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Every day I hate those Linens N Things liquidators a little more.
Every day I hate those Linens N Things liquidators a little more.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-529488-100x100.png\")
I worry for the people out there in the summer heat in Florida too. If I were going to do that, I'd just make sure I had a hat and some water.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-589033-100x100.png\")
I see these \"hired contractors\" every weekend here in north jersey. They usually are holding signs for what I would I would consider bargain furniture retail stores. I always wondered how much they made and would have guessed around $50.
This woman may be a concerned citizen, but no one put a gun to the \"hired contractors\" head and made him hold the sign.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/css/images/default.gif\")
Anything goes, as long as you don't \"hold a gun to their head.\"
@glycolized: In my town there's a city ordinance against these signs. But if a business is in the big retail mall area of town the Code Enforcement Department refuses to enforce the ordinance because they don't want to make the retailers mad and they want as much advertising as possible for tax revenue.
In this part of the country it's usually Hispanic males. I report it every holiday they have sales and nothing ever gets done.
@G_Money21: You could say the same to sweat shop workers. \"Hey, no one's putting a gun to your head. There's a law firm right down the street you could work in.\"
Sarcasm aside, there has to be minimum standard for workplace safety.
@tc4b: Thank you, tc4b. A big Christmas \"frack you\" to people trying to take advantage of the homeless.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-343837-100x100.png\")
So these people were voluntarilly doing their job by standing outside and this guy decides he is going to rescue them AND pay their daily wage? Can he pay my wage today because it's -16F here in Minnesota and I am in putting myself in danger by going out to start my car this morning. So now there is zero chance of these people ever working for this contractor again since they all essentially walked off the job.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-159178-100x100.png\")
@wgrune: You think the contractor knows their name, or even remembers what they look like? Or, pays them with anything other than cash? They will work for the contractor again.
@wgrune: Your driveway is not your workplace. If you get to work and it's that cold there, call OSHA. You can get homeless people to beat eachother's brains in for money, doesn't make it right. It's taking advantage of desperate people's, uh, desperation, to get them to work for slave wages in unsafe conditions.
@wgrune: Even easier, just wait until the people freeze to death and you don't have to pay them, but you still have sign holders, right?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-83488-100x100.png\")
@wgrune: Like they say, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Beat him to death with a fish, and he'll never be hungry again.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-134363-100x100.png\")
I understand the citizen was concerned over their safety, but it's not as if they were being forced to hold the signs against their will. They agreed to holding the signs in exchange for pay.
Perhaps all they needed were warmer clothing rather than a rescue?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-98237-100x100.png\")
@wagenejm: People who are staying in shelters do not have access to \"warmer clothing.\" It's possible that the \"rescuer\" could have bought them cheap, but warm jackets, hats, gloves, and socks for less than 40 dollars (and they would have had warm clothing once they left work, too), but there are even more considerations.
People in shelters are disproportionately likely to be ill-fed, sick, scrawny, and otherwise more susceptible to severe cold. If you're going to stand people out in the bitter cold, you should choose the fat, healthy, strong workers, not the miserable creatures from the local flophouse.
Forced? Seems a bit strong. They weren't even Linens workers. It's a heartfelt and touching story during the holiday season, but the article title makes it sounds like actual employees were compelled to stand outside. Rather, these were workers who were hired to do a task and were \"bailed out\" by a kind person with some cash to spare.
I'd gladly pay a Giant's Stadium security agent (who stands outside rain (snow!) or shine to head inside. Maybe then I could take the first row unoccupied seats, for a lot cheaper than they'd be if I'd purchased the tickets in the first place.
@Drew5764: Well, someone said it better earlier, but these are not healthy, well-prepared people standing out there. I think it was really compassionate of the person bringing attention to this.
@Drew5764: I was thinking something similar. People actually pay (ticket, parking, food) to sit in the cold weather just to watch a football game so there's nothing wrong with someone being paid to hold a sign in the same weather. Of course if I was holding a sign then i'd gladly come out of the cold if someone offered to pay me what I would've made for the next 5 hours.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-439678-100x100.png\")
@calquist: I like the ones that spin the signs. It doesn't make me want to buy anything...maybe just tip the sign holders
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-570288-100x100.png\")
I really really really hate when I see those store closing signs being held by people. I don't care what the weather is like, it's degrading. I don't blame the individuals who take the jobs; a job is a job. If I needed to, I would do it too. It is the contractors who think this a good idea and don't give a #$%# about the people standing on the corner that piss me off. Major props to you, SD citizen.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-590531-100x100.png\")
@calquist: They provide a service which is perfectly legal and of value to an employer, and receive valuable consideration in return. How degrading.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-541696-100x100.png\")
i've done the sign-holding gig before, for a jo-ann fabrics store that was moving (switching from traditional store to superstore). i did it in the summer, though, so i wasn't really at any risk. except the risk of dying of boredom, i guess.
it's true that the people who signed on to do the job agreed to stand out there in the cold, but they must really be hurting for money to willingly do that. it makes one think the contractor is kind of exploiting these people because he knows no one else will do it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-505944-100x100.png\")
@sockrockinbeats: That's what I don't like about it -- you know anyone taking money to stand outside in that kind of weather is probably damn hard up for whatever pay they can get. It is exploitation, and I find it shameful that companies do it.
So is it exploitation when people work in coal mines, or other dangerous professions? In some places a coal mine is your only option if you want make a living wage so people take those dangerous jobs.
@wgrune:
Yes, it is exploitation if the mining company fails to provide its workers with adequate safety gear. We understand that some jobs are dangerous. In your example, coal mines sometimes collapse. It happens. We know that. But if it collapses because the mining company is too cheap to properly brace as they dig, or if the miners get black lung disease because the mining company was too cheap to give them proper protective equipment, then it's exploitation.
In this case, it's exploitation because these guys are going out looking for the most desperate members of society and forcing them to do degrading and dangerous work if they want a few coppers at the end of the day. The employer doesn't give a damn if the guy gets frostbite or freezes to death, and isn't willing to pay them an appropriate wage to compensate, nor I would wager did the employer provide the cold weather gear necessary to stand outside in such conditions for an extended period of time. And before you point out that it's the responsibility of the independent contractor to provide his own protective gear, I will point out that $40 a day won't get you a decent pea coat, much less the type of cold weather gear necessary to handle the kinds of temperatures we're seeing right now.
This is upper class exploitation of the working class, plain and simple. I would say it's Dickensian, but at least Bob Cratchit was able to do his work indoors, out of the wind.
How so? Both groups of people need money to survive. Both groups of people take risky jobs for not a lot of money to survive.
Come up with a better analogy instead of a two-word criticism of mine.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-121365-100x100.png\")
@sockrockinbeats:
So, the folks want money and the contractor wants to pay someone to hold a sign.... why is the exploitation and not the definition of work.
@ThomFabian: Its exploitation because of the circumstances (WEATHER). What would make it not exploitation is paying them double time for hazard pay or providing them with cold weather gear.
@ThomFabian: \"Exploitation\" and \"work\" can easily overlap. That's why we have child labor laws, occupational safety laws, overtime pay and a minimum wage.
@LandruBek: And regulations about what you can and can't offer to people volunteering for medical or other experiments (and usually independent review of what you plan to do). Flawed system, but the rationale is the same: people desperate for money will do things that endanger their health, and society should not exploit that to the limit.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-267895-100x100.png\")
@ThomFabian: Why is it exploitation?
Because the pay doesn't adequately cover the risks but the person needs the pay so they can't really say no.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-52435-100x100.png\")
The real key to this story is revealed in this line:
After that exchange, the resident says he took the workers to Union Gospel Mission in downtown Sioux Falls, a place where the workers had reportedly been staying for food and shelter.
I'm not into that whole \"class warfare\" thing, but this is a clear example of greedy people exploiting the powerless.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-91598-100x100.png\")
@Applekid: Our local paper had a story on these sign holders and it said that many or all of them are homeless. Easy source of recruitment for a no-skill job I guess.
Me, I have no respect for the tactics - using loopholes to get away with obnoxious advertising.
@Applekid: Yes...I know we've brought sign holders cups of coffee before. It's not as cold out here as up there though. Today was the coldest, and even then we were still above the negative numbers.
It's only seventy degrees in my office. Please come rescue me. Will cuddle for warmth if rescued by the right person!
So for all of the people essentially saying \"Hey, they took the job, they need to suck it up\": do you really think if you were living in a shelter and someone offered you a job you would turn it down? Do you think someone living in a shelter is going to have proper clothing to stand outside in subzero weather? I am really surprised how callous some people can be.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-184636-100x100.png\")
These sign-wavers in my area START at $12 an hour and I've seen some starting at $15 or more. And this city has ridiculously low wages (two people making $11 an hour mostly fulltime is above the median household income).
The weather's bad, that's for sure, but there's a lot worse they could be doing. If they're employing the homeless who may be stuck outside all day, why not give them a sign and wages for it? There aren't a lot of job opportunities for the homeless, at least there's this one for a few hours a day.
@duncanfj: After attending school , working, and helping out in a soup kitchen/food pantry in Newark, NJ, I can say that most homeless people are damn good at staying warm. I have seen homeless people sharing tips on how to take everyday \"garbage\" and use it as insulation. The biggest thing that sucks the heat out of you is the wind/rain. As long as you block the wind, you can stay very warm very easily.
@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★:
Uh, sorry, but \"Hey, they can wrap themselves in garbage and stay warm, so everything's fine\" seems to be what you're putting forward here. Any society with as much wealth as ours that allows situations where citizens have to wrap themselves in refuse to survive is fundamentally flawed.
@shadowkahn: I'm not saying to survive. I am saying that if people these people are homeless as the article seems to imply, that they know how to insulate themselves for a day of standing behind a sign. I myself picked up a few \"tips\", and have used them when working around my farm. A simple pair of rubber gloves will turn so-so gloves into warm waterproof gloves when worn underneath. As usual in cold weather, you should try not to get too warm as sweating is NOT good in cold weather. It makes the heat from your body flow right out of you to the outside. I am just saying that if you are bundled up correctly, the only bad thing about standing still for hours on end is the boredom you must endure.
@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: Well, you know it's cold when the usually-trash-insulated homeless are staying shelters, right?
@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: I'm not saying to survive. I am saying that if people these people are homeless as the article seems to imply, that they know how to insulate themselves for a day of standing behind a sign.
I'm a Sioux Falls resident, and I can tell you that \"insulating themselves for a day\" wasn't going to cut it yesterday - there were sustained 15 MPH winds and below-zero temperatures the entire day (the high was 0). Linens-N-Things is on a wide street, so there wouldn't have been much cover from the wind once they were away from the building.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-389492-100x100.png\")
@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: yep, using newspaper [or any paper that's available] leaves, anything that creates small pockets of 'dead air' in layers of clothing is a primary cold weather survival skill. it's why snow makes a great insulator too - teeny pockets of non moving air are packed in there with the snow.
@duncanfj:
My issue with the situation would be if they didn't have enough clothing to be warm. I don't know if thats the case, and if that is the sole objection then I get the orignal post.
However many of the respinses in this thread have acted as if being paid to hold a sign was exploitation in itself. Its a low level job for sure, but like all job its an arrangement between the worker and the employer and both agree to the terms.
Now, if the folks look endangered due to temperature, get on the phone and give let the employer know that you are calling OHSA unless the folks are given better clothing for the temperature.
But the job, in itself, isn't exploitive.
I hate to do this, but I must take issue with the title of this story. I read the title thinking this as some Linen & Things employees being locked out of a store waiting for someone to let them in to work, and they couldn't leave for fear of getting fired.
I am from Central NJ, and live near Route 9. Route 9 is \"plagued\" with sign holders, to the point where local governments are passing laws to stop this practice. You can tell the \"veteran\" workers by their ability to be asleep and hold the sign up at the same time. These people aren't \"forced\". They work willingly, and know what the job is, and dress accordingly. This really sounds like someone who thinks they know \"better\" than the people who \"are obviously being taken advantage of\", which they aren't. Sorry if I stepped on anyones toes.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-471775-100x100.png\")
@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: I'm not going to repeat myself from above (go find my earlier post). But I feel I need to what I said for your \"benefit.\"
I have no problem with hiring sign holders. It's annoying to a lot of people. And it doesn't really work that well in many people's opinion. It's also a pretty crappy job.
But it's usually not a dangerous job. As long as people stay back far enough from the street, it's no more risky then walking down the sidewalk. In 70 degree weather, I really have no issue with this form of \"work.\"
But when it's below zero outside, and you can get frostbite in a matter of minutes, then it's exploitation. And it's not right.
People who have to work in those conditions should always have ample breaks and access to a warm environment to take those breaks in. I'm quite sure these people were not offered breaks, much less a warm place to take those breaks in. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I don't believe I am.
@plamoni: What about very hot weather? Do you take issue then? What I am saying is that many of these people do this job a lot. Around me, you can see the same guy on Rt. 9 every week, in addition to new faces. This is the guy who can fall asleep holding up the sign, so he's good at what he does. You know the \"new\" people b/c they don't have a walkman/radio or a book to read.
I understand frostbite can occur in minutes. But if you are prepared to do the job, you know what the job entails. I doubt some guy in shorts is volunteering to do the job of standing outside, then is \"surprised\" that it's cold. If I was doing this job, I know what out of my wardrobe I would wear to keep the wind out, which is what really gets you cold. I also know some \"cheats\" you can use to take everyday items and make them cold weather gear. When we would have snowball fights at the grocery store I worked at, most people would stop after awhile b/c their gloves got wet and then their hands got cold. I would slip a pair of rubber gloves under my normal gloves, and my hands wouldn't get wet. Surprisingly, the worst thing you can do is be too warm. Once you break a sweat, it works against you in the cold weather. As your clothes get wet, they wick the heat away from your body very quickly, and you can't stop it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-669366-100x100.png\")
@NHTOB_GitEmSteveDave loves->★: I used to drive 9 every day, but 18's got a fair bit now with the downturn. I'll admit, the first time I saw a sign holder in bad weather (outside CompUSA in Freehold), my first thought was, \"That poor guy,\" thinking that he was just the unlucky one of the crew that was chosen for that rotten job that shift. Honestly, as long as one knows what they're getting into, it can be a fine thing, but I hope to never be in the position. If any of them pop up on my new commute, I'll be stopping by a convenience store to get them a coffee. Just because they chose it doesn't mean they have to suffer.
the same thing happened here in millbury, ma
the the workers were out in the cold blizzard like conditions, standing on medians in a dangerous intersection
cant help but to feel bad :(
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-119816-100x100.png\")
I hate this business of having people standing around holding signs. What, exactly is the point of getting people desperate for cash to stand arounf for hours in all sorts of weather to hold up a sign? They can't plant the sign in the ground?
This is one of those bullshit businesses, where some guy thinks he's \"doing them a favor\" by giving them work I wouldn't even want animals to do, paying them a tiny wage. Maybe they did sign up for this, but that doesn't mean that people can be treated as cattle.
They aren't allowed to plant the signs in the gound. Most cities have ordinances against placing temporary signs in the ground, especially on city property. Otherwise every business on earth would plant a flippin' sign on street corners for free advertising. The \"solution\" is to have a person hold a sign, which to my knowledge, is not illegal.
@NefariousNewt: That is exactly it. Most governments have made laws against planting signs in the ground. By me, there would literally be 20-30 signs in a hundred foot stretch of road advertising the same business. It was an eyesore, and also became a hazard/liability when the signs were never removed as they would get blown into the road and then you had to have somebody remove them before you could mow the medians. In NJ, after an election, you have 7-10 days to remove your political signs before they start hitting the party with fines. So some \"smart\" person realized that if a person was holding the sign, and they weren't \"loitering\" on private property, they could legally hold a sign/advertisement and could get around the fines and also the printing cost of hundreds of signs.
@NefariousNewt:
Nope legally they can't plant the sign in the ground in most of those places. This is simply a way to get around the sign laws in place in many locations.
That said, other than the safety issue due to the temperature, I don't get your objetion to the business. Folks need work and money. The company needs folks to hold signs. They agree on a deal.
I see nothing exploitive about that in and of itself.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-680922-100x100.png\")
G_Money21 -
I too am in North Jersey.
See these sign holder guys on Route 46 and sometimes near the Willowbrook Mall.
As for these guys standing out there...hey a job's a job.
I had the job of wearing a stupid chicken costume for a restaurant that was opening years ago.
I see so many people making the same comment. Essentially, someone with no education, during a recession, of their own free will, chooses to hold a sign. Right. If that were true, there would be no sweat shops and no prostitution.
Wealthy people have free will. The poor have to survive.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-103766-100x100.png\")
Wait, so he took people from a shelter who were working for a wage, stopped them from working, and gave them a handout for their \"opportunity cost\"?
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal. I wish we had more busybodies like that around here!
um... i see all these people saying that no one forced the workers to stand out there with the signs .... but also, i seriously doubt that the 'concerned citizen' kidnapped them to take them back to the shelter.
and how did the OP know where they wanted to go to get warm if they didn't say?
obviously they also LEFT the job of their own free will, probably after realizing just what they had gotten themselves into.
and had it been me calling the liquidator, i wouldn't have said 'i'm a concerned citizen' - i would have said 'i'm a potential customer'
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-54738-100x100.png\")
You mean to tell me that if some stranger came up to you and said they would pay your wages for the day if they came with you, you would say no?
You wouldn't tell them to mind their own business?
@Trick: actually, i wouldn't take that offer. but i have an excellent, emotionally rewarding and physically cushy job that pays really well.
obviously i am not in the position these folks are in and since i wasn't there, i am not going to be able to have an adequately informed opinion on what the liquidator, the OP or the signholders did.
it may or may not have been an ok thing on all sides. but the OP didn't commit a crime by offering those folks a chance to leave and they had good intentions when they did it.
... but you know what they say about that road that's paved with good intentions.....
Good lord, was $40 bucks for the whole day, sub-minimum wage? Six hours? Four? The sign holders near me -- in good weather -- are working way too hard if they're getting less than $15 per hour, because they're not just wood post replacements, they do tricks and acrobatics with the signs.
What rules exist vis-a-vis workers -- independent or employees -- and weather? Do security guards making rounds have an exposure time limit?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-132691-100x100.png\")
@bobpence: The ones that I've seen in three different cities lately doing liquidation work are not sign spinners, they are people that stand at the intersection. The spinners are usually for more upbeat stuff than liquidators.
@gyroball: $40 in cash under the table for someone living in a homeless shelter isn't chump change. It is close to minimum wage's take home pay I suspect - which when you are homeless is very hard to get employed by anywhere paying that much. You aren't doing anything illegal or dangerous like unregulated construction.
I\"m not saying it is ok to put people out there in freezing weather but it isn't horrible overall during decent weather.
@bobpence: Assuming this was like when I worked at Kmart, that 40 bucks is under the table. So it's worth a bit more than it first appears.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-111651-100x100.png\")
holy crap!@lulfas: 8 hours, 40 bucks 5 bucks an hour. I don't think it's worth more than it appears.
@bobpence: Independent contractors can be paid anything.
Now, were they really independent contractors? The law is clear on independent contractors. If they have the right to set the hours you must be at work and the conditions under which you work (8-5 on this street corner, take 15-minute breaks every four hours, for example), if you cannot choose how to do the job and how long it will take, if you bring nothing to the job but yourself and all materials for the job are provided by the hirer, if you are trained by the hirer to do the job in question, then YOU ARE AN EMPLOYEE!! You are an employee even if your employer is a contractor.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-156594-100x100.png\")
@bobpence: Costumed characters at sea world, above 90 degrees: 15 minutes on, 30 minutes off, plus safety equipment (employer provided frequent changes of boxers and t-shirts, plus an ice vest).
Loading groceries in cleveland winters at the supermarket in high-school: 15 on, 15 off.
Of course, the first job was with a huge company with a serious commitment to safety, the other was with a unionized store, and both were employing mostly white middle class kids.
Some people have a very strange understanding of choice. Yeah, no one put a gun to the head of any of the sign holders, but that doesn't mean they had a free choice. What they had was a highly constrained choice. The acceptable level of constraint is an ethical and moral issue. I'd say that no one should ever be in a situation where they have to choose between holding a sign in the bitter cold and nothing. That they had to make this choice says something about all of us, and about the kind of society we live in, not about them.
As for everyone who said something like, \"rescue me I have to start my car and it's only 70 degrees in my office,\" you just don't get it. Some people really, actually have it worse than you -- and it's not because you're smarter, or because you work harder, or because you're a better or tougher person. It's luck and randomness. Any of us could end up in that situation, and if we did we'd be pretty happy if someone helped us out instead if saying I got mine, get yours, not my problem.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-6536-100x100.png\")
As for everyone who said something like, \"rescue me I have to start my car and it's only 70 degrees in my office,\" you just don't get it.
@Skybolt: I think they just don't care. Someone got something for 'free' and it's \"OMGsounfair!\".
I hate to blame the consumer here, but I agree with the majority that noone forced those people to carry the signs. They chose to be sign carriers instead of an executive of a multinational bank splitting almost $2B in taxpayer money in bonuses. That was their choice and they should live with it.
On second thought, since this is Sioux Falls, that's pretty bad.
My acid test on this would be \"Are any other laborers outside working right now?\"
If yes, then these folks might have just needed more clothes/food to stay warm. But I sort of doubt that late December is prime landscaping and construction season in that area.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-326595-100x100.png\")
I think most of the people spouting off about how the workers were doing this voluntarily have never been in an environment where it's so cold that being out for more than 5 minutes is a hazard to your health. It was below zero! Those people could've gotten serious frostbite on any piece of exposed skin. What the \"contractor\" was doing is abusive and should be investigated.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-453882-100x100.png\")
@dumblonde: Minneapolis, MN. Feel free to Google how cold it is here. I bet you think it's abuse to even LIVE here.
And I am still \"spouting off\" about how the workers were doing this voluntarily.
However I still see it as a \"charitable\" thing, since a pole with a sign would do the job just as well.
Im surprised it took this long for the socioeconomic issues to be brought up.
What do the labor laws say about employer's duty to equip their workers with appropriate protection against workplace hazards (in this case bitter cold)? Or knowingly expose them to dangerous conditions?
What are the other work conditions? How many hours are they supposed to stand their with the signs? Do they get breaks? Are those conditions lawful?
saw the same thing here in Indy yesterday in below zero windchill's.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-87429-100x100.png\")
Lol, when I worked as a parking lot monitor in college, we had to stand at the entrance of parking lots for hours on end, sometimes at night, to prevent students from entering restricted lots. Shifts were usually 2-3 hours, but sometimes you'd have to pull a 5-6 hour shift, in temps that could get around 0 or below.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-446064-100x100.png\")
@Saboth: When I was in college I worked for a friends nursery business during holiday weekends and Christmas. That meant sitting at a table in all temperatures selling Trees and plants. Including snow, cold and heat. The pay was shit, but it was easy work, I basically zoned out except when a sale was happening.
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I honestly believe that the title should be changed. It flat out says that they were Linen N Things employees when they were in fact not. But I guess that you need Linen and Things in the title to trick people into reading the article. If you substitute 'Linens N Things Workers' with 'a couple of sign holders' nobody would read it, because nobody gives a crap about those people. Sign holders know that they HAVE TO work outside. They chose that job. I know if I had a job that REQUIRED outdoor work, I would take note of the local climate and season, and decide if I want to pursue that career based on that info. It isn't like the title of the article leads you to believe, where you have some cashier show up for work and their manager gives them a sign and said \"Get out there!\" The sign holders knew what they were signing up for.
Nice Bait-n-Switch Consumerist.
It flat out says that they were Linen N Things employees when they were in fact not.
@Mr.SithNinja: Contracting out work does not absolve Linens N Things of responsibility.
@Rectilinear Propagation: Actually, that is exactly what it does. They hired a contractor because they don't want their own people to do it. That shows that they DO have compassion for their people. If they can find people who WANT to get paid to do it, then how does that make it wrong for them to do so?
@Mr.SithNinja: \"They chose that job. I know if I had a job that REQUIRED outdoor work, I would take note of the local climate and season, and decide if I want to pursue that career based on that info.\"
Did you read any of the other comments on this article before posting? This isn't a career.. this is a \"If I don't hold this sign, my family won't eat tonight\".
And what does the title actually matter? Was your time wasted because you wanted to read about Linens and Things employees? 'Gosh, if a LAT employee was exploited... that would be terrible, but a contractor's employee: big deal!'
@calquist: You should calm down there a bit. The word \"career\" was obviously used in a sarcastic way. (At least I thought it was, but for you, next time I will break out the Crayons to draw that picture for you)
And YES the title matters. When the title says \"Linen N Things WORKERS FORCED to Stand in Sub-Zero Weather\", the statement is false for 2 reasons. 1. They are NOT Linen N Things workers. 2. Nobody can claim that they were \"forced\" to do anything. They CHOSE to get paid to do it. Try as you may, you can't refute that.
Your snide comment \"Gosh, if a LAT employee was exploited... that would be terrible, but a contractor's employee: big deal!\" is actually dead on in this case. A LAT employee showing up for work and being told they have to stand outside in subzero weather would be messed up. That probably wasn't in their job description; where as, in the case of the \"contractor\" it is basically their ENTIRE job description.
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I'm hereby nominating liquidation companies for the annual \"Worst Company In America\" awards.
I saw a couple nightclub doorguys standing outside all night Saturday when I went out - but I didn't rescue them either...
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The law, in its infinite majesty, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets and to steal bread\" - Anatole France.
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I get the distinct feeling that these \"independent contractors\" wouldn't pass the smell test with the IRS, meaning they should really be treated as employees. That means you, the taxpayer, and the workers are cheated out of:
* Proper tax withholding
* Social Security tax
* Unemployment coverage
* Workers compensation coverage
* Required breaks
Just because you say they are contractors doesn't make them contractors. It's usually a way for someone to get the help without paying the full cost.
Get used to it. We will become a band of vultures picking at the carcass of our once proud nation.
Brother can you spare a dime.
I don't see anything wrong with a company providing job to unskilled laborers. These people who are obviously down on their luck were willing to actually get out and do something for themselves. That benefits the liquidator, it benefits those workers, and it benefits society as a whole.
I think it's great when somebody stops and shows compassion toward his fellow man. You should be applauded.
But let's not demonize the business. I think offering somebody a chance to work for his own keep, is every bit as noble and more beneficial to those disadvantaged in the long run.
Going to be interesting to see how, if present trends continue in this country, you comfortable middle class types react to being one of the half million a month that are being outsourced, downsized or otherwise displaced from the ranks of people with jobs.
And don't even get me started on these \"independent contractors\". I live in a part of the country where that crap is a way of life and if you have even the slightest inkling of the meaning of the word \"exploitation\", you'll have some idea of the type of person it takes to become one.
Those workers were simply doing the best they could under some horrendous circumstances beyond their control. Read up on America's new labor contractor industry, and you'll have no trouble knowing who the \"bad guy\" is here.
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I'm gonna be crazy and go against the trend here! I think that the guy did a really great thing. Who cares whether the workers were delighted to be in the cold, or magically immune? This guy helped out people during Christmas and it's a nice story.
It guess it was a nice thing to do. The cold workers probably liked getting out of doing their work for the day and still getting paid and all..
I just see this more as a \"look at how great I am\" story because some busy-body interfered for no other reason than because they could. Oh well, they got their 15 minutes.
@wgrune: There are a few differences between coal mines and the sign holding gigs. First, if a miner works eight hours underground, they are paid closer to $75-$100 for that day, not $40. Second, there are certain regulations mines have to live up to in order to keep the miners safe. These regulations are not there for the sign holders. Third, for all the times mines collapse, and it is in the news, there are many, many mines that do not collapse and are not likely to collapse any time soon.
So, with these differences, you cannot really compare coal mining to standing out on the corner holding a sign. The differences in risks are just too different. Where one might just need cold weather gear to stand out holding these signs, there are many, many things mines have to do to ensure the safety of the workers. The very magnitude of these differences make the two incomparable. Especially since the sign holders are likely those who are not given proper safety gear in order to keep from freezing, while those in the mines and other occupations are given the gear and have the regulations aimed at keeping them as safe as possible.
So lt me get this right. A few people decide to get job and contribute to the economy whether their goal was to take the money and try to get back on their feet or just buy alcohol. A guy says they are working too hard holding signs in cold weather and pays them what for work they didn't do then tells takes them to a facility where they can live off of tax payers' money instead of their own. In the mean time, the liquidator goes and get immigrant workers to do the same job for half the price. Granted, neither one are tax payers but why are we teaching people to live off the government instead of working for a living. Ask your grandparents or great-grandparents how hard they had to work. If everyone was management material, no work would ever get done. Hey! I've got an idea. Let's move the all the auto makers to Mexico where it is cheaper to make cars then simply import everything into the United States like vegetables, fruit, and air because we can get air cheaper from overseas. Lets not keep any blue collar jobs here at all because we don't have those type of people here in the US only white collar workers and homeless.
I'm so amazed with the lack of compassion in these posts. What, poor people somehow deserve to be poor? Homeless people aren't like you or me, it's okay to treat them badly? When was $5 an hour good money? 1991?
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Funny that I read this just now. Co-workers and I just got back from lunch and we saw a few of these guys standing around. Their signs were zip-tied to street signs and parking signs, but I guess they have to stand with them for legal reasons.. ??
It's not sub-zero here, but it's close. We were also wondering what those guys make.. We guessed $50.
Garden City, NY.
Last winter I volunteered at a homeless shelter. One day one of the regulars was very excited because he got a job holding signs just like those. He had to pick 5 other friends to go with him and it turned into quite a frenzy. He told me how much he would earn, but I honestly cannot remember.
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I've never understood why businesses hire people to hold signs, when a damn POLE is perfectly capable of doing the job. I feel very bad for people that have to hold signs. I see them here in Oklahoma all year round. There's one middle aged man who's been doing it for years at CiCi's Pizza & he looks so worn down & depressed it's not even funny. He's out there in 105-degree heat & 10-degree cold. And he's probably only making $6.50 an hour.
Having actually BEEN desperate enough to take a shit job for peanuts, I am appalled at all the elitists here, blaming the sign-holders for being poor enough to take the job. What is wrong with all of you? Just because you've been pampered from birth & have the option of just \"being a bank executive\" and \"splitting $2B in taxpayer money in bonuses\" doesn't mean we all do. You cant just CHOOSE to be rich. I've been CHOOSING to be rich my whole life but it ain't happened yet. Not all of us have connections or the money to go to college, so some of us have to take shit jobs so we can afford to eat.
I sincerely hope that all of you elitist snobs lose your mansions & everything you own. I hope you have to stay in a homeless shelter & work minimum wage jobs out in the freezing cold or the blistering heat just to avoid starving to death. Then, you can show us all how easy it is to just GET RICH again! Then we can all follow your example & we'll ALL be rich!!!
Gimme a @#$%ing break.
@kabuk1:
Amen brother! I couldn't have said it better my self.
I'd like some rich silver foot in mouth exec to switch places with me for a month. Then he can \"chose\" to be rich and show everyone how easy it is.
While I dine with kings and queens, he can just scrape by doing shit work and eat pork and beans.,
I've never understood why businesses hire people to hold signs, when a damn POLE is perfectly capable of doing the job.
@kabuk1: It's to get around the laws/ordinances that say you can't just put up a sign in the area they want these signs at. They can't get in trouble for posting a sign if they don't actually post it and no one's going to pass a law making it illegal to loiter on the side of the road so they have people hold the signs.
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$40?!?!?!?! That's it!?!?!?!?
wow - What Jerks!!!
I'd say that's taking advantage of an unfortunate situation
I have no idea who the good sam was that took these people to the mission to get warm but good for them! I live in Sioux Falls and it was beyond cold this weekend. NOBODY should have been out in that weather. The media and the local authorities had been telling people to not go out and don't travel unless your prepared and only if you have to. It was not standing on the streetcorner weather. The temp was around -12 and with the wind chill it was -23 at the warmest the entire weekend.
Hmm. When they did that in my town they used mostly homeless people and just gave them $$ to stand out with signs.
Darn them for giving jobs to the homeless! To heck with them earning an honest living, and where they were often outside ANYWAY.
Well of course I would rather the homeless find a job. That is not the issue as I am sure everyone here wants to see them work and make a living so they are no longer a burden on society.
The issue is that these contractors are taking advantage of desperate people. $40 a day to fight for your life on some Artic subzero street corner is not a job. Its bull shit.
I spoke to a 'sign holder' in my area once while I was waiting for the light to change, and I asked him how much he made doing that job. He told me he wasn't getting paid, but that he was doing community service hours!
I really like the sign twirlers for little caeser's pizza, man they know how to play air guitar on those signs.
That's great. Take someone who is off their ass trying to earn money, and pluck them up and just give them cash. It is no wonder our country is infested with people who want something for nothing.
It seems that many people are really missing the point. These are desperate people who are being paid to stand oustide in weather where it isn't SAFE to stand outside. These workers were at real risk for frostbite or death. How can anyone say that's a reasonable risk for someone to take -- even \"voluntarily.\"
If these were dogs, chained to a pole outside in those temperatures, the dogs would be confiscated, and the owners would be charged with a criminal offense.
Interesting points here? The Independent Contractor can wash his hands of any responsibility because A: They don't require a uniform B: they are just outside and tell the sign holders to wear whatever. Your holding a sign and I'm sorry but that is minimum wage work. I work outside part of the day and If I don't bring my coat I work cold. Simple as that.
I don't think these folks needed to be rescued. It may not have been a great job but it was work nonetheless and I suspect most of them went back the next day - that is if they still had these temp jobs waiting. $40 one day is not going to equal $200 for a week's work so they will be going back if they can. That's good money if you are in a shelter.
If the outraged person in the story wanted to do something positive, I think they needed to let go of the idea of interfering with the job itself but instead offer them gloves, socks, hats, feet warmers, chairs, coffee or even just a good lunch. Anything to make their load lighter.
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This is the shittiest of all jobs. Not only does it provide ungainful, degrading employment, it increases visual pollution, and benefits mostly unsavory companies (liquidators, developers, dating sites, free cell phones etc..)
I feel bad for the people who have been reduced to this, and am disgusted that companies would pay someone to do this.
I think the people bleating about these workers having a 'choice' clearly know little or nothing about economics, or capitalism, for that matter.
And if anything its their own guilty consciences preferring to pretend that the slaves at the bottom end of their society's rather merciless system 'have a choice.'
Well, the poor of America do have a choice: starve, or do whatever those fractionally higher on the power-ladder want - which includes freezing to death in order to advertise a store.
This is the reality of the USA. Forget Hollywood imagery of rags to riches - and 'choice.'
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I'm very familiar with this situation, as I work next to a place where a group of these Linens 'N Things sign-holders work, and we often take our morning breaks together and chat.
They are hired/recruited from homeless shelters in the area. They are paid $30-$40 a day to start, for a 5-6 hour workday, paid daily. They get their corner and signs, and stand for the duration of the shift, no matter the weather.
The difficulties with this are that when you are standing mostly still, you cannot move to generate warmth, so you quickly get cold. The people I talk with wear several layers of clothing in Phoenix, when the temps are in the 40s-60s, and they are cold. If you see one of these people waving frantically, they aren't just trying to draw attention to the store, they're trying to stay warm.
I'm very disturbed by the many people on here whose philosophy of work is \"a job at all costs.\" That philo has already led to considerable decline in wages, work and living standards in the U.S. over the past 30 years, and with the current economic circumstances, it is possible things will get much worse.
Many times when people \"agree\" to a job, they are agreeing to a situation where they have not been told many of the important details of the job, and they are frequently lied to. How many of you have taken a job only to find out after the fact that the job was much different than the job you agreed to?
\"Hired Contractor\" = Drug junkie
It's sad to say, but its true.
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Folks should read \"Nickle and Dimed\" by Barbara Ehrenreich.
For those who keep comforting themselves with \"oh, I live in a cold place,\" and \"oh, it's cold in NY state... they can just deal,\" here are some facts for you:
1) 12/21/2008: Sioux City, SD -- The high temp was 0°F (about -18°C). (Data courtesy of weather.com: http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/USSD0243?month=-1) The high in Rochester, NY on that same day was 33°F. Thirty-three degrees can make a whole heck of a lot of difference to someone standing outside.
2) It was a windy day. Wind chill on a moderately windy day (say, 18 mph) would have made that high temp feel more like -22°F and would have put the people at risk of frostbite within about 30 minutes. Mind you, this would be the wind chill during the -warmest- part of the day.
And, of course, those who start to suffer from hypothermia are generally unaware of when hypothermia is truly setting in.
See:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/hypothermia/DS00333
Heck, see Wikipedia, while you're at it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia
Those facts can sure get in the way of feeling all self-righteous, can't they?
Legal or not, it is unethical to ask people to endanger themselves for a few bucks, even if those people are desperate enough to say, \"Sure, I'll do that for a dollar.\" As kabuk1 so eloquently said, a pole is far better at holding a sign than a person and can do so in the most inhospitable of conditions.
Oh, I know... I've done fed the trolls, what with my fancy talk of ethics. I'm sure there'll be plenty of ersatz Objectivists -all- over _this_.
Even if one were to take a post-critique view of ethics over, say, normative ethics, you'd still have to come to the conclusion -- enforceable or not -- that the choice presented to the desperate in this case was, ultimately, an unethical one. Just because you -can- keep costs down in a particular way doesn't mean you -should-. Heck, even China is learning -that- lesson, slowly but surely.
In one sense, the workers agreed to be out there. They could have walked away. It's obvious they wanted to when they went willingly with the guy to the mission. It was nice to give the workers the $40, too.
I've seen sign holders out in Oswego, NY for a furniture store before in VERY cold weather. Why I never thought they were at risk was the giant signs on the poles they were holding blocked their whole body from wind.
@OmniZero: In San Antonio, TX, during August a few years back, some bbq place down the street hired some kid to dress up in a full body costume (Cow, of course) to stand on the corner with a sign. Dunno if you've ever been in one of these mascot type costumes, but they can raise the temperature at least 20 degrees. Combine that with the fact it's AUGUST in SOUTH TEXAS...yeah. Turns out the kid had Downs Syndrome, as well. Not much of a point to my comment, 'cept that sometimes they really might not know better.
@OmniZero: That's ridiculous. Exploiting homeless or poor people is not okay. I bet that when you heard about the \"bum fights\" videos, you said, \"it's okay, because they're paying those guys to beat the crap out of each other, so they obviously have a choice!\"
Furthermore, you'd probably not have a problem with migrant workers getting sub-minimum wage and working in horrible conditions because they \"choose\" that job.
It's just not true. We as a society do not believe it is okay to take someone in a desperate situation and exploit that situation for our own benefit, regardless of whether it may put that person in danger.
These people are people. That's what the \"good Samaritan\" realized and others seemed to have missed. If I offered a homeless guy 40 bucks to jump in front of a car, people would be outraged. But for some reason, offering someone 40 bucks to stand in equally life-threatening cold weather for 6 hours is okay? I don't think so.
I commend the person who got these people out of the cold. Forty bucks isn't worth lost fingers or toes, or a case of hypothermia. This is pure exploitation, and it's not okay.
@OmniZero: Just thinking of Oswego makes me cringe. I only visited there once (to see a girlfriend in college) and gosh was that the most depressing place ever.
@OmniZero: When poverty meets human desperation, common sense becomes an academic measurement and not much else. Let's look at prostitution and Bumfights for an easy example.
@OmniZero: It's 40 bucks, man, no one stands out in freezing weather all day for 40 bucks if they have options. It's exploiting their desperation. Plus, I seriously doubt these people have sufficient cold weather gear to be out there for that long. The reason you do this with independent contractors is you have to pay employees if their fingers drop off.
@OmniZero: This time of year $40 can make a biiiiig difference...
It's like offering a bottle of muddy nasty water to man who hasn't had anything to drink for days. Odds are he's going to drink it.
@OmniZero: It says the workers were staying at the shelter, which means they probably have very limited employment options. It is an employer's responsibility to make sure that employees have a safe work environment. That's why OSHA exists. Sure, they could have gone inside or walked off the job, but they probably really needed that $40. It was 4F here on Saturday and -3 Sunday. I couldn't be outside for more than five minutes without feeling pain in every exposed inch of skin (like my nose and eyes). Cold weather is dangerous and, at a certain point, no amount of bundling up - unless you have some serious outdoor gear, which I doubt these people have -is going to help.