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negative-ground

December 10, 2008 4:23 PM

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FierNO.

1 replies

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December 11, 2008 10:01 PM

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@negative-ground: The Fiero was a prime example of GM doing what GM does best: fuck up a potentially good idea. The Fiero was originally intended to be a commuter car (it was coded \"2M4\"to denote a 4 cylinder 2-seater): small size and engine for fuel efficiency, re-used x-car parts to ensure low cost and ease of part replacement, plastic body panels for same and to ward off parking warts, sized for two plus a briefcase and just enough performance to make the journey not so boring. In a way, it was a SMART car on a budget.

Unfortunately, the car magazines - because it was mid engined - tested it against performance cars such as the MR2 and others. Of course it never stood a chance against dedicated machinery and instead of GM proving that it was really just for bread and butter driving, they tacked on increasingly bigger engines, bigger wheels and useless interior upgrades until it was the same cost as a TransAm/Firebird but with 1/10th the space. Of course it was killed off.

There are many examples of people turning their Fieros into electric vehicles, and if they'd stuck to their original designs, it - and derivatives - would probably have been a big money maker during the recent oil crisis.

On the subject of GM quality, you can't easily get past the reportedly $6k per car GM must pay to keep its workers happily retired, but we've had nothing but really great experiences in my family with their cars. My dad has had two customised Chevrolet vans over the years, and even after rolling odometers on both, they've neer given him a moment's difficulty (which you couldn't say for the VW van we previously owned, which left us stranded umpteen times and smelling of exhaust fumes and ears ringing once you'd gotten to your destination).

For every bad GM experience you tell me, I'll bet I have 5 personal Audi and Mazda ones to compare against.

","

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December 10, 2008 4:24 PM

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In 1995, after years of Toyota ownership, my father thought he'd give GM a chance. Bought an Olds 88. Two years later, he lost his shirt on it in a trade in and that was the happiest day of his life. He got a simple Honda Odyssey that was dead-reliable for 10 years, a car he never questioned would take care of him. Screw GM. No apology can make up for what they've done.

6 replies

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December 11, 2008 1:23 AM

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@pb5000: My mom's 2002 Odyssey had transmission problems at 75K...but it was covered under extended warranty I think. It's had a few minor problems as well...but I suppose those are more or less expected on any car. On the other hand, the transmission problem is an epidemic on that gen of Odysseys...I've gotten the impression that Hondas are rather overrated. No vehicle model should have the transmissions crap out like they do on the Odysseys.

On the other hand, let me say that (aside from cheap-ish interior/door build quality) my Pontiac Vibe has been GREAT to me....oh wait, it's actually a Toyota. :)

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Xanaxian

December 10, 2008 6:46 PM

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@CyrusOpeth: Common experience, apparently! My own father once made the mistake of being patriotic and bought a new 1978 Buick Regal he could hardly give away 2 years later. He's had nothing but Toyotas since, and has been very happy with every one. Personally, I ride a bicycle that's never let me down.

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johnnya2

December 11, 2008 4:53 AM

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@Xanaxian: Nice that something that happened 30 years ago seems to matter to you. You still mad they took off I love Lucy and wont watch CBS because of it?

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December 11, 2008 12:55 AM

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@Xanaxian: Well, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. I don't think anyone is saying that ALL GM cars are bad, just that there's a higher rate of defective products in the GM line than in the Toyota or Honda lines. And even when there is a defect with a Toyota or Honda, they are usually (not always) better at handling it and taking care of the customer than GM is.

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December 11, 2008 12:57 AM

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@FightOnTrojans: That's supposed to be in reply to \"dorastandpipe\" not \"Xanaxian.\" Curse my itchy trigger finger!

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December 10, 2008 9:09 PM

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@Xanaxian:
I don't think it is just the car, it could have owner/user issues as well. My parents have a 1999 Chevy Tahoe (GM car) that has 360K miles on it. IF all GM cars are so crappy...how in the heck did theirs hit so many miles and is STILL GOING????

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reefer

December 11, 2008 4:56 PM

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@dorastandpipe: His dad went and bought a mini van... doesn't sound like much of an enthusiast to me.

You take care of the car, it will take care of you. I've had Camaro's easily go over 100k without needing anything more than a water pump or alternator(which are extremely easy to get to and fix yourself).

Now I have a Lexus(toyota) that has been dead reliable but it's next to impossible to work on the thing! Time will tell I guess....

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Optimistic Prime

December 11, 2008 12:17 AM

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@dorastandpipe: I agree it could be owner problems, but I'd also guess the Tahoe had more care put into it's assembly than GM's cars did at that time.

Not to be a complete smart ass either, but it's an Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve, EGR, not ERG. Though not mentioned, but frequently butchered is the Positive Crankcase Ventilation valve, not PVC valve... /end rant.

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December 10, 2008 9:51 PM

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@dorastandpipe: After how many major repairs?

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pb5000

December 10, 2008 5:16 PM

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@CyrusOpeth: Here is another one: I have a 2001 Odyssey which has been a great car.

Except for two problems, the transmission and the ERG valve.
However, both were covered for me because Honda recognized that there was a problem and took care of them at little cost to me. The trans was completely free and the ERG problem happened when I was over the mileage cut off, I called Honda and asked for a good faith warranty extension which was granted and they paid 75% of the cost leaving my expense at around $50.

I'm going to stick with Honda now because I know I'll get a dependable car that the company stands behind.

","

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December 10, 2008 4:28 PM

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In the early years of GM's existence, they spent a LOT of money buying trolley and light rail systems...and shutting them down. This obviously forced people to buy cars and encouraged urban sprawl, drive thrus, pollution, suburbia, etc. FUCK THEM IN THEIR STUPID ASSES.

5 replies

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December 11, 2008 4:38 AM

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@pigbearpug: I doubt that anyone involved with those decisions is still working there. Just to be fair.

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December 11, 2008 9:42 PM

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@Dansc29625: The practice of business has much less to do with people than corporate culture. I fail to see any evidence that they would behave any differently given their current leadership; their contemporary sins against quality of life, while not as evident, are just as potent.

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pb5000

December 10, 2008 5:19 PM

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@pigbearpug: Detroit has no reliable public transportation system either and I always assumed it was the influence of the big 3. Detroit has a crappy bus line that barely services the suburbs and the people-mover downtown only serves as a warm place for the city's homeless population during the winter.

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LatherRinseRepeat

December 10, 2008 4:34 PM

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Exactly. Apparently, Los Angeles had a very good trolley system back then. But GM shut that down quickly.

[en.wikipedia.org]

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cabjf

December 10, 2008 6:09 PM

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@LatherRinseRepeat: Yeah, stupid Cloverleaf Industries, uh, I mean GM!

[en.wikipedia.org]

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:21 PM

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@cabjf: Nice reference.

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December 10, 2008 6:47 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: That's where they got the idea! They must have one of those black hole things to throw money and good ideas in, too.

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K J

December 10, 2008 4:28 PM

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Let' em go bankrupt.

6 replies

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December 10, 2008 4:54 PM

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@K J: Yes, because the United States could really use an extra 3 million unemployed people right now.

I don't think most sane people disagree that there needs to be some massive change in how the 'big three' operate...but a blanket dismissive like \"Let' em go bankrupt\" hardly seems to be helpful.

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December 11, 2008 2:36 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: There are a few possibilities...either

1) There's not enough demand for the number of vehicles needed to keep the 3 million (playing along w/your number) jobs around without subsidies

2) There is demand which would mean that if GM went kaput, another company would have to pick up their slack, and would likely rehire people at sustainable wages...much in the same way that Toyota has bought abandoned plants from the Detroit guys in the past, and rehired people.

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Optimistic Prime

December 11, 2008 12:22 AM

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@Jeremiah1977: As bad as I feel for anyone who loses their job, I can't feel bad for the ass-hats who've run the big 3 into the ground. Also, it's a basic economic principle that bad businesses die out and are replaced by businesses that can succeed. If I were dying of a terrible disease, I'd rather let nature run it's course than try to live a lousy extra year or two that's just miserable and over-taxing on my family.

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December 10, 2008 6:42 PM

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I hate that people are throwing around that number. Bankrupcy will not cost 3 million jobs. I would be shocked if it cost 100,000 jobs. Chapter 11 does not equal closing down.

Chapter 11 is designed to help a failing business turn around by releasing some of it's obligation to debts. The idea that a multi billion dollar industry is going under is ignorant. Some plants may close, and unfortunately many may lose their jobs, but this would be far from a catastrophic event.

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Beerad

December 10, 2008 8:10 PM

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@woogychuck: Chapter 11 would be the death knell for any car company. A lot of the business is in after-purchase vehicle servicing, and very few people will buy a car if there's a chance that the manufacturer/dealer will go out of business because there won't be servicing available.

@Swizzler121: \"it's not like there's not another job out there\". Uh, really? Been reading the news much lately? And exactly where are these trained auto workers supposed to get a job, anyway? Car sales are down everywhere, so it's not like they can waltz into a Toyota plant (or move cross-country to one, perhaps) and pick up a job application.

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December 11, 2008 4:49 AM

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@Beerad: I hate the keep 'em workin' argument. Plants close and open all the time. In SC I drive by 4 plants on my way to work. One of them being a tire plant. I feel like the south will get the short end of the stick on this bailout deal.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:40 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: Take the bailout money and INVEST in infrastructure, construction, etc.
Those 3 million people AND MANY MANY OTHERS who are currently unemployed will suddenly have jobs they can do that need filling.
We spent the last 2 years complaining how our bridges and roads suck and need maintenance, and we finally have a workforce who is available to do it, we just need FUNDING!
OMG what a convenience!

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December 10, 2008 5:14 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: I guarantee you that most employees will jump ship anyway, bailout or not, it's not like there's not another job out there, and machines do most the work on cars now anyway, whoopie...

","

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December 10, 2008 4:29 PM

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Yeh, I agree.

They should die if only for what they did to the EV1. No foresight. They would have been in the catbird seat, instead Toyota with its Prius.

6 replies

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jimconsumer

December 12, 2008 7:45 PM

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@radiochief: Maybe, maybe not. Remember, the EV1 was very expensive to make. GM lost tens of thousands on every sale. Accurate, real world list price for that car at the time would have been in excess of $100k. Today, they could still make it, but you'd have to pay $50k for one. Everyone likes to harp on companies for not selling electric cars, but good batteries are so expensive nobody is willing to pay what it really costs to drive one. It's a catch-22.

Note, I am not defending GM, exactly. I think they are evil and should suffer the fruits of their own folly. No way in hell should we bail them out. But we will, whether we like it or not, you understand. This bailout will happen. The politicians are no longer accountable to the people and they know it.

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jimconsumer

December 12, 2008 7:45 PM

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@jimconsumer: edit, I should have said GM lost tens of thousands on every \"lease\" .. obviously they never sold the EV1 to anybody.

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December 11, 2008 5:00 AM

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@radiochief: If you like you can convert a production car to electric, provided you have an extra 50 grand laying around.

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johnnya2

December 11, 2008 4:56 AM

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@radiochief: Guess who funded the development of the Prius? The Japanese government. Some governments are forward thinking, while US politicians think in election cycles for their party. Nobody cars about whats right, only what keeps them elected

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Kay Bee

December 10, 2008 11:54 PM

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@radiochief: nooo 'who killed the ev-1'... GM, bring it back and I might petition for you...

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bmorg003

December 10, 2008 10:18 PM

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@radiochief: I would guess that you've seen \"Who killed the electric car?\" It is a great movie that everyone should see, and I agree that they dug their own grave. If they actually built more production facilities here in the US (like the one Toyota just built in MS), then I might have a little more sympathy... They will probably get bailed out anyway, and they probably deserve it more than Wall Street (who put us in this mess), but I still don't like it.

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Anonymous

December 10, 2008 4:29 PM

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GM can and does make some great vehicles, they just need to make some changes in the way they do business. I have a Chevy S10 truck that is nearly 10 years old, and it has never given me a seconds problem, and still runs like it was brand new.

I'm not saying GM is perfect, but the stock opinion people have these days that all GM vehicles are garbage is just simply not true.

4 replies

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Hands

December 11, 2008 11:57 AM

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@SudakshimaChelios: Not that I hold a grudge or anything...in the 80's I had three Firebirds in a row. Loved that model. But I had ongoing problems with the third one and was treated so badly by the dealership and the regional office that I swore off GM forever. I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if they went under.

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Mary

December 10, 2008 5:44 PM

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@SudakshimaChelios: Thank you. My husband and his entire family have owned several Pontiacs that have worked better and lasted longer than almost any other car I've owned, foreign or otherwise.

Most people I know with trucks swear by Chevy over any other make.

They might not be perfect, but neither is Honda, as much as some people like to think so.

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cromartie

December 11, 2008 5:16 AM

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@Meiran: I'll chime in. I've put 170,000 miles on a 2004 Impala and never had a day's worth of problems beyond standard scheduled maintenance.

My previous Buick lasted 140k before needing an alternator.

The Oldsmobile Alero I was considerably less lucky with (wheel sensor problems) but beyond that issue, the only other major maintenance was a fuel sensor at 125k.

Certainly there are GM cars that are crap. But I've owned cars from every brand ecept Cadillac and, if I take care of them, they've taken care of me.

That's not to say that GM are angels, but the business is more the problem (especially that EV1 decision) than the bulk of the products.

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Erwos

December 10, 2008 5:48 PM

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@Meiran: Do Pontiacs not suck? I'm trying to convince the wife/myself to let me get a Solstice in a few years, but I've had some concerns about build quality. Nice to know.

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teexcue

December 11, 2008 8:08 AM

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@Erwos: Don't bother with the Solstice. In my opinion, go for an S2000. It's lighter, better handling, and it's like having a motorcycle engine in a car. If you want more power, look at a used 350Z. But this is what I mean, in no way is the Solstice a bad car, it's just that there are so many other better cars. So by comparison, it becomes a bad car because it can't compete with what the foreign automakers are delivering. With the exception of the Corvette and a couple of the high end Mustang models, the Not-So-Big 3 haven't produced a really exciting car in years. And when it comes down to it, I'll take an M3 over a Corvette any day.

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Mary

December 11, 2008 9:35 PM

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@teexcue: I've heard a lot of the pros and cons for those other cars, and I've test driven a few of them. The Solstice still wins for me, and it does in a lot of comparisons in the articles I've read feel that way as well.

The thing that kicks me over is often the price. The Solstice is VERY affordable of the car that it is. We paid about the same for my Civic as we did for the it.

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reefer

December 11, 2008 5:05 PM

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@teexcue: Thats your opinion, not fact.

The solstice is a beautiful well put together car... with USABLE power. Not everyone wants to rev to 9k to get the thing going like an S2000.

No exciting cars from the big 3 in recent years? The Ford GT, Chevy Corvette ZR1 and Z06, Chryslers 300C was a huge hit when it came out, as well as the charger. The new challenger looks great and has alot of good buzz about it as well as the new camaro and mustang coming down the pipe line as well.

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Mary

December 10, 2008 6:52 PM

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@Erwos: A Solstice is exactly what my husband drives right now, and we've loved absolutely every second of it. We've taken it on quite a few long trips, so the mileage is nothing to sneeze at but the only problem we've had is that it's really heartbreaking when it gets a ding.

Now, I'm obviously not an expert on cars at all, so I'm sure everyone's mileage will vary. But my husband and his family take very good care of their cars, and their Pontiacs have always taken very good care of them.

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December 10, 2008 6:01 PM

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@Erwos: The last time I had a Pontiac? Oh yeah. The last 2 GM cars I owned completely sucked. In college, I drove a Chevy Cavalier, which had repeated engine problems. Thank goodness I had warranty coverage - two engines replaced.

A couple of years after I'd graduated, I just figured I got a bad one. What I didn't know is that they're mostly bad ones. I had a 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix. What a clunker that turd was. The transmission about fell out of the silly thing, terrible fit & finish, radio never worked properly either (random volume increase to deafening volumes or decreases to utter silence).

I've driven nothing but Hondas or Toyotas ever since. While no car is completely problem-free, they've had minor issues, all of which were resolved quickly.

Most ironic, in my mind, is that my \"American\" cars, the Cavalier and Grand Prix were both built in Mexico. My \"Japanese\" cars, the Honda Accord I drove for several years, Civic I now drive, and my wife's Toyota Sienna were all built right here in the US, by American workers. Both Hondas were made in Ohio, and the Toyota was made in Kentucky.

Let these clowns go bankrupt. It's the best thing that could happen to them. Then they could re-negotiate union contracts, restructure the business to actually have potential to make a profit, etc. Kids, bankrupt does not mean \"ceases to exist.\" Look at the airlines, even the bankrupt ones are still flying. The currently seated auto execs want you to think it means, \"no more American cars\" because it means they will likely lose their jobs in the restructuring process. Really -- do you keep the CEO that took you into bankruptcy?

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Mary

December 10, 2008 6:57 PM

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@Floobtronics: My '97 Chevy Cavalier was one of the best cars I've seen. And my father-in-law's Grand Prix has never given them even a second of trouble.

I wonder which types of experience is actually the norm.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 7:06 PM

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@Meiran: See, initially when I went out to buy a car, I wanted a Cavalier because one of my friends had survived a wreck in one.
Then I heard of another friend whose engine mounting bolts sheared off while they were driving.
And then I actually drove one. Tin Can.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:23 PM

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@Floobtronics: I had a 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix.

I'm sorry. My mom had the '97 Grand Am, and yes, that model year had too many problems. Someone else we knew had that exact same radio problem in their Grand Prix as well.

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jimconsumer

December 12, 2008 7:48 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: We had a '97 Grand Am. We bought it brand new off the dealer lot. Never had a lick of trouble with it. It was a wonderful car. Traded it in for a brand new Mitsubishi SUV years later and the Mitsubishi just didn't last. I didn't have a lot of trouble, per se, it just wore out faster than I expected, lots of little things that made me unhappy with it.

","

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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed

December 10, 2008 4:30 PM

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Actually, I'm now MORE PISSED OFF AT THEM for admitting their screwups. They just acknowledged that tens of millions of Americans are driving sub-par vehicles? That's not going to be good for business.

You don't denigrate your old product in order to sell your new product.

4 replies

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December 10, 2008 6:11 PM

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@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: exactly. i want a refund for my 2004 gm vehicle (a saab 9-5 aero). what a total piece of junk.

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December 10, 2008 4:42 PM

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@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: I have the sinking feeling that the intention of this apology was as much. I think they want the government to take them over. It would give the stock a nice spike for all those incompetent board members to soften the blow to their holdings that this past year has seen. (or, if you're into conspiracy theories, to give the government a larger vested interest in another major industry to help secure a growing fascist coup. It's not my personal belief of the situation, but it's something I've been hearing a lot of recently.)

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Optimus

December 10, 2008 6:44 PM

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@dangermike: Yeah, unfortunately, in a society of extremes like ours, there is a tendency to shift to complete opposite sides of a position. We \"oppose communism at every turn,\" so we tend toward fascism because that is the extreme opposite.

This is why we need more than 2 parties to vote on: to stop people from taking extreme positions on everything. Though, admittedly, Obama's attempts at opening the governmental process are bearing some fruit. Let's hope it exposes the err that is the 2-party system.

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December 10, 2008 9:46 PM

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Communism and Fascism are very similar (at least in practice) - the political \"spectrum\" is really more of a circle.

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December 10, 2008 4:48 PM

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Stock wouldn't spike - any sort of government takeover would essentially wipe out equity holders.

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mobilene

December 10, 2008 4:31 PM

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I'll let them know when it's time for me to buy my next car.

1 replies

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December 10, 2008 5:38 PM

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@mobilene: Honda or Toyota?

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December 10, 2008 4:37 PM

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Ummm no they fail. I hope those SUVs have fold out beds, cause thats where alot of them are gonna be sleeping once they go belly up. No sympathy here for the terrible practices of these asshats. Im still waiting on my flying cars. WHERE THE F*CK ARE THEY GM?

4 replies

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December 10, 2008 4:54 PM

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@NeonNoodle: The Pontiac Aztec actually had a GM accessory that converted the rear hatch into a tent, and had fitted sleeping bags for the cargo area. Plus, the center storage bin between the two front seats was removable and insulated, so you could use it as a cooler. Too bad they're not making them anymore, it seems like a pretty good car to live out of. ...sigh, I still want one :(

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December 10, 2008 9:47 PM

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The other upside of living in the Aztek: if you're IN it, you don't have to look AT it!

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December 11, 2008 2:38 PM

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@JustThatGuy3: Wish I could digg you up!

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:52 PM

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@nataku83: I've slept in the back of my Elantra (wagon). With some padding its actually pretty comfy!

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December 11, 2008 8:53 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: Oooooh, I've done that too in my Elantra (wagon). It's fun!

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December 10, 2008 4:55 PM

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@nataku83: I mean Aztek, sorry

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Garbanzo

December 10, 2008 4:37 PM

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What incentive will there be for companies to make wise choices if they can run their businesses into the ground, say, \"Oops, sorry!\" and get a bail-out from the public?

4 replies

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docrice

December 10, 2008 5:53 PM

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@Garbanzo: to quote \"Boom Headshot\" Doug,
\"There's no respawn in RL (real life)\"

Game over. You lose, GM. And who the hell does Chrysler think they are? They got bailed out in the 80's and now they are asking for cash AGAIN? This is not a 3-strike thing, it's capitalism - evolve or die.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:24 PM

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@docrice: Well they can just spirit rez then.

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December 10, 2008 5:10 PM

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@Garbanzo: no, its not even the public anymore! we had NO say in this, we're more socialistic now than ever before, hey why don't we just throw up the hammer n' sickle now while we're at it!

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:51 PM

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@Swizzler121: And they were calling OBAMA a socialist....

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JeffM

December 10, 2008 9:01 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: Exact reason why I voted for Obama- with Republicans endorsing this manner of behavior what do I have to lose by voting blue?

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gggtur

December 10, 2008 4:37 PM

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I've never spent a dime on GM because they make inferior products. But now I am \"forced\" to give them money because they suck so bad? Doesn't make much sense. I want to buy American made cars, I really do. But I am primarily interested in quality, which cannot be found on GM cars.

4 replies

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xip

December 16, 2008 6:45 PM

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@gggtur:
You want to buy American-made cars? We you are in luck! The Japanese Big 3, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan, and manufacture cars in the US.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:50 PM

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@gggtur: My mom built her own Pontiac Grand Am in '97 and it was the best dealer experience ever (hell the salesman we dealt with had the same name as my dad, which was twilight zone almost). Until the maintenance problems started. Then it was a nightmare.

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Spaceboy

December 10, 2008 6:37 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese:

Or maybe the salesman was your dad and that's why it was such a good experience? Or maybe he would become your dad? Wink?

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 7:08 PM

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@Spaceboy: Um, no. LOL. No, they just both have a somewhat uncommon name.
My dad is named \"Leslie\" and the salesman's name was \"Lester\". But both would introduce themselves as \"Les\" so it was just kinda twilight zone moment when we introduced ourselves and he said \"Hey I'm Les.\"

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December 10, 2008 5:22 PM

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@gggtur: I'm with you; my family and I haven't spent a single penny on GM cars, so the only thing they need to apologize for is taking my tax dollars because they allowed themselves to become so important to so many, ensuring no one would let them fail.

","

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Saboth

December 10, 2008 4:40 PM

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Sure, you are forgiven. Now....what are you going to do about it? A bailout will cover you for 6 months or so. What products are you releasing in the next 2-3 months that will perk my interest? None? Ok...so you will need another bailout in 6 months, then another...right? In the meantime what are you going to be producing? The same cars that \"disappoint\" us, and are piling up on lots?

I say the government buys out the auto manufacturers, consolidates them into one brand, picking 1-2 of each category of the best vehicles, then converts the rest of the factories into manufacturing things that benefits our nation...fiber optic cable, network routers, surveillance drones for our borders, roadwork vehicles, cheap medical machines, etc.

2 replies

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December 10, 2008 4:55 PM

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@Saboth: I don't want to come down hard on your idea, but what you don't realize (and most other people don't realize) is that the actual manufacturing operation is a small piece of the business. Take a look at Apple for a comparison. \"Designed by Apple in California\" is engraved on their products, but the manufacturing is done by contract offshore. Yet Apple employs thousands and thousands of people in the United States. Same deal here: the majority of the jobs and involved money aren't linked directly to the manufacturing operations.

Therefore consolidating a few key marques does nothing wit the overhead. In fact, that would accellerate the problem that the loans (note: not bailout) are trying to avoid: laying off millions of people related to the industry. Remember, a plant only employs a few thousand. We're talking millions. (On that note, unemployment benefits for 5 million people versus loans that will be repaid isn't cheap, either.)

Lastly, a \"factory\" is just a big building. The real money is the stuff inside, and machinery for building automobiles can't be used to build medical devices, etc.

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Saboth

December 10, 2008 5:05 PM

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yes, but my point would be....as is, we are paying them to manufacture and employ people making a product that no one wants, and no one is buying. I understand the factories will have to be completely retooled. And there will still be massive unemployment. However....what is the logic behind producing something that will just sit on ships, docks and lots indefinately, just to pay people to keep their jobs?

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johnnya2

December 11, 2008 5:05 AM

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@Saboth: The fact is nobody wants or is buying them currently because the credit market has dried up. Sales of Honda, and Toyota are WAY down too. GM had no control over the credit markets crashing. Do you think if supply dries up they can build a new factory in a few months to reach production levels again? The problem is the absolute blinders and political gamesmanship put on to make it seem the economy was humming along. Look and see when the FIRST time george W actually said it was a recession. Hell McCain still thinks the fundamentals are strong in the economy. Why should auto executives know the entire countries economy will crash into near depression levels.
By the way, the airlines received a bailout after 9/11 because they had no control over what happened, and I didnt see any hotels, restaurants, amusement parks etc get any money because they were negatively effected

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Rectilinear Propagation

December 10, 2008 5:31 PM

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...as is, we are paying them to manufacture and employ people making a product that no one wants, and no one is buying...
@Saboth: That's what I was thinking too. How is this bailout going to save any of them when no one is buying any cars? Hell, people can't even afford to buy cars right now. Banks won't lend anyone any money. Even if they are able to get some good vehicles out there in the next couple of months who is supposed to buy them?

Are we going to pay them to NOT build cars?

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meske

December 10, 2008 10:47 PM

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@Rectilinear Propagation:
Cmon people. Cars are still being sold. Sure, not at the pace they were going over the last few years, but hell, that's the story of the whole economy! We're in a general slowdown, and the only real problem here is that manufactures didn't slow their processes down sooner to account for the downturn.

Also, even if this country has 10% unemployment - there's still 90% of the population with jobs, many of whom need cars, or have leases, etc. I'm not saying it's not bad out there today, it's definitely a rough environment. But, with high inventory comes steep discounts, and is the reason I ended up saving $14K off sticker for a new \"American\" car (assembled in Canada!). Honda and Toyota have better control of their inventories, hence the reason they've not done the same.

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glorpy

December 10, 2008 11:15 PM

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@meske: Uh, if you just saved $14K off sticker, where was that profit margin going previously? And why would I ever be willing to pay it in the future? Very few people need a specific brand new car right now.

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meske

December 11, 2008 11:05 PM

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@glorpy: Portions of that were going to the dealer. In this case, the \"factory\" was providing cash to dealer as incentive to move the cars. There are always those that will pay whatever the sticker says for a car, and then some...

I keep cars for a long time and put a ton of miles on them, so resale is not a huge factor for me... form and function rule, along with low/no maint. costs (which comes with the warranty for at least the next five years).

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TheBursar

December 10, 2008 6:21 PM

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@Rectilinear Propagation: Demand for new cars, due to the downturn is at an all time low. Thousands (possibly in the hundreds of thousands) of people in the car industry will be losing their jobs due to that. NOT due to problems with a product. Even car makers with high quality ratings will have to downsize somewhat.
Giving them money will not increase that demand and therefore cant be the solution.

","

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wee0x1B

December 10, 2008 4:41 PM

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That's a faux pas for sure. \"Sorry, the stuff we made that you bought was crap. Buy our new stuff, please.\" Not a good way to keep customers loyal.

","","

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December 10, 2008 4:45 PM

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This is America, where you're an asshole until you say you screwed up, appologize, and go into rehab.

2 replies

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December 10, 2008 8:15 PM

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@HIV 2 Elway Resurrected: So can we appoint their dad as executor and watch as their new album soars to #1 on the pop charts?

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Xay

December 10, 2008 5:38 PM

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@HIV 2 Elway Resurrected:

This.

","

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December 10, 2008 4:46 PM

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Let them go bankrupt and hopefully a quality oriented manufacturer will take over the planets (Toyota?). That will keep a majority of the auto workers employed.

2 replies

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December 10, 2008 4:47 PM

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@FrankenPC: Er...plants. I'm already screwing up.

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Xanaxian

December 10, 2008 6:50 PM

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@FrankenPC: No, no! Toyota taking over the planets would be cool!! ... :D

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December 10, 2008 9:31 PM

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@Xanaxian: Maybe they will bring Pluto back!

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blackmage439

December 10, 2008 4:47 PM

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Dear GM,

My family and I are both proud owners of Saturn vehicles. My 1994 SL2 w/ 167,000 mi still runs as decently as can be expected for a going on 15 year old car. Saturn was to be a hallmark, an alternative, a new beginning even, for GM's brands. The no-haggle pricing and slightly off-beat models were intriguing to every car buyer who hates car shopping.

Your desecration of the brand is disgusting. You have mismanaged and held back Saturn for too many years; it is now a shell of its former self, even more so than you. My next car was to be an Aura. Unless Saturn is taken over by another company, or you get your grubby, incompetent hands out of its business, that will not happen. I will gladly purchase a foreign vehicle, so long as they manufacture in the States.

You've had your chance.

9 replies

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December 12, 2008 6:12 AM

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@blackmage439:
My family has had 4 S-series Saturns, all have been rock-solid reliable, easy to maintain and good value. Of the four, one was sold with 175,000 miles because my wife inherited a car. The other three are still in the family. The newest one has 140K miles on it, another has 240K on it and the other is pushing close to 200K. The plastic body is a real winner for us, because we live on a gravel road and in the rust belt.

I really like the new Saturns - the Aura and the Astra, but I'm a ways from replacing what I have.

The Mrs. now has a 2004 Cadillac DHS - a very nice set of wheels.

Now, if you want to talk crappy vehicles here's a list of third rate GM cars we've owned.

1979 Chevy Citation 2 door
1980 Chevy Citalion 4 door
1986 Chevy Celebrity wagon
1985 Chevy Celebirty wagon
1984 Chevy Celebrity wagon
1988 Chevy Celebrity wagon

Every one of the Celebritys had similar problems - radiator rot, bad alternators, cruise controls failed around 65K, bad rack units (the Citations had these too).

Also had a 1988 Cavalier - a solidly built car, but a really bum engine in it and a dated design. I sold that one at 205K miles, when the oil consumption was about 250 mile per quart. The buyer then put another 50K on it before the head gasket blew.

If it hadn't been for the Saturns, we would have dumped GM long ago.

We also had a string of Buicks that all had the 3800 engine and the standard equipment leaky manifold problems that came with the 3800s.

BTW, it wasn't very long ago that GM ran the \"Road to Redemption\" ads - seems they're getting a bunch of practice apologizing.

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December 10, 2008 7:09 PM

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@blackmage439:
Saturn was what GM could have been. I know so many people who have had older Saturns that just wouldn't die. A coworker's SC2 had over 225k on it and the original engine/trans.

Once Saturn became another parts-bin division it was over.

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Trai_Dep

December 10, 2008 5:56 PM

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@blackmage439: As dismissive I am of most American cars, Saturn got mad props from me. If GM had the slightest clue, or the merest hint of a positive sea-change, they'd have announced they're pulling the Saturn team (past and present) front and center and from here on out, they'll be running the GM shop.

Of course, instead one of the first things the GM execs announced was that they'll CLOSE Saturn. Cotton-headed, smug, unrepentant bast*rds. Save the workers, hang the execs.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:47 PM

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@blackmage439: Well lets see, take your pick of Hyundai (Alabama), Toyota (Kentucky?), or Honda (Ohio).

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LJKelley

December 10, 2008 6:55 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese:

All Mercedes-Benz M & GL Class SUVs are made in Alabama. Kia is opening a plant in GA. BMW, Nissan and Subura have plants as well.

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December 10, 2008 5:38 PM

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@blackmage439: Hey Black Mage, I owned a 1999 Saturn SL that I drove to 165k on it. I sold it to a friend who put another 20k on it. I unwisely purchased a 2004 VUE and its been riddled with problems. When I went to Saturn to get help, They told me nothing was wrong, and refused my VUE entry into the dealership. Corporate told me it was a local dealership issue they wouldnt get involved with. Don't buy an Aura, you'll regret it. Buying a Saturn is now like buying a Chevy, with the exception that Saturn Dealerships have the air of european arrogance. F them. Be happy go buy a Honda.

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December 10, 2008 5:30 PM

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@blackmage439: Agreed. Saturn died the day the SL/SC/SW series cars did. Everything from that point forward has been little more than a badge job.

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December 10, 2008 5:42 PM

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@djsyndrome: My wife and I love our 2002 SL1's that we bought mid-2001 with her father's GM discount (he's a retiree, who's now worried about his pension). If our Saturns ever die, though, we're looking at Toyota first.

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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed

December 10, 2008 5:37 PM

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@djsyndrome: I disagree...I think the L-series retained the same things that made the SL/SC/SW unique. Simplicity, reliability, good dealers, and plastic body panels.

It wasn't until they completely sold out their whole line to Opel that it was all over for Saturn.

Ironically, their lineup now is the best it's ever been...but they've lost the plot and can't get any attention. Because now they're just doing the same things as everyone else.

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December 10, 2008 5:56 PM

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@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: I thought you hated your L-series? I know I've said it before, but I love mine! Growing up in the rust-belt, I always thought a car with plastic body panels was the best idea ever. Of course, I didn't buy one until I got to Texas...

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B

December 10, 2008 5:43 PM

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@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: Nah, the Saturn Opels are great. It was the Ions that nearly killed the brand. I love my SL2, but my mom's Ion is a piece of junk.

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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed

December 10, 2008 5:51 PM

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@B: I should clarify: I do think the Saturn Opels are the best cars they've ever offered. I just meant that they basically killed the brand and its uniqueness in the process.

","

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December 10, 2008 4:48 PM

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I prefer this one:

4 replies

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December 10, 2008 5:28 PM

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@sir_eccles: I love you.

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TheName

December 10, 2008 5:44 PM

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@Rectilinear Propagation: Courtesy genius of The Beast

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December 10, 2008 10:16 PM

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@TheName: Yeah, sorry about lack of attribution, as ever with these things it was emailed to me without such a thing attached. Thanks TheName.

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Rectilinear Propagation

December 10, 2008 5:26 PM

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@sir_eccles: Where did you find that? Did you make it?

+15

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December 10, 2008 4:53 PM

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@sir_eccles: How'd they know I drive a kick-ass Subaru? Now that's just creepy.

","

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LatherRinseRepeat

December 10, 2008 4:48 PM

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\"..our designs became lackluster.\"

Haha. This is a serious understatement. I mean, they sell the same car/truck/SUV under multiple brands. Within the past 5+ years, they've introduced new models that were either SUV's or crossovers. But even those models weren't \"new\". They were just hacked versions of their existing vehicle platforms.

2 replies

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Saboth

December 10, 2008 4:51 PM

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@LatherRinseRepeat:

I've never understood this. They take either a crappy ford and rebadge it as a lincoln or mercury, or a crappy daewoo and rebadge it as a chevy then as a pontiac...I mean...why do we need 3-4 versions of the same car? And on top of that, why does each company need 10 versions of an SUV, 5 versions of a small car, 8 versions of a midsize, 5 versions of a pickup, 6 versions of a minivan...etc.

Just pick 1-2 of each vehicle, and devote your resources to making them the best in their class.

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December 10, 2008 5:08 PM

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@Saboth: To satisfy the dealer networks. They give Chevy the daewoo Aveo, but then pontiac wants a small car, so now we have the G3. Like I've said all along, GM needs to eliminate the dealership system, but there are too many protections in place to prevent this from happening...

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:45 PM

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@nataku83: If they could handle competing against themselves, they could have a \"GM\" dealer. That'd be easy.

That way I wouldn't have had to go across town to service the Pontiac, I coulda gone to the chevy dealership a block down the road.

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December 10, 2008 5:58 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: You sure you couldn't take the Pontiac to the Chevy dealer down the road? I never take my cars to be serviced at the dealership (a trusted 3rd party mechanic is considerably better than a random dealership any day, but I do the majority of the work on my cars myself), but for parts, you can buy any GM part at any GM dealership, doesn't matter the brand.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:44 PM

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@nataku83: Oh! So THAT'S why the Aveo sucks! Its a Daewoo! I wasn't aware it was owned by GM

","

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December 10, 2008 4:48 PM

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I will forgive them if they fix every problem with my 2004 Saturn Ion. I've had about a dozen seperate non-maintenance issues with it. Unfortunately I never got to three instances of the same issue to qualify for the lemon law.

1 replies

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December 10, 2008 5:43 PM

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@lvhotrain: Ha! I have a 04 VUE. I had several parts fail, and they claimed it was user error, until I did research to find out that a high percentage of 04 VUE V6 had the exact same issues. and they told me it was the dealership's problem.

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December 10, 2008 4:52 PM

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if they can die a thousand horrible deaths and still hang around, i'll forgive them.

they have made 2 quality cars in the last 35 years, the current generation corvette and i really like the CTS. that said, i cannot believe we survived for over 30 years after the first fuel crisis without one G@#damn thing being done by anyone to prevent another one. now, here we are, with our wangs in our hands and products that wouldn't have been up to industry standards 10 years ago. german design and the japanese approach to an economical family car have been kicking our asses for decades and the best you assholes can do is say \"sorry, can we have $25 billion?\"

BEND OVER DETROIT, you've had this coming for a long, long time.

","

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December 10, 2008 4:53 PM

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Let it fail. The workers can be re-hired later by whichever company takes its place.

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December 10, 2008 4:54 PM

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I would forgive them, but its Wednesday and I only forgive people on Fridays.

Also, they need to stop selling Hummers to consumers with road rage, or consumers period.

","","

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December 10, 2008 4:55 PM

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Too little too late. It's so nice that they realize (and probably have realized for quite some time) that their products are inferior. I feel bad for the folks who have bought GM vehicles lately, because your product sucks, straight from the horse's mouth. Maybe we should bail out the people who bought BM autos in the first place. But GM... let 'em go down. They've had chance after chance to fix themselves, and they did nothing. What's there to make us think they'll finally change now?

3 replies

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December 10, 2008 4:55 PM

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@BrianDaBrain: GM not BM. Argh...

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December 10, 2008 5:21 PM

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@BrianDaBrain: Considering \"BM\" stands for \"bowel movement,\" describing them as BM might not be that inaccurate.

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blackmage439

December 10, 2008 5:18 PM

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@BrianDaBrain: No no. It works. \"GM\" is the typo.

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katieoh

December 10, 2008 4:57 PM

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i thought this money had been previously set aside, only it was originally for funding their building more \"green\" vehicles? iirc, i don't think we'll be paying any MORE out of pocket.

1 replies

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thewriteguy

December 10, 2008 5:29 PM

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I believe the Big 3 are now asking for the requirement to build green vehicles be lifted, in order for them to get the bailout money.

","

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December 10, 2008 4:59 PM

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I think the government forgot the point of BANKRUPTCY it is to restructure broken companies *cough*GM*cough* and make them profitable again. If we keep giving money to broken companies guess what? NOTHING GETS FIXED.

2 replies

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:30 PM

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@Swizzler121: And yet, GM is running from Bankruptcy like its the plague. I wonder why.

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varro

December 10, 2008 5:54 PM

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@Swizzler121: The only thing the government should be doing is providing debtor-in-possession financing or backing up private DIP financing for a Chapter 11 or similar type of receivership.

DIP financing jumps ahead of all other claimholders, since Chapter 11 provides for this kind of privileged financing to help struggling companies reorganize.

","

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rubberpants

December 10, 2008 4:59 PM

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Did they apologize for killing the electric car?

2 replies

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December 10, 2008 6:19 PM

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@rubberpants: I haven't watched the movie, but don't they another better electric car now?

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Saboth

December 10, 2008 6:34 PM

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Dunno about better, but at 45,000, I don't know too many people that could afford to buy it. That's like half the cost of my house.

","

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December 10, 2008 5:00 PM

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Forgive them for greed and ignorance? no, help them, a reluctant yes only to help the employees

1 replies

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December 11, 2008 5:21 AM

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@pjstevens77: Yea screw Capitalism!

","

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AbsoluteIrrelevance

December 10, 2008 5:02 PM

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I hope GM's apology is accompanied by a check to cover the exhaustive maintenance their customers have had to pay for, just so they could drive around a GM car. Since I doubt there will be any checks forthcoming, I'd like to join the American people in a big, \"Go fuck yourselves, GM.\"

","

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December 10, 2008 5:02 PM

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For every tale of a GM/Ford/Chrysler purchase gone wrong...there are probably 5 times as many happy customers that we never hear about.

I own a 2005 Ford Focus that has always run flawlessly and has provided decent gas mileage.

I drive a Chevy Malibu for work...and ditto...it runs great and serves up some decent gas mileage.

I really would like for all of the people who are eager to see the 'big three' shut down and go belly up to explain what kind of country they see in the near term if they get their wish. Best estimates put the number of 'real non-executive' workers who would be out of a job at around 3 million people. (If you include all of the assorted businesses that would fail as a result of the above scenario.)

How bad will our economy get if we add three million unemployed people to the unemployment rosters?

I'm not in favor of just handing over money indefinitely to keep Detroit going...but I think it's a bit short sighted to refuse any sort of help and take gleeful joy in their suffering.

There are REAL people who will be affected if we standby and do nothing.

9 replies

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jimconsumer

December 12, 2008 7:59 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: Yeah, real people will be affected. Real people who made their own beds via the UAW. They've been extorting ridiculous sums of money out of GM for decades. As far as I'm concerned, they're all getting their dues. I do NOT want my tax dollars used to prop up a bunch of whiny people with ridiculous salaries.

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bobbycreekwater

December 10, 2008 8:12 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: You are wrong... I would honestly say at least 65% of the people I know who drive GM/Ford/Chrysler car are disappointed. Furthermore, no one can debate with me that the Chevy Cavalier was the absolute worst car ever manufactured. I will say that these companies do have the capacity to make a good vehicle because they make damn good SUV/Trucks, this is what they do better than any foreign competitor. Their cars though are a joke.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:33 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: I see a company at the bottom of a very long fall, but slowly making its way back up.

If we continue to prop up these stupid execs with their misguided corporate policies, we'll never hit bottom and we'll prolong this awful economy more - or worse yet - lay it on the next generation and then it will be 100x worse.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:33 PM

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@Oranges w/ Cheese: company = country, sorry.

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December 10, 2008 5:24 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: @Saboth: I don't know that all cars by GM are bad. I think some definitely have problems, and the way the company operated was problematic. But my first car was a 96 Chevy Corsica. It was salvage when I got it. She lasted me through college and then some. I just replaced her, because she was wearing out. She had a few problems, but she kept running till the very end.

Again, maybe I'm one of the lucky ones. And I think their businesses practices were terrible. Their cars, not necessarily.

I have a Malibu now, and granted, I could go to lunch and it crap out, but so far, so good.

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December 10, 2008 6:36 PM

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@lalaland13: From a quality statistics stand point, 1 failure out of 6 opportunities is absolutely horrible.

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December 10, 2008 5:12 PM

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@Jeremiah1977: there would never be 3 million unemployed americans if gm, chrysler and ford were forced into bankruptcy. layoffs would be pretty heavy, but total shutdown would never happen. chrysler has already been thru this before, remember Iacocca? I don't have a clear opinion on what fate they should suffer, but it is not going to push us over a cliff as a country if they fail to secure bailout money.

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Saboth

December 10, 2008 5:08 PM

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So...you drive 2 cars that are about 2 years old, and have no problems? I should hope not. If American cars failed after 1-2 years, they would have gone bankrupt years ago. I guess try again when it is 10 years from now. Personally, I drive a 93 F150 that runs decently (although it seems to go through heater cores every 2 years), but then again...trucks are the only thing they got right.

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Jakuub

December 10, 2008 5:20 PM

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@Saboth: But, but, if cars last for more than 4-5 years, no-one that buys one will need a new one in 4-5 years, and then big3 will have to wait LONGER to get consumers back in the dealership, shelling out for another 5 years of mediocrity... That'll never work!

","

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HeartBurnKid, creepy morbid freak

December 10, 2008 5:03 PM

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I'll forgive them if they change their ways, and actually make decent cars that get good mileage at a low price.

Either way, they don't deserve a bailout, and I'm not convinced at all that giving them one would do anything but throw good money after bad.

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Gearhead_42 - Nibbles ate my garage!

December 10, 2008 5:07 PM

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Their words mean nothing.

Of course, neither do their deeds, so screw 'em.

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kc2idf

December 10, 2008 5:15 PM

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I think that one of the few things they did right was slap their name on Toyotas. I drive a 1999 Chevy Prizm, which is a Toyota Corolla. My wife used to drive a 1988 Chevy Nova, which was . . . a Toyota Corolla, and was still drivable (though admittedly a bear to start in the winter) when she sold it in 2004. Both get/got slightly over 30 MPG reliably.

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donovanr

December 10, 2008 5:16 PM

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Let this company fail. But keep in mind that it was the workers who went on strike every time the company made an extra nickle who killed it. Why would the management even try when a strike would be their reward for the slightest success?
As for hiring these useless workers; local companies won't touch them with a barge pole when they are laid off because the second they are recalled they leave their jobs without any notice.

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December 10, 2008 6:34 PM

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@donovanr: Yeah, damn UAW never gives concessions to the poor auto makers. Oh wait...[www.nytimes.com]

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MacGyver

December 10, 2008 5:16 PM

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After the whole intake manifold gasket fiasco for which GM still denies any responsibility, NO.

Hopefully I'll get $400 from the class action settlement out of the $1100 I paid out of my own pocket to fix GM's screw up - before they go belly up.

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December 10, 2008 5:17 PM

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One thing people need to realize. If GM files for Chpt. 11, that means Warranties could become void. That also means the parts wont be made. Not to mention the dealerships and accompanying service places. Thousands, if not, millions unemployed.

As much as I hate GM (scum of the earth), if they go down we're screwed.

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December 11, 2008 5:29 AM

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@Jake Bechtold: Chrysler has already stopped making parts for my Jeep. Bastards. Of course it is 18 years old.

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December 10, 2008 5:17 PM

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I don't forgive them....yet. They need to step up and change a lot. But I still don't think they should get any taxpayer money.

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December 10, 2008 5:18 PM

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Looks like any other garden variety of deathbed repentance.

Really,did it take a total collapse for these arrogant assholes to admit what we car buyers have known for years ? I feel bad for the people that could be hurt in a bankruptcy/shutdown,but the number of victims in that scenario is pretty small compared to the societal cost of building shabby,unreliable cars.If we save these guys,we are rewarding failure and arrogance. If we save them and by some miracle they come back and prosper,how long do you think it will be before they are back to their old,\"screw the consumer\" gestalt ?

Now. The union members that will get a closeup look at the local unemployment office need to look in a mirror and be honest about how they got to this point. Sure, the big 3's management over the years has been a large part of the problem,but when you make the kind of money that they make and never even discuss sacrificing for the good of all concerned,well...That's just another kind of arrogance. Lots of fingerprints on the murder weapon that has killed these companies.Hope you \"car guy\" enjoyed the ride...

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Ash78 ain't got time to bleed

December 10, 2008 5:19 PM

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I'll say this much in GM's defense:
My wife's 03 Saturn L-series hasn't had a single unscheduled repair in the 6 years we've owned it. Not one. Just oil, tires, and brakes. It's been as cheap to own as any car possibly COULD be.

Granted, it's pretty basic and there's not much on it to break, but still.

Also: it's for sale if anyone's interesting in a clean, low-mileage daily driver (47k miles). 2003saturn at gmail dot com.

/shameless plug

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Swervo

December 10, 2008 5:21 PM

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It's not a matter of whether we'll forgive them. I don't have any allegiance to any company, certainly not a car company. I used to only have Toyotas because they made cars that I like that were good quality. Then, they decided to basically ditch the small sporty car market, and the only one they did make was an underpowered FWD, so I switched.

GM's had a few good cars that they either market badly or just manage to goof something up.

The GTO was a fantastic car, but they marketed it badly: For one, they named it the GTO. If it's not nostalgic, don't name it after a beloved model. Why couldn't they call it the Monaro like they do in every other territory, and show commercials of it in Aussie V8 form?

Why make a great little roadster in the Solstice/Sky, then stuff the roof in the trunk so it's impossible to use for a road trip longer than a day? The MX-5 can retain all its trunk space, which is larger than the Solstice's when it's got its roof up, with the top down. The Solstice, I believe, goes to under 1 cubic foot with the roof folded.

From what I've been reading, the newest iteration of the Cobalt is a fantastic little car, lots of power, excellent handling, and a real competitor for the spot taken by cars like the Civic Si. Why hasn't that been marketed at all? It might still struggle to compete with the Mazdaspeed 3, but it's still one of the best small cars GM has made in a heck of a long time. Still, I only ever hear about it on car sites or in magazines, I never see an ad for it.

All they need to do is really run with great ideas like the Solstice, fix niggling issues with cars like the CTS (really? A foot-operated emergency brake with a manual gearbox?), and figure out how to market their best cars while trying to use the lessons learned on those for their other cars, and they'll be just fine.

GM, quit doing the mea culpa and asking us to forgive you and just throw your weight behind your good cars until the other models can catch up. That's all you need to do!

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moore850

December 10, 2008 5:25 PM

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if they get rid of saturn, they lose all credibility with me as a saturn owner.

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December 10, 2008 5:26 PM

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The automakers CAN do a good job if they really want to. I bought a Corvette in the early 90s. In case you don't know, the Corvette plant in Bowling Green Kentucky was known for turning out high quality cars at that time. That car was built very well and I still have it today. It was one of the first cars to have traction control, flat tire sensors in the wheels, digital dashboard, OBDII and so on.

Now they mass produce Corvettes and I don't believe the attention to detail is still there.

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December 10, 2008 5:27 PM

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These CEO's remind me of a teenager.

A teenager knows everything and no one can tell them otherwise. They do what they want, when they want, and get all mad when you try and tell them no.

That is until they want something from you. Then suddenly they are all nice, apologetic and will do anything you say for the 2 hours leading up to the time when they finally tell you what they want.

And as soon as they get it, the go back to their miserable selves.

Automaker CEO = immature teenager

Automaker CEO's

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sleze69

December 10, 2008 5:34 PM

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No. Let them go bankrupt so that a judge can reorganize them.

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December 10, 2008 5:35 PM

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So I stopped supporting GM because they can't build a car I want, so the government can force me to pay them anyway? I think our government has become like GM and the music industry by not being responsive to our needs. I say, let's toss out all the riff raft who were duplicitous in this whole mess and let's hire politicians who will do what we want! I mean literally pay people with our tax money to be stewards of our interests. If they don't do what we want, we pay someone else.

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Red_Eye

December 10, 2008 5:41 PM

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Let Them Eat Cake!

Sorry if you work for GM but they and the rest of the big 3 dont deserve a bailout.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 5:42 PM

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so, since they've admitted fault, can we sue them?

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RedSonSuperDave

December 10, 2008 5:43 PM

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My previous car was a Dodge Aries-K, which died with just under 70,000 miles on the odometer. My current car is a Honda Accord that's still going strong with 160,000 miles on the odometer.

I think we should bail them out. We can add some conditions like, \"All new vehicles produced by the big three after this bailout must get a minimum of 40 miles to the gallon during highway driving\". If they don't like it, they're free to turn down the bailout.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 6:38 PM

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@RedSonSuperDave: Your problem there is that it was a K car. Not necessarily because it was a Dodge.

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Trai_Dep

December 10, 2008 5:50 PM

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Let's draft Ralph Nader to run GM.
Not because he'll do much (tho can't see him running it any worse) but just to finally get him off the freaken Presidential ticket. Yeesh.

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December 10, 2008 5:51 PM

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Personally I'm just tired of the self flagellation bullshit. If GM is to blame so be it but they didn't get into this situation on their own. I drive small cars and always have, but there are millions of people who bought the big gas guzzling vehicles that the big three made. There are also loads of politicians and oil lobbyists and god knows who else that helped put us in this situation.

I am more concerned about the short sightedness of everyone screaming \"Let them go fail\". The economic ramifications of that are more that I care to think about.

I agree with the writer who suggested that the workers and the facilities be put to make other things. In World War II factories were told that they weren't making cars anymore they were making tanks, or planes or whatever was needed. Why not use the same concept and make wind turbines and solar panels and hybrids?

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Rectilinear Propagation

December 10, 2008 6:01 PM

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If GM is to blame so be it but they didn't get into this situation on their own. I drive small cars and always have, but there are millions of people who bought the big gas guzzling vehicles that the big three made.

@aftercancer: But they don't need a bailout because of the people who did buy their vehicles.

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December 10, 2008 5:52 PM

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Honestly, it's nice that they admit that they let their quality slip, it's not like we knew how to change that... [en.wikipedia.org]

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azntg

December 10, 2008 5:59 PM

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Apologies are sufficient for a minor indiscretion or for a one-off major screwup, not for repeated major screwups.

For repeated major screwups, the only acceptable \"apology\" is to die a horrible death.

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oyvader

December 10, 2008 6:11 PM

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My father-in-law has two 1998 model dodge minivans for his bakery, each with over 200K miles on them. One still works just fine, but one of them finally gave up the ghost. I'm not sure what heplans on replacing them with, though.

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battra92

December 10, 2008 6:15 PM

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Let them fail. We can then roast the Union Bosses to feed the workers laid off.

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Rectilinear Propagation

December 10, 2008 6:46 PM

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@battra92: Was it the Union Bosses who made them build gas guzzlers?

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 7:10 PM

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@Rectilinear Propagation: No, but it was the union bosses who continued to make their labor costs unrealistic so they had to find a way to turn a profit. Thus the grossly profitable SUV.

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December 10, 2008 7:10 PM

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@Rectilinear Propagation: No but it was the union bosses that negotiated to be paid a 95% wage while sitting at home on their butts.

As long as UAW is running roughshod over the Big 3 they will never be competitive, no matter how much cash you throw at them.

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December 10, 2008 6:17 PM

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@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: L-series, yes. Great car. Unfortunately it was a lease and traded it on a heaping pile of junk Ion.

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December 10, 2008 6:23 PM

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Why does everyone feel like GM's customers deserve something? The research, reviews, and vast numbers of stories about failed vehicles have been out there for many of years.

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IrvCrapper

December 10, 2008 6:27 PM

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No. I don't forgive them.

They refuse to support a single payer health care program, which would enable them to duck their retiree health care liabilities. They sang George Bush's little tune.

Now let them die.

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wrecluse

December 10, 2008 6:32 PM

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Dear Gm

While I am still the best employee, I acknowledge I have disappointed you. At times I violated your trust by letting my quality fall below work standards and my performance became lackluster to the point where I lost adequate focus on my core responsibilities.

Do you think GM would forgive Me???

I will forgive GM about as quickly as I forgive all the people that thought they could afford a house well beyond their means. Give me a break it's time for a wake up call America!

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December 10, 2008 6:34 PM

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Thats probly the best idea yet. The people who are getting fired put their asses to use. Why give up money so joe blow can keep pushing a button and sending something down a convayer (spelling) belt and make something nobody is going to buy anyways. Make them build shit we need solar panels, wind turbines, piping for a high speed fiber optic network (The united states would benifit from this most. I mean think about it everything would be cheaper and faster and would give people more money to spend, and more time not waiting for shit), faster produced bybrid cars, nuclear plants (nuclear power is the future, we have the tech but no balls to do it), roads, schools, newer gas stations for alternative fuels. The list goes on and on. I can think of a ton of ways to utilize the people putting out shit suvs. Jesus, i really just made myself realize WTF HAVE WE BEEN DOING THE LAST 8 YEARS? I just baffled myself. Palm, Face.

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Anonymous

December 10, 2008 6:47 PM

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I tried to buy a Pontiac Solstice 2 years ago. They wouldn't sell me one without a $6000 dealer markup. GM didn't make enough cars to satisfy consumer demand and let their dealers get away with screwing the consumers in the name of profit.

Now they're practically begging me to buy a new car, but I'm perfectly happy with my new (and paid off) Ford Ranger. The one of the big 3 that managed to do right... to some degree.

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Brazell

December 10, 2008 6:55 PM

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To be accurate, GM sells just as many cars as Toyota.. the difference, of course, is that GM loses $2000 on every sale, while Toyota makes $4000 on every day.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 7:12 PM

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@MichaelBrazell: Right, so, GM needs to CHANGE. Which, they keep demonstrating, they absolutely refuse to do.

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December 10, 2008 6:56 PM

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Wait a minute. GM didn't apologize to us. From the article:

The unsigned open letter, entitled \"GM's Commitment to the American People\" ran in the trade journal Automotive News, which is widely read by industry executives, lobbyists and other insiders.\"

This isn't an apology to the American people for feeding us bad products, it's a plea to their stockholders and vendors to help keep the company afloat and hopefully save their own industry.

Screw them. They don't even know how to say they're sorry.

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December 10, 2008 7:11 PM

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@gaberussell: excellent point

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Anonymous

December 10, 2008 7:04 PM

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Please, this is all a red herring for the nearly 7 trillion dollars of bailout loans from the Federal Reserve.

I'm by no means a libertarian survivalist and think the Fed *should* exist with oversight, but this is all an opportunity to throw a two minutes of hate to American Industry over 20 billion dollars when countless trillions are thrown to a very well paid industry.

Keep getting angry over table scraps while your life savings are thrown to the rich, this impotent gesture does nothing.

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AvatarZ

December 10, 2008 7:12 PM

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What about No, I don't forgive you, you POS company. However, I'm worried about your workers so I'll give you money with lots of strings.

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December 10, 2008 7:15 PM

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My brother just told me the saga of his 1980 Monte carlo with 6-cyl and Turbocharger that nobody in the Chevy dealership knew how to work on that kept blowing its seals.

GM's made some good cars and some horrid cars; asking forgiveness is fine, but they need to get their s**t together and make cars that can actually compete in quality, design and economy with Toyota, Nissan, and other imports.

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December 10, 2008 7:38 PM

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I'm sorry, but it is against my (corporate) policy to bail out a company that has fucked the country when we needed (and still do) their help to make ends meet by making a car that gets better gas mileage and is built well. So to you car folks I say--FUCK OFF.

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December 10, 2008 7:38 PM

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How much did the ad cost them?

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savdavid

December 10, 2008 7:40 PM

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Well, if the money was going to be used to really save the company, I might. However, it won't be. The money will be squandered and the company will file backruptcy. The top excecutives will take their haul of cash and retire. Thanks, taxpayers!

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December 10, 2008 7:59 PM

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They are forgiven when I see some Holdens show up on these shores.

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brandymb

December 10, 2008 8:15 PM

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What? No one likes plastic cars anymore? I drive a '65 Pontiac LeMans GTO clone ( I can even work on it). GM go back to making great running cars outta steel. They last! Love my '87 Chevy 4x4 too.. with the steel chrome bumpers.

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jpdanzig

December 10, 2008 8:56 PM

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Apparently GM's betrayal included abusing the English language, as in this grammatically inept sentence from their apology ad: \"At times we violated your trust by letting our quality fall below industry standards and our designs became lackluster.\"

Really, if they can't write correct English in the most important ad in the corporation's history -- they have just proved their hopeless incompetence yet again.

Maybe it is time to let them die. Or do what Michael Moore suggested -- let the federal or state government buy the company at its depressed stock prices and throw out all the current managers.

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BritBoy

December 10, 2008 10:18 PM

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@jpdanzig: Yes, I also noticed that very curious sentence. I am not sure whether they mean, \"We violated your trust in two ways. First by letting quality fall, second by having lackluster designs.\" Or does it mean, \"We violated your trust. We also had lackluster design\".

Even more curious is the typically corporate wording which subtlety misplaces blame. I imagine the authors and reviewers of, \"our designs became lackluster\" are so well entrenched in corporate speak that they missed this point. By using 'designs became' they are avoiding taking responsibility by implying that it was the fault of the designs. Silly designs. The designs should have known better than to 'become lacklustre'.

A more humble and accurate statement would to put the company as the noun. \"GM produced some lackluster designs\".

Look again at the wording regarding the poor quality. \"By letting our quality fall\". Subtle. It appears to imply that the situation is the fault of quality. A more accurate and blame accepting statement would be, \"GM maintained inadequate quality\" or simply, \"Our quality fell\".

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kwsventures

December 10, 2008 9:05 PM

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GM has been around for about 100 years. I am still trying to find the line in the U.S. Constitution that says GM must be kept in business no matter how much taxpayer money it takes. I ask Barney Frank and Chris Dodd to e-mail me and let me know where it is stated in the Constitution. Yeah, nothing is forever, boys. GM will file Chapter 11 in 2009.

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December 10, 2008 9:49 PM

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Wow. All this vitriol,why?Youd think GM was founded by Hitler from these comments.

I dont defend their mistakes, but come on. Toyota aint perfect either, and GM HAS improved their products signifigantly. I drive a Pontiac with 186,000 miles on it, and trust me that is no statical error.

Lets consider the hypocrisy for the moment of permitting the bankers that caused this mess to recieve bailout funds, while we call bloody murder at a large company that produces AN ACTUAL PRODUCT and employes thousands of hardworking Americans at all levels asking for help.

Check yourselves people.

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quickstrike

December 10, 2008 10:04 PM

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My dad owns a 1996 lincoln towncar, my mom a 1997 chevy lumina, my sister a 2006/7( not sure) saturn vue, my girlfriend a 2005 dodge neon, I personally own a 2000 taurus and a 1985 Trans Am. My next vehicle will either be a Ford F-150 or the new Camaro, possible a new Firebird(I heard rumors)

Our cars are reliable never give us any serious trouble, and have never let us down.

GM, Ford, Chrysler, you my forgiveness and my high expectations.

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December 10, 2008 10:16 PM

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My question is who the hell is going to want to be seen in one of these cars made by the most incompetent car company on the planet? Anyone I have ever seen in a Ford or GM car I've thought they were ignorant, incompetent and stupid. Even moreso now.

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December 10, 2008 10:19 PM

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For all those who say we should just let the US auto makers fail, you have little to no grasp on just how dependent we are on them.

I agree, they have done some very stupid, short-sighted, and greedy things.

They sunk themselves. The problem however is that no matter how angry we are as a country at the US auto industry, they employ a lot of people. Those consumers in turn support local businesses and on and on. Letting the auto makers fail is the economic equivalent of cutting off our collective noses to spite our face. Every punishment we visit on them will come back at us and THAT truth is something we all need to understand.

Punish the executives that put the companies in this mess. Letting the companies die will only sink us lower. I for one don't want to see just how much lower we can sink.

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Oranges w/ Cheese hates what Christmas has become

December 10, 2008 10:46 PM

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@cliffracer: And if we give them money now, what's to make them actually change their ways?

The only way they will learn is if they suffer. Oh well people lose their jobs, its the companies fault. At least we'll finally hit bottom so we can build up something again.

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Kay Bee

December 10, 2008 11:53 PM

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PUT THE GM EV-1 back on the market and you'll be rich GM... stop bending over for the oil.

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MPHinPgh

December 11, 2008 12:18 AM

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It's going to be a truly sad day for me if I _have_ to buy a foreign car (even one made in the States). I've owned nothing but Chrysler producst for years (save for a '90 Escort wagon that got 42 MPG on the highway - seriously), and I've been more-or-less happy with all of them.

Yes, they've needed repairs. All cars do. Don't bother telling me your Honda went 250,000 miles with nothing but oil changes and new brakes. I call Bullshit!

Detroit's cars need improvement. They need to get better mileage. The Big 3 need to wake up and realize it's a new day.

But if Toyota's quality is so great, why is it that a local Toyota dealership (where I service the computer network) always has the bays full of Toyota's up on the rack with various pieces of mechanical innards scattered on the floor?

Hey Chrysler and Ford (screw GM...never liked them, never will), gimme a $15000 car that gets 32 MPG in THE CITY, looks half decent, can be expected to require no major repairs as long as I'm paying on the loan and can get out of it's own way and I'll buy it (oh, yeah...build it here. Not like my PT which was built in MEXICO!).

And you'd better do it quick. My daughter will probably get the PT next spring, so I'll be needing a car. Don't make me buy used.

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Decaye

December 11, 2008 12:26 AM

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I was under the impression that they got their shit together a few years ago. They improved overall build quality quite a while ago, and have finally started on some decent R&D. If we're willing to bailout a bunch of incredibly stupid banks, even though banks exist to deal with money, and GM is doing poorly primarily because people stopped spending money - not necessarily through a fault of their own. I don't understand the retarded double standard.

That said, it'd take a lot to draw me away from Mitsu and Nissan, so I personally won't be deeply impacted no matter what happens.

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seashell2

December 11, 2008 12:45 AM

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Out in my driveway is the biggest reason I was hoping GM would go bankrupt. CHEVROLET UPLANDER I have attempted to trade it in but despite having a large down payment when we bought it and $400 plus payments, 3 years of depreciation have now reduced it to 1/3 of what we paid for it. We paid 32,000 for it with GM Supplier discount plus rebates and GM card discount we were offered 11,000 trade in value.
I have left the keys in it hoping someone would steal it.
In the first 8,000 miles I had to replace the brakes and rotors because the braking system was designed for a vehicle 800lbs lighter. I currently am unable to use drivers side sliding door because it will beep thinking it is open. These are just a few examples. It also handles like a 400 year old boat. I honestly could cry thinking about that enormous piece of shit and what I could have had instead.
In case your wondering why we bought it, my husband is pro-GM and he was paying for it. That is my current motivation for completing college so I can earn more money and choose my car next time.
end of rant

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December 11, 2008 12:47 AM

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I'm fine with a bail-out. Of course, only if we collateralize all of their assets, loan them $0.50 on the dollar, set a payback date, and threaten liquidation if they don't make it. Sounds fair to me.

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joexmd

December 11, 2008 12:57 AM

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I, on the other hand, love my Buick Lucerne. It's a year and a half old and everything is perfect. My last car was a new Pontiac Bonneville. That also was a perfect car for the 6 years I had it. I put hand controls in it and gave it to my disabled Dad. I would've bought another one if they still made them. My previous vehicles were also gm. A used Bonneville and a used Grand Prix. Both were excellent cars with no problems. Before that, I had used Blazers (4X4). They were ok but nothing special.

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December 11, 2008 1:04 AM

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The big 3 have not shown profits in a long time. The bail out money will just go to shareholders, and when thats done Shareholders will leave and they will still go bankrupt. And this will all happen in less then a year. Plus why should we bail out a company that wanted to move their factories to 3rd world countries, they didn't give a damn about the common wage worker then, why would they care now. And to all those american car owners.... I own a 1994 lexus ES 300 that has 210,000 miles. It still runs smoothly as it did when I bought it in 1994, and the repair costs I have done on it the last 3 years have been minimal.

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RogueWarrior65

December 11, 2008 2:25 AM

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I don't forgive them for not having the balls to stand up to the unions or for not filing Chapter 11 so they can reorganize without the union's interference. Name one industry that hasn't gotten buttf*cked by the associated union. Hollywood doesn't count because they can easily pass the cost onto the customer. Even then, don't get me started on those whiny bastards who churn out dreadful performances and think they're entitled to a residual every time somebody even utters the words \"'Twilight'? That movie sucked ass.\"

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December 11, 2008 3:24 AM

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they failed when they killed the EV1, they failed and did not try to fix their mistakes. they deserve nothing, let Benz come in with their Smart's and Tata with their all air car, will be better for the planet and everyone.

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Grrrrrrr, now with two buns made of bacon.

December 11, 2008 3:58 AM

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Yeah, like GM regrets screwing the American consumer. What a crock of BS.

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December 11, 2008 5:10 AM

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I have '99 Chevy Blazer 2DR Sport 4wd. It's a smaller type SUV and I've had it for 3 yrs. now. I paid it off a year ago and it runs great. The only problems I've had with it have been minor or are just annoying sound-type problems that don't affect the driveability of the vehicle. It looks good IMHO and I get compliments on the style of it. Anyways I've only ever owned Fords before this and I will NEVER, and I mean NEVER forgive that rat trap, piece-of -shi*-selling company and their piece-of-shi* cars. One car I had a brake-booster vacuum issue that had my car at the dealer for 5 times in half a year for weeks at a time. I drove the dealer's rental for months. The last one I had, which is the last Ford I will EVER own used to shut off on the highway when it got too hot outside. Not dangerous or anything HAH! So GM I forgive you, but Ford I hope you die in this economy you crappy bastards.

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johnnya2

December 11, 2008 5:13 AM

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Ok people lets use correct terminology when discussing what is happening. This is NOT a bailout, it is a loan. many of you may have had a similar \"bailout\" when you were in college called a student loan (backed by the government if you failed to pay it back). Many vets get lower interest rate loans supplied by the government from VA loans. The FHA does the same thing. The SBA helps improve small business with loans. The funny part is, in all those situations the government does not tell you how to run your life, what is best to study, which house you should get to keep your value, or anything else. The fact is GM can not get a loan even with billions of dollars in assets, from the banking industry because they fucked up so badly. The recession means they are in a situation that many of their assets (plants, property, equipment) could not be sold for what it truly is worth.
By the way, all those Toyota and Honda plants int eh US that people talk about were at the expense of local tax payers absorbing \"tax abatements\" to allow them to build there without paying their fair share. Thanks to Mississippi, and South Carolina etc for lowering the standard of living for the rest of the country. It is the Wal Marting of America.

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BritBoy

December 11, 2008 8:18 PM

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@johnnya2: \"Bailout\" in the dictionary is \"noun : (informal)
an act of giving financial assistance to a failing business or economy to save it from collapse.\"

Yep, its a bailout.

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johnnya2

December 11, 2008 8:27 PM

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@BritBoy: Then BK would actually be a bailout as well by your ignorant definition. So I guess one way or another there is always a \"bailout\"

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BritBoy

December 12, 2008 12:19 AM

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@johnnya2: Hey, there is no need to call the definition I quoted as ignorant. Its not my definition, its the dictionary definition.

Here is the definition of 'bailout' from www.dictionary.com,
\"2. an instance of coming to the rescue, esp. financially: a government bailout of a large company.\"

That sure sounds like an accurate description of the big 3's situation. Its a bailout.

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December 11, 2008 6:25 AM

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I'm glad there won't be any collateral damage from letting the \"Big 3\" fail.
Oh. Wait.

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December 11, 2008 6:26 AM

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By the way, this isn't a bailout like the financial industry, it's a loan. Meg, you may want to take note of that fact.

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jecowa

December 11, 2008 7:47 AM

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There's not an indifferent option?

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wolimits

December 11, 2008 2:25 PM

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These companies have wasted enormous amounts of money lobbying against the changes that consumers/voters wanted. Instead of higher standards on fuel economy and safety much of the auto industries fought to limit progress. What is worse is that we know that to some extent these lobbyists did just that. We owe the industry nothing. If the big three want our respect they need to earn it through action. Spending money on an advertisement gives nothing to society.

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ilves

December 11, 2008 2:37 PM

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They're like the drug addict family member who comes to you and says 'I'm sorry for all the pain I caused you, but could you loan me some more money?'

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HotTubber

December 11, 2008 2:59 PM

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And what does GM hope to offer us now? They're about 30 years too late.
I have wanted to \"buy American\" for years but not to the point where I would give up reliability. I've been very happy with my Hondas.

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sublicon

December 11, 2008 5:27 PM

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Sorry, I voted to help because I don't think it's just the companies we're helping, but the workers too, who are not at fault for this meltdown, no matter what people want to make of earnings and labor union tactics and whatever.

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Anonymous

December 12, 2008 1:41 AM

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These are the same companies that fought for tariffs until they could compete? The same ones who vigorously fought higher gas mileage standards? And isn't GM the one that tried to undermine any unit that actually improved on what they were doing in Detroit? (e.g. Saturn, their China division)

Inept management. Inept unions. (I actually empathize for the rank & file.)

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Cary

December 12, 2008 4:20 AM

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Back in 2000 I was given a brand new Buick LeSabre as a service loaner during one of my Audi's many, many, many trips to the dealer for service.

With less than 500 miles on the clock the fake chrome was peeling off the column shift lever and the power window switches. I drove the car for two days before I found the cruise control switch hidden behind a steering wheel spoke (it rotated with the wheel). The stereo sounded like they spent all of $.50 on the speakers... total.

As far as safety the thing drifted all over the place when I used the brakes and the steering was so loose I needed only two fingers to drive (one on the wheel and one up my nose). In other words, this WAS my father's Oldsmobile... brand new 30 years later.

I feel sorry for the overpaid workers but GM's management and UAW greed created this mess. I have no bad feelings hearing the reports of their impending doom on my Lexus Premium Audio System.

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Anonymous

December 12, 2008 6:31 AM

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People are continually disparaging the Big Three for “building automobiles nobody wants.” The problem is, for the most part, the cars they are building are the cars we want – albeit three to five years ago.

Americans have always enjoyed the “bigger is better” mantra whether it be homes, automobiles, or food. After the gas crunch of the 1970s and enactment of guzzler laws on passenger cars, gas became cheap again. Americans still wanting the power of a high-powered V8 engine found refuge in utilitarian pickups and SUVS. The automakers responded by making these conveyances more appealing to the passenger car crowd. So more people bought them – the automakers made what people wanted.

For the most part designing and engineering an automobile takes three to five years and is extremely expensive; this explains why not only the Big 3, but even foreign automakers, were still releasing SUVs and pick-ups as the gas prices rose. So some of the new vehicles released in 2008 actually began the R&D process in 2003!

Many foreign automakers made smaller vehicles in their home markets or world markets where gas was often more expensive or the city size was favorable to smaller vehicles. So with the sudden rise in gas prices, they were in a better position to provide fuel-misers.

For the most part the Big 3 simply focused on the pickups and SUVs and did not pay attention to the passenger car market. So, when the market shifted, they were ill prepared to meet the consumer demand. This is not to say that the automobiles produced by the American automotive industry are bad cars. For instance, according to JD Power Dependability ratings, GM and Ford marquees were ranked up there with Toyota and Honda. Also, Fords were ranked the safest vehicles. But similar to the 1950s, when Ford sold safety and GM sold vehicles – today neither are selling, but the foreign automakers are.

Also, one must remember, a great deal of the non-manufacturing work for the Big 3 is done in the USA – from clerical to R&D. Not that the foreign automakers do not have offices performing those tasks here, but they don’t employ the same number.

Personally, I have owned the dead marquees of Plymouth (sedan and mini-van) and Oldsmobile. These cars performed quite well, required little maintenance, and were reliable. The sedan had over 225,000 miles on it when it was sold, and had little other than routine maintenance. The minivan had the transmission rebuilt under warranty but other that it brought me 200,000 trouble free miles. My current car, a 2001 Oldsmobile Intrigue, regularly achieves 29-30 mpg on the highway – pretty good for a car with a V6 and 111,000 on the odometer. I would not hesitate to purchase another American car, but, at the same time, I am open minded enough to peruse foreign automakers as well.

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