a specially crafted email, running a program, or downloading anything. For examples of this, see Code Red ([www.cert.org]).

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snowburnt
December 22, 2008 6:01 PM
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@Shaggy: That exploit won't work unless the computer in question is open on port 80 AND the firewall is allowing connections to that computer on port 80. I wouldn't expect even best buy to connect computers directly to the internet...Further, nothing that you buy in a store -- even a server with a default install -- will be running IIS, which means that the computer isn't listening on port 80.

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Corporate_guy
December 22, 2008 5:56 PM
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@Shaggy: Why to cite something that no longer applies. \"July 19, 2001\". Come on. That did infect windows xp, but the exploit would have never even happened if the windows firewall was on by default. Which is the way it is set by default now. There has been nothing for 5 years that can automatically spread like that.

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goodpete
December 22, 2008 4:47 PM
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I recently purchased a car and it seems this is a common practice in the automobile industry, too. I had one dealer explain that they had a $1000 \"accessory package\" (including, as far as I could tell, a pinstripe, splash guards, and \"door edge guards\") that they \"usually didn't recommend people buy their car without.\" They automatically had put the package on every car in stock, but they \"might\" be able to knock it down to $500. Needless to say, I walked out and never came back.

But this wasn't an uncommon practice. Another dealer added a \"$200\" pinstripe to the car I was interested in after I test drove it and showed interest. When I confronted her about it and said that was insane that they'd add a feature and make me pay for it after I already showed interest in the car as-is, the sales person told me, \"if you walk into dealerships like that, you're not going to be able to get a car anywhere.\" And then escorted me out.

The place I ended up buying from was the only one that didn't do stupid stuff like that. When I told them I wasn't interested in the \"accessory package\" they'd added. They said rather then take the stuff off, they'd just include it at no charge. So obviously those splash guards aren't even worth the time it takes to remove them.

I know that was a long and somewhat unrelated rant, but I just wanted to show how common this practice of tossing on unwanted \"excess-ories\" is and forcing people to pay for them in the car business. So, I'm not surprised to see that dubious practice spreading into the computer business (another sales business that often has salespeople who prey on customers' ignorance of the product).

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bwcbwc
December 23, 2008 4:04 AM
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@plamoni: I like the door trim analogy. I'll only be happy when this whole corporate upselling mentality is beaten to the bloody pulp it deserves to be. Or at least reverts to an upsale where something of value is actually provided for the added price.

I know some people actually appreciate these add-on services, but trying to sell them to gadget geeks is like trying to offer an auto mechanic an extended warranty on his car. These corporate data mining/customer profiling systems obviously aren't working right.

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TexasMama37
December 22, 2008 11:39 PM
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@plamoni:
My husband had the same thing happen to him many many moons ago. He told the salesman that he wasn't going to pay for the pinstriping. They said he had to since it was already on the car. He walked out. Of course they caught up with him and gave it to him for free. THAT'S the key -- you must be willing to walk away form any \"deal\" that gets worse by the minute.

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lalaland13
December 22, 2008 9:56 PM
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@plamoni: Having just gone car shopping, I feel your pain, but at least no one tried that crap on us. That's pretty shitty. Finally got a car, though I had to buy my own floor mats, I didn't care.

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magic8ball
December 22, 2008 5:52 PM
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@plamoni: My local Honda dealership tried something similar - I wanted a Fit, and they told me they'd have to get one in from another dealership. Then they called back and said they'd found one, but it had already had the \"clear-coat sealant\" applied to the paint and I'd have to pay extra for that. If I didn't want that one, it might take them as much as a month to get another one! I told them I'd wait a month. Miraculously, they called back an hour later and offered me one without sealant.

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G_Money21
December 22, 2008 4:54 PM
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@plamoni:

The reason for the $400 accessory package that costs the dealer less than $10 is to show a GREATER DISCOUNT when negotiating for the car.

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goodpete
December 22, 2008 5:03 PM
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@G_Money21: Or to sucker people into actually paying that much. The first guy had me pinned for a car-buying newbie and was ready to make me pay MSRP for the car + the $500. At least I had the good sense to walk away, even if I wasn't able to stand up for myself...

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KyleOrton
December 22, 2008 5:08 PM
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@plamoni: Nothing makes me happier, when buying a car, than negotiating a good price and then getting free all-weather floor mats added on at the end. Seriously. Makes me giddy.

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G_Money21
December 22, 2008 4:51 PM
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The upsell is part of the retail game. During my TV purchase I was \"pressured\" into buying a Warranty. They conviniently had an LCD TV with busted pixels by the register telling me that if I opened the box and my tv looked like that I would be stuck with it UNLESS i purchased the $400 Warranty. I was also pressured into buying $100 monster HDMI cables, as well as pressured into buying the Firedog installation. Not only by the salesman, but later by his manager.

It really has become quite the hassle to purchase any type of major electronics. The only reason I even deal with Brick And Mortar stores is the ability to bring it back if something is wrong. Other than that all other smaller purchases are done online.

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JoshReflek
December 22, 2008 9:33 PM
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@G_Money21: When they're telling you \"If you buy this and its broken you better hope you bought an expensive warranty to cover it\", than they are not selling you a quality item and dont stand behind their products with a no questions asked return policy.


If they're making you pay to return something broken, which is shady as fuck, how nice and easy will it be to actually use that warranty? I bet you they have a thousand reasons why your $400 warranty is suddenly, 'invalid'.


PAY MORE ATTENTION.

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TracyHamandEggs
December 22, 2008 5:34 PM
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@G_Money21: remember that Comcast, and Im pretty sure Cox and a couple other cable companies, offer free HDMI cables with your converter.

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FreshFocus
December 22, 2008 5:22 PM
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@G_Money21:

Saying \"No\" wasn't an option? Or walking out perhaps?

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dragonfire81
December 22, 2008 5:26 PM
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@FreshFocus: It probably was but if you really want that TV at that sale price, you're going to have to survive a gauntlet of upsell and pressure sales tactics to close the deal.

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TCTH
December 22, 2008 5:19 PM
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@G_Money21: Sounds like Sears... at least the $400 warranty part.

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SDreamer
December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
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@G_Money21: That's pretty much why I like to shop locally than online, just to have that ability to bring it back if something is wrong. But, shoot, if I were pressured like that I'd just call it off and walk out. I don't need that kind of pressure when buying a tv, I'd just want to buy it and get out.

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akronharry
December 22, 2008 4:51 PM
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I bought a computer at Best Buy in Avon Ohio 5-6 weeks ago for 3$99 which came with \"free\" anti-virus software. The salesman tried to push a \"set up special\" on me and I said no. He then asked why I would not want that and I said I was not interested. He was about to say it again and I told him that he needed to shut up and give me the computer. He then said that the computer was already \"set up\" and that he would take the amount off of the price. WTF? I bought it anyway because $399 was a good price for it.

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Nick Highland
December 22, 2008 4:51 PM
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It's shady, but the service is legitimate... provided they do other services on top of what was stated.

Here's how it works:
HP does not send recovery disks. Staples creates them.
The laptop does not come with all updates. For example, none of those laptops would have had Microsoft's most recent Internet Explorer update, which patched a major security hole that had been present since IE5.

The service is also supposed to install one software title of the customer's choice, and register the computer with the manufacturer under the customer's name.
The service should also set up all user accounts and passwords, and run optimization tools (such as turning off UAC).

It seems like there was at least one more service, but I cant think of it off-hand. But overall, the service takes more than three hours (creating the disks can take two hours easily), so the service price is justified. Also, the target customer for this type of service is one who a) cant do this by themselves or b) business people who would rather have someone else do it to save time and headaches. It should NEVER be forced on someone, especially if they can do it themselves.

What is unacceptable, though, is that it was not provided for the customer as an OPTION. It was being forced.

Two things to keep in mind: Not all staples stores operate in this way - I am a staples tech and we would NEVER do this to our customers. That's a great short-term business plan, if you don't plan on staying open too much longer, but we would love for our business to continue growing.

The other thing is that Staples Corporate monitors this website. Every time Staples is mentioned on it, we receive e-mails and sometimes conference calls regarding how we should improve service.

SO- no excuses from me, what that store is doing is unacceptable. But I see a lot of people saying that the service is not legitimate, and that is simply not true.

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pmcpa2
December 22, 2008 6:15 PM
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@Nick Highland: HEY STAPLES CORP!!! I Caught your \"TECH\" in East Norriton, PA (SUNDAY 11:45AM EST 12/21/2008) Scaring the customer into buying the service. Stating that it would cost the lady $80 from HP for the disks, but he could do it for $60. I informed your potential customer that she was being lied to, and she could do it herself, so she walked out, and you lost a sale, because your unqualified tech lied.

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dragonfire81
December 22, 2008 7:48 PM
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@pmcpa2: Actually that \"unqualified\" tech was doing what his manager told him to do. Staples techs are salespeople first, technicians second.

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bwcbwc
December 23, 2008 4:12 AM
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@dragonfire81: Well if they're getting their customers PO'ed as much as this thread seems to indicate, they aren't very well-qualified as sales-people either.

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thisisasignin
December 22, 2008 5:52 PM
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@Nick Highland:
HP does not send recovery disks. Staples creates them.


Who asked Staples to create them? True, HP have opted to no longer send recovery discs with their machines. However, HP along with others, provide a recovery partition.


The laptop does not come with all updates. For example, none of those laptops would have had Microsoft's most recent Internet Explorer update, which patched a major security hole that had been present since IE5.


So, a customer should bring in their computer whenever a new update comes out? A laptop running Vista would notify you of updates once you connect to the internet. If you do not use the laptop to connect to the internet, an IE update is unnecessary.


The service is also supposed to install one software title of the customer's choice, and register the computer with the manufacturer under the customer's name.


Oh yay, more crapware. I wonder how far \"customers choice\" will go.


The service should also set up all user accounts and passwords, and run optimization tools (such as turning off UAC).


How is turning off UAC for somebody who does not know how to turn off UAC an optimization?
...
The other thing is that Staples Corporate monitors this website. Every time Staples is mentioned on it, we receive e-mails and sometimes conference calls regarding how we should improve service.


Hopefully the stores practicing this \"set up\" BS will get a conference call telling them to stop.

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Corporate_guy
December 22, 2008 5:47 PM
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@Nick Highland: HP's have a recovery partition on the hard drive. And a fresh vista install disk directly from hp only costs 16 bucks(of course the store doesn't inform you of this option). So, yes, this service is a HUGE scam. There are much better cheaper options than having the store make recovery cds of the computer before you install any applications. A recovery cd at purchase time is only going to ensure the spyware can be restored. There is no point in that. The registration tasks and windows update takes 5-10(plus automated install time) to do yourself. The tech at the store also just sets it and forgets it. They don't actually nurse the thing for 3 hours. So claiming the process takes 3 hours of labor is ridiculous. Please stop trying to justify charging someone a fee comparable to the orginial price of the computer to do all the \"necessary\" \"setup\" work.

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Scatter
December 23, 2008 2:56 PM
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@Corporate_guy:

Yes, a PC comes with a restore partition. How will this partition help you when your hard drive dies and you replace it with another?

Sure, HP sells restore CDs for a fee...for three years after the model has been released. Then they're no longer available. What if your hard drive crashes after three years?

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that store made restore CDs will restore Spyware.

And one more thing, in my stores (I cover a handful of stores for Staples) one of the most popular services that I perform is virus and Spyware removal. If the average customer was as knowledgeable and resourceful as you seem to think they are then I wouldn't be getting a few dozen virus infected machines each week.

We offer our services as a convenience for those who need it. If you don't need it then congrats to you but there are plenty of others who do.

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WhitneyGH
December 23, 2008 4:03 PM
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@Scatter:
Sure, HP sells restore CDs for a fee...for three years after the model has been released. Then they're no longer available. What if your hard drive crashes after three years?
Maybe buy the restore CDs along with or shortly after your computer purchase? So you can be prepared in case of a crash, rather than just twiddling around until it actually happens?

And one more thing, in my stores (I cover a handful of stores for Staples) one of the most popular services that I perform is virus and Spyware removal. If the average customer was as knowledgeable and resourceful as you seem to think they are then I wouldn't be getting a few dozen virus infected machines each week.
I'm not saying that the average customer knows how to remove viruses or spyware. Virus removal especially can be tricky, and - although I personally think spyware removal is so easy that my 87-year-old grandfather could do it - sometimes it's just easier to take a computer in to a qualified technician rather than risk screwing up your PC yourself.

HOWEVER, in no way whatsoever is virus/spyware removal worth the ungodly amount that services like GeekSquad charge. There are plenty of non-corporate-affiliated local technicians who will do the job (and probably better) for much less.

My husband once looked at GeekSquad's prices and almost went into cardiac arrest. Then he looked at me admiringly and said, \"All that stuff that you do so easily at home, they have to charge $300 for. You're awesome!\" I didn't have the heart to destroy his illusions of me as some Supreme Computer Goddess.

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FreshFocus
December 22, 2008 5:24 PM
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@Nick Highland:

It is not legitimate when a computer is advertised for a certain price and then the consumer is told that all PC's have been \"set-up\".

That is bait and switch.

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Sidecutter
December 22, 2008 6:21 PM
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@FreshFocus: If you read his post, that's pretty much what he said.

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invader-zim
December 22, 2008 8:30 PM
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This is Nick Highland - facebook wont let me sign in, sorry.

@FreshFocus:

I'm in agreement with you. Read my statement again, I stated that I do not agree with what that particular store did. I also stated that it is not a common business practice in staples.

Stores are required to obtain a signature from all customers before performing service on their computer. Since that did not occur on those computers, not only is it poor business practice, but it is also against policy.

@ Corporate_guy:

The service is still a little different. If the hard drive bites the dust, the recovery disks provide all software and drivers that originally came with the computer. This means CD/DVD software, Microsoft Works, DVD Playing software and codecs, etc. The recovery partition allows you to do that, provided the hard drive is working. The Microsoft disk is no longer included in many computers (Though it was when Vista was initially released - the upgrade disk).

The goal is to be honest. I get it, that store wasnt being. But please, dont let that be a poor mark on the whole system.

@thisisasignin:

Clearly, you would not be the target customer for this kind of service. You are familiar with how a computer works, and seem to have the time to do it yourself. Many customers are not so computer savvy, and this service is much more beneficial to them.

@everyone:

I doubt I'll comment again - my intention was not to defend what the store did, only to provide insight into what the service is supposed to be. Yes, that store messed up. No, the service offered should not have been forced upon anyone, the box should not have been opened before being sold to the customer, and the service is not for everyone. But there is value in it, and some customers appreciate what we offer them.

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thisisasignin
December 22, 2008 9:17 PM
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@highland04:
If the hard drive bites the dust, the recovery disks provide all software and drivers that originally came with the computer.


If the hard drive \"bites the dust\" then what good will any CD do?


Oh I get it, conveniently purchase a new hard drive, at Staples of course.
Plus the install & hard drive set up fee, a fee to have them use the discs the customer paid them to make, then the fee for the original OS \"set up\" again.
If a HDD containing a recovery partition malfunctions then you deal with the manufacturer.
As other comments have pointed out, if a separate disc is still desired, you go to the manufacturer.

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dragonfire81
December 22, 2008 5:28 PM
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@FreshFocus: Not just \"set up\" but that they have to pay extra for this \"set up\" service the business has apparently provided arbitrarily without providing the customer the opportunity to decline it.

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ADismalScience
December 22, 2008 4:52 PM
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Help! Our margins are under pressure because computers are loss-leaders and attachment rates are way down!


Just mark up the laptops, guys. Don't feign services that don't exist, don't lie to consumers. Just tell them that you need to profit on merchandise that you sell in your store. And if you can't compete at those price points, practice more cost discipline and supply-chain management.

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Zombini
December 22, 2008 11:59 PM
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@ADismalScience:


Because that'd make sense, that's why. This is exactly how I feel about the store I work for. They sell laptops for stupid prices, advertise them in the newspapers, and then we get the hassle when people come in to buy just the laptop.


And what's said about the services is true. The average in store service takes maybe ten minutes for a technician to do, and makes the company a huge amount of profit. And yes, we're pushed to sell them. So why not just include the service, and all the fancy extras, crank up the price and only advertise the product at that increased price? It wouldn't be illegal if the product was only ever advertised at that one price.


Sure, people would walk out when they found out they couldn't buy the computer on its own with no extras, but if the company's to be believed, they make so little money on a computer without extras that it's not worth them selling it. Oh, right, that's why - it's so they can blame the sales staff for not cramming products down the buyers throats.

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BeyondtheTech
December 22, 2008 4:52 PM
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Doesn't Windows ask you for some registration and other initial information, such as Name and Organization and what the name of the users who will be on the machine?

One thing I would hate is to have a user profile called \"Staples Customer\" and have to go to C:\\Documents and Settings\\Staples Customer\\My Documents...

All future programs installed would be registered or franked with the information this stupid service would have installed, too.

Registered to \"Thanks for the unnecessary cash, sucker.\"

I thought one important point of buying some brand new tech toy is being able to experience the unpackaging and initial power-on, to see and do everything for yourself. Call me a geek, but that's my moment. Leave it alone, Staples.

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theyvegone2plaid
November 18, 2009 4:52 PM
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@BeyondtheTech: Any of these services are applied only after the customer purchases the device and agrees to having the service performed on their machine, in the case of the stores that did it beforehand that is a huge violation in policy and is not standard practice because I used to work as a tech for Staples so I know exactly what the policy is. What they did is wrong and is not practiced at the store I am employed at. This may have only been practiced in that district or even only in that store. As for the associates pushing the services, it's just part of their job don't chew them out for that they're just doing what they're paid to do and not get chewed out by their manager for not at least trying to sell the services to every customer that purchases a qualifying product.

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oneandone
December 23, 2008 6:33 PM
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@beyondthetech: Definitely agree with the thrill of unpacking it and setting it up so it's just for you. I'm from a tech-heavy household and while it was nice building computers together, it later got *so* annoying using shared computers when files were moved around, settings changed, some things got backed up and some didn't, etc. I got my own laptop, just for me, a few years ago and it was such a thrill being able to set things up exactly how I wanted to - and tinker for quite a few hours on it.


BTW, I got mine directly from Lenovo - didn't find too much bloatware. Is this something that happens when laptops are on their way to certain retailers, or does Lenovo just not do it the same way HP/Dell/etc seem to?

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FredSmythe
December 22, 2008 8:45 PM
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@beyondthetech: This happened to me when I bought a new car a couple months ago. The salesman told me that when I came in to take delivery he would sit down and program the clock and set all of my radio stations and configure the automatic locks and get it all just how I wanted it. I told him not to touch a thing, that I wanted to do all of that myself, and he actually fought me on it...I guess Honda makes them do that. So I told him I would be happy to sign off on the little form that confirmed that he did all of that, but that he wasn't going to be doing it, period. He didn't like that too much (probably because this was just after I told him I wouldn't be buying the Tailpipe Sealant and Tire Rim Job) but that's what ended up happening.

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techstar25
December 22, 2008 4:53 PM
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So they rip open the box, let some 17-year-old unqualified, minimum wage \"technician\" tinker with it. Then they put it back in the box, tape it up and try to sell it to you. Wait, doesn't that make it used?
I bought a laptop from Circuit City, and the salesman, uh sales-kid, tried to sell me on the set up. It actually took him a while to find one that wasn't \"set up\" already.
The computer had Vista on it so it must be an easy sell, being that Vista has such a bad reputation. But I told him \"No thanks. I'll set it up when I get home.\" And by setting up, I meant I'll wipe the HDD and install XP.

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 5:33 PM
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@techstar25:

You know, at sixteen I was stuck working minimum wage at best buy and yet still had the skills to run rings around my manager when it came to any actual problems on the computers that caame in (nonwithstanding the fact that we usually were required to just wipe the hdd anyway).

Don't hate on someone for their age.

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unobservant
December 22, 2008 4:59 PM
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Have you kids not ever been to Best Buy? They try this business all the time. ESPECIALLY if you're a chick.

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Rubleaux
December 22, 2008 10:35 PM
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@unobservant: Best Buy associates tried to get me with that scam just last week. Their service would have added an additional $150 to to computer that I was going to purchase. I may not be the brightest star in the constellation, but I am far from stupid.

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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed
December 22, 2008 5:06 PM
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@unobservant: Hahaha...sounds like my wife's experiences at BB and Tweeter.


Once, she actually told this guy (the third salesman to \"help\" her in 5 minutes) that they could EITHER hit on her OR sell her extra services, not both.

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segfault
December 22, 2008 5:08 PM
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There is a Honda dealer nearby that puts \"paint protection,\" a spoiler, pinstriping, mudflaps, wheel locks, etc. on all of their stock, along with an add-on sticker for that crap. This is no different.

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 5:19 PM
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I've bought several laptops from Staples in the last few weeks I was offered the \"Set Up\" and I told them I didn't want the service and the sales person didn't ask me again could be they where just trying to explain it to your mom and she might of felt that they where pressuring her in buying it! It might be a basic service to us geeks but a lot of people aren't really computer literate.

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GMFish
December 22, 2008 5:21 PM
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I went with a friend to Best Buy to buy a laptop that was on sale. The local Best Buy had it in stock but the sales person tried the same scam and refused to sell it unless my friend paid the \"set up\" and security update costs that were well over a hundred bucks.

And people wonder why we need strong consumer protection laws.

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FreshFocus
December 22, 2008 5:26 PM
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@GMFish:

Was a manager brought into the situation? Or the district manager?

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FreshFocus
December 22, 2008 5:31 PM
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I've read all these comments and do not feel sorry for the people that tolerate being treated this way, or take the \"sales persons\" word that it has to be bought this way.

The reasons why corporations do this is because we, as a consumer, allow them to. It is completely within our power to stop this nonsense and nip it in the bud.

Stick up for yourself! Consumer protections laws are only good if they are enforced. And I haven't never seen anyone in any B&M store protecting consumers. Call the companies corporate office. Send an EECB. Post it on your blog and link it to hell and back. But get the word out and show the corporations that you will not tolerate this crap.

We are not helpless consumers. If we are not at the retail outlets because of poor treatment or bait and switch, bad reputation, etc., businesses FAIL. Let them fail if they do not know how to treat their customers.

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NotATool
December 22, 2008 7:13 PM
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@FreshFocus: \"If we are not at the retail outlets because of poor treatment or bait and switch, bad reputation, etc., businesses FAIL. Let them fail if they do not know how to treat their customers. \"


Yeah, unless they're GM and the gov't bails them out despite their poor performance.

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Urgleglurk
December 22, 2008 5:40 PM
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segfault: Actually there is a difference. Many people can install their own software, create backup disks, etc. Most people can't pinstripe their own cars, add paint protection (unless this is just waxing the car), etc.
Either way, it's b.s.to advertise one price and have NOTHING on hand at that price.

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dreamsneverend
December 22, 2008 5:41 PM
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The only thing that sucks is this one store didn't have any unopened/un \"set up\" machines. I would have called the next closest store and asked if they had that option in stock, if not.. no sale.

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catastrophegirl chooses not to fly
December 22, 2008 5:49 PM
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@rainmkr: i would have asked the cashier for the number of the next closest store and called them from my cell phone while leaning on their counter.
and if they were being extra rude and stupid to me i'd make sure to repeat, loudly, \"oh, it's NOT policy to 'set-up' your entire stock? you DO keep some on hand for the advertised price? and your store is located at [address]? thanks, i'll be right over\"

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:48 PM
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@catastrophegirl: Funny thing is that I'm pretty sure it's not policy to set up machines beforehand (unless asked), maybe a display model, but not regular stock. My guess is that a manager cracked under the pressure of the newly combined EasyTech and ESP numbers and tried to pull a fast one.

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catastrophegirl chooses not to fly
December 23, 2008 12:26 AM
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@Pandrogas: oh i'm sure it's not policy. which is why i'd want to point that out to all the other customers and publicly embarass that store.

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:49 PM
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@Pandrogas: And by funny, I mean not really funny haha, funny as in I've never really seen it done because usually nobody has time to set stuff up without demand for it.

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rrrebo
December 22, 2008 5:55 PM
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A few years ago I went to Circuit City at 0400 on Black Friday to try for the $300 laptop for my wife. I didn't get it, but I went in and decided on an Acer for about $650. I went inside, got in line, waited almost 2 hours, got my free WiFi router, case, and declined the crappy anti-virus software they were giving away.

When it was my turn, I asked for the laptop in question.

CC: \"We don't have any of those in stock.\"
Me: There's 4 of them in the box, right there.\"(points to the cage under the display 3 feet away)
CC: \"Hmm, let me check the computer again.\" (tap tap tappity tap *pause*)
Me: \"Can't you just unlock the cage and give me one of those, RIGHT THERE?\"
CC (now a manager has come over): \"Ah, here we go. Those are already set up and pre-loaded with a software bundle including X, Y, and Z. It's $140.00 for the software and installation.\"
Me: \"I don't want or need any of that extra stuff. Take it off and give me the advertised shelf price.\"
CC Mgr: \"So you want me to eat the cost of having a worker install, then UNinstall the software? No, I'm sorry, I can't do that.\"
Me: \"Seriously?!? You're going to ditch a $650 sale on an item that's NOT your Black Friday loss-leader because you can't stand to part with the $4.50 it'll cost you to pay your employee 30 minutes to uninstall this crapware nobody wants? I waited 2 hours for THIS?\"

I shoved the router and case into his hands and left. Jackhole. \"Firedog,\" indeed.

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 6:00 PM
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I bought a toshiba laptop from best buy (only place it was sold), and was told that an extra $40 charge is required cause the laptop was optimized, when i asked for a non-optimized version they i was told they do not have them. The \"optimization\" was nothing more then geeksquad's gotomypc install. I got home and uninstalled it immediately. It just makes me so angry that they can get away with it.

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pmcpa2
December 22, 2008 6:08 PM
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I was there yesterday, saw a guy selling a little lady the recovery disk service. $60. I said in a normal voice, so the salesman could hear, \"You can do that yourself for free mam when you turn on the computer. It will ask you to do it.\" She said, that was the last straw, and yelled at the \"tech\" saying he kept lying to her, and she left the store. The tech hid in the staff room, and I paid for my paper and left, happy that I helped someone out!

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 6:09 PM
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I currently work at staples, and we only do the \"set up\" if the customer wants it. Half the time, they don't, and we don't push it. Most of us agree it's a ridiculous price for an fake \"service\" anyways.

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revmatty
December 22, 2008 6:28 PM
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I would demand to get an open-box discount. Does this even legally qualify as 'new' anymore now that the store has opened the box and broken the seal on the software license agreement?

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hardtoremember
December 22, 2008 6:28 PM
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I just go some place else when this stuff happens.

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johnfrombrooklyn
December 22, 2008 6:37 PM
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A lot of people forget that computers are like fruit. They're perishable. When you buy a computer from a store like Best Buy or Staples, you're buying a computer that was probably built 3 months earlier. By the time it was built in China, put on a boat, sent to a distribution center, and then finally put on the shelves at your local retailer, Microsoft has already released 2 updates and half your programs are out of date. If you can't buy a computer from a local place that will build it for you, then at least buy it online where the turnaround time is just a week or two.

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:44 PM
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@johnfrombrooklyn: Holy crap get some lemon juice for this poor PC!


It's software, it updates just fine. If it doesn't, then whip out the restore disk and start over.


The fruit analogy would have probably been better applied to hardware, but even that doesn't stand up so well given how well hardware usually stands up over time as compared to fruit.

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Pink Puppet
December 22, 2008 8:36 PM
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@johnfrombrooklyn: ...what?

You can update your fruit after it spoils so it is edible? Is that what I'm supposed to get out of this?

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logicalnoise
December 22, 2008 6:50 PM
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I just \"set up\" a computer for someone here at work. I removed norton and installed the comapanies unlimited symantec license updated vista and set up their router for them. 60 bucks with a promise of post support if the router gets messed up. bad deal from staples.

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bastkitty
December 22, 2008 7:05 PM
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@techstar25: I went to Circuit City last week with my grandmother to get her a new computer since they had a pretty good sale price on the one she wanted. I insisted she go while i was there because i knew they would try to screw her because she is older. The dumbass sales clerk tried to sell us on a $40 setup to \"clear off all the demo programs and clean the registry\". I said i could go home and do it for her and he got real shitty with us. The sales guy asked if i could get it all off the registry and i said yes, i could run CCleaner by myself. When we got the computer home, there wasn't any actual demo programs on it. What a hassle.

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whuffo
December 22, 2008 7:08 PM
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This kind of BS is common at Staples. I was in the market for a new desk chair a month ago and Staples had just the right thing on sale.

Of course, they'll unbox and assemble it for you for a small $30 charge. And what do you know - they've already unboxed and assembled every single one in stock.

The second Staples I went to had the same situation but I was able to convince them that I didn't want it assembled and they backed that extra charge out.

Selling merchandise: OK. Selling services: OK. Selling merchandise that includes a mandatory \"optional\" service: Not OK.

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mantari
December 22, 2008 7:26 PM
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Do they wipe and reimage the display models before selling them? Because if you're buying a display model, who knows what kind of messing around has been done to it after it was set up and put out on the floor. I'd be interested to know if they restore the machines to a clean state before pushing them out the door.

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:40 PM
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@mantari: I know Staple's policy is to do a full wipe, reinstall, and if there's time, Windows updates for any machine bought as a display. Not sure about other stores, but I would imagine that's the goal.

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endless
December 23, 2008 3:21 AM
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@Pandrogas:

best buy uses a program (archie) that really locks down the computer.

you can get rid of it by a full wipe, or if you have an archie disk.

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midwestkel
December 22, 2008 7:33 PM
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Stores should not be allowed to open product and set it up. If I want a brand new whatever it should not be opened by the store to do anything to it.

I am pretty sure this helps them with open box products. Some one could by a product and return it then the store says they set it up by restoring the manufacturers software update windows then turn around and sell it as new plus an extra fee!!!!

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sega8800
December 22, 2008 7:48 PM
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there should be laws on what software computer makers can put on the pc and what can't be put on the pc. save me some time for having to format my laptop when i first get it.

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:38 PM
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@sega8800: But that would take away from all the niche industries springing up to help you get rid of all that stuff...


You're right, it's crap that they put that stuff on, but I don't see them stopping. Besides, if the law gets involved in what can and cannot be installed on a machine that's just going to get ten times worse. You think EULA's are bad now...

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 8:23 PM
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If this service were offered as an option rather than being forced, I could see it being better recieved. However, it shouldn't be $80 (more like $30) and probably would be better to:
- Set up the initial installation
- Set up the user
- Create restore disks (honestly, partitions do you no good if the HD fails)
- Remove or disable large portions of the built in HP crapware
- Maybe install Spybot or Ad-Aware for the user
- Do Windows updates


I know people who would love all of that, though I'm sure they would rather have the option instead of it already being done.

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pegr
December 22, 2008 8:58 PM
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Um, doesn't this effectively kill the \"click-thru\" shrinkwrap license? I don't think a shrinkwrap license is legal to begin with, but if I don't even get a change to click \"I agree\", who could argue that it has any legitimacy at that point?

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endless
December 23, 2008 6:46 AM
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@pegr:

from experience at best buy, when you do a setup you have to sign a pre setup form which has a bunch of legal talk saying you agree to BB agreeing to all of the EULAs.

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MooseOfReason
December 22, 2008 9:05 PM
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My Dell laptop came with a Vista reinstallation disc.

What holy grail of an operating system did that HP Tablet come with that it costs an extra $80?

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Justinh6
December 22, 2008 9:17 PM
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Now I remember why I refuse to buy anything at stores anymore.

I'd rather get it direct from dell, and cut out all the nonsense at these stores.

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Outrun1986
December 22, 2008 9:21 PM
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I would suggest if anyone is looking for a pre-built from the store Laptop or Desktop that you head to Sams Club, especially around back to school time. They have stacks of them on the floor, you can just take the box, put it in your cart and your off to the register to pay for it. In fact you can do that with pretty much anything at Sams except for Ipods and certain other small electronics. Its not uncommon to see people walking around carrying laptop boxes. None of this crap about taking 60 min to get the computer out of lockup or all this crap about oh we have 4 computers that are already set up and none in stock that aren't. You will get asked to buy a warranty at the register but its about as hassle free as you can get.

Either that or your better off going online to buy your computer. There are other wholesale clubs that may have similar set ups too.

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Pandrogas
December 22, 2008 9:36 PM
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@Outrun1986: Assuming you want to pay for the membership, sure. Otherwise, getting a system online, maybe through NewEgg or TigerDirect makes about as much sense.

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HogwartsAlum
December 22, 2008 9:46 PM
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When I bought my Toshiba at Circuit City, it was in the box. All I had to do was open it and turn it on. The Toshiba crap that was on it I took off myself. They didn't even ask me about any kind of a setup. I did have Firedog come and set up my router, because I had NO IDEA how to do it. I know now, so it was worth it and I won't have to do it again.

I bought a desktop once from a local store that builds systems and it lasted for seven years, with a three-year in-store warranty. It had to be fixed a couple of times, but it was a tough little dude. I would have bought again from them this time, but they are kind of expensive.

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joshmoulton
December 22, 2008 9:51 PM
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I work at Geek Squad part-time, not some high school kid, been in IT for 4 years, just working there for extra cash and good laughs. My store only does maximum of 40% of specific models that we have. Never more than that. We install 1 year subscription of AV software on it, run Windows Updates and \"optimize\" it as well. Not sure what is included in optimizing because it's software developed by our Developers. On a side note, I never see salesman force someone to buy one like that. We set them up typically with username of \"Owner\" or \"User\" - That being said, the only computer manufacturer that sends Restore Discs with their computers are Toshiba and Dell. Dell has broke down and stopped sending with all models except their Studio laptops at this point in time I believe as well. It does take 2+ hours for HP being 3 DVD's total for creating them and Sony takes 2 DVD's. Continue bashing.

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r12ski
December 22, 2008 10:40 PM
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I've never experienced this. Oh that's right I have a Mac.

Begin flame…

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TechnoDestructo
December 22, 2008 10:49 PM
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@r12ski:

Your extra bullshit fee is built into the price.

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TheSpatulaOfLove
December 23, 2008 6:16 AM
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@TechnoDestructo:

Yet, we Mac users don't have to spend hours decrapifying a machine just to use it.

That, and I've not had to format and reinstall AT ALL the past two years of ownership - and that's even going to the dark side of the internet regularly...

Bitch about the price all you want, but I have saved much more time using a Mac than a PC - and my time and sanity is worth much more than the few hundred dollars I would have 'saved'.

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TechnoDestructo
December 22, 2008 10:48 PM
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So what's the difference between a bullshit fee at Staples one from an airline?

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XianZhuXuande
December 22, 2008 11:14 PM
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Illegal in California to require payment. Demand that you receive the product less the unadvertised fees. It is the policy of companies like Best Buy to wave the fees and give you the software if you demand it, there-but YMMV depending on management.

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XTC46
December 22, 2008 11:14 PM
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@BigPapaCherry and the Snowtunes: Uilding a tablet is possible, and eas. Its just a lot more expensive than buying one.

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planetdaddy
December 22, 2008 11:19 PM
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More hardhitting journalism. A company trying to upsell customers and maximize their profits. Someone should be punished for this. Call the Attorney General, fire off emails to corporate. Go crazy!

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sinfonian94
December 22, 2008 11:48 PM
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@planetdaddy: Actually, someone SHOULD be punished. These tactics are actually AGAINST THE LAW.

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VicMatson
December 22, 2008 11:25 PM
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If it's \"set up\" isn't the laptop then used? Don't get me wrong, I don't like clamshells, but new is new as in untouched by all geeky kids.

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PølάrβǽЯ
December 22, 2008 11:37 PM
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Sounds like bait & switch to me. I'd report it to the state AG and BBB.

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b612markt
December 22, 2008 11:43 PM
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The first true joy of switching from PC to MAC was when I thought I had to \"optimize\" and \"de-crapify\" it when it was new. To my SHOCK, there was no worthless third party junk in it and no need to do a bare-bones re-install (like I usually did with my XP machines.)

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jwissick
December 22, 2008 11:52 PM
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@b612markt: You got that right. No lame copies of 'games' that no one ever plays. No '30 day anti-virus' crap. No 10 gigs of wasted drive space taken up by trial ware.

PCs sucks.

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AgentTuttle
December 23, 2008 12:37 AM
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Fargo: They install that Truecoat at the factory. [video.google.com]

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Anonymous
December 23, 2008 1:42 AM
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I worked at Staples for almost two years as an \"electronics lead\" heading up the electronics department and have never heard of anything like this and when i was with them it was their policy to leave all computers other than display models unopened. In fact the manager would usually discount anything that had been opened even if the pc was never touched or booted. This sounds like a scam the management at that store drummed up. Even when the store was losing money my manager would bend over backwards for customer satisfaction even when it cost the store. The more shopping I do and the more I read this site the more I realize the store i worked at was 1 in a million.

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futonrevolutionary
December 23, 2008 7:01 AM
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I would never trust a computer that someone else \"set up\" for me. Not only is it a waste of money, but you don't know if they're installing keyloggers or other spyware. With the epidemic of porn-stealing and other unsavory activities among Geek Squad shops, I wouldn't rule it out.

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Dale Epic Morgan Esq.
December 23, 2008 8:40 AM
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I can't speak for Staples, because I've never worked there. As someone who has optimized new PCs on behalf of GeekSquad, I can say that there's a bit more to just running updates and completing the Vista Setup. It has to do with going in and removing useless startup programs, services, trials, and other bloatware. GeekSquad uses their own software called Customizer to do it and it works very well.

And, GS only charges $29 to optimize the computers. It's $59 if you want a disc backup as well.

Tax Free weekend was coming up for us and we optimized about half of our computer inventory to show customers that, for the extra fee, they can get a computer that's literally ready to go right out of the box. If they wanted a model where we only had optimized computers left and didn't want the optimization, we'd give them the optimized ones for no extra cost because we aren't dicks who violate advertising laws.

As for those saying it should be free or that it's really simple: labor costs money. People do not work at the GeekSquad for free and they get paid for their time. Charging people for services is how these employees get paid and $29 is much at all considering it's also backed by a 30 day warranty.

Also, I know nothing about cars. Sure, I could save tons of money if I tuned it up myself, but I don't have the time or the patience for something like that. Instead, I'll pay for someone else to do it.

Likewise, I know how to optimize a laptop myself and wouldn't benefit from getting an optimization. But for those who are completely oblivious to computers, it's a pretty good deal.

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Dale Epic Morgan Esq.
December 23, 2008 8:42 AM
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@Dale Epic Morgan Esq.: $29 is NOT much at all. Sorry, lack of edit button sucks.

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jrizos
December 23, 2008 3:54 PM
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This sounds like a very legitimate service that would help a lot of casual PC users. It's a shame that they made it so shady, as folks are already so hostile to added superfluous costs on electronics.

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BernardFantaztical
December 23, 2008 4:59 PM
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First of all, there are thousands of people who would (and do) pay extra to have their computer ready-to-use when they get home, no fuss.Secondly, the word \"forced\" is horrendously overused in this article and its comments. Nobody FORCES you to buy anything, extra services, a warranty, anything. If you don't want to buy it, don't, or leave. If you let somebody \"force\" you into something, that's your own fault. End of story.

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Zeniq
December 23, 2008 9:47 PM
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The Best Buy where I used to work does this. They pre-optimize about 20% of the stock, because some people do like to buy the optimization services, and that way, you can just walk out with an already optimized computer, no wait, the same as if you bought a sealed laptop.

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Erin Dowe
January 23, 2009 5:46 AM
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I bought a laptop from Staples this summer. I didn't need anything fancy, just a decent one for word processing and general internet use. It cost $700 on sale. The department manager came over and tried to sell me a $200 damage policy to cover the screen. I told him I'd take my chances, since my laptop wouldn't be traveling anywhere. He tried to overcome my objections, and eventually resorted to huffing \"Well I'll see you in a month when your screen breaks and you need a new computer.\" What an ass!

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Anonymous
March 9, 2009 6:56 AM
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@Erin Dowe: The manager handled it poorly but he did have a huge point that, as someone who works for Staples I find very irritating about customers.All the time I get customers who turn down the support plan on a computer, they are informed (more than once) of the return policy for electronics (14 days) it is also printed on the back of the receipt, they give you a \"that's fine I'll take my chances\" or \"the manufacturer's warranty is a year right?\" Then, a few months later, (sometimes nutcases even nearly a year later) they show up in the store expecting us to do something about it for them (at no charge) and get irate with us because we refuse to. It was -their- decision not to purchase the service plan. It was -their- decision to go with only the manufacturer's warranty (which alot of the time they say that they haven't contacted them because \"it's a pain in the ass\" or they say they have and \"they were told to bring it to the store\" (which almost no support rep for any company does or is supposed to do).

If you don't want to spend the money on the service, that's fine, but don't get angry at the employees or the company for being made to deal with the consequences of a decision that was your own.
A customer purchases a computer (with nothing else) from almost any retailer, that retailer makes nothing off of selling that product. They can't afford to provide free tech support and repair services for said product as well and remain in business.

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actuatedpoodle
April 11, 2010 10:11 PM
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If the store actually said that \"set-up\" means a recovery CD is included, then the opposite would mean that it is not, which means the store is violating the Microsoft software license of every CD they keep. Each consumer system comes with a hard copy of the OS and those that do not are illegal. Considering software piracy laws both civil and criminal, Staples could be put out of business if this practice is the norm.

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