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dangergirljones
December 17, 2008 11:31 PM
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Amanda needs to walk up to Pam with all of her big Dillard shopping bags and say


\"I came in here recently and you refused to help me....... But Mistake\" while shaking her bags to show how much buying power she has.

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3 replies
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MikeH30
December 20, 2008 8:44 PM
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@dangergirljones:

and that salesperson would care 0%

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Lee J. Jones
December 19, 2008 5:47 PM
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@dangergirljones: A \"but\" mistake? As in, \"you said my butt was too big?\" Ha!

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biggeek
December 19, 2008 9:02 AM
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@dangergirljones:

\"Pretty Woman\" called...They want their dialogue back.

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jaya9581
December 17, 2008 11:31 PM
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There may have been no material damage, but poor Pam is owed at the very least an apology. There is no need to get into the why of anything, a simple answer of \"We are a smaller store and have a smaller plus-sized department\" is sufficient.

I've had a hard time finding plus-sized dresses myself. Check out David's Bridal - their customer service blows but you can generally get a cute dress off the rack for the same or less than Macy's would charge, they have a lot of shorter, less-formal options and most of their dresses go up to 26.

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19 replies
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howie_in_az
December 18, 2008 7:51 PM
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@jaya9581: \"We're sorry that you're fat and poor and had a bad experience at one of our stores. We take tact very seriously and will use this event to retrain employees.\"

I'm willing to bet that will be Macy's reply.

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agency
December 18, 2008 3:41 AM
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So you'd rather have the employee hide the truth from you or embellish it? I think that it was nice that the employee explained the situation exactly the way it was while remaining polite. Quite frankly, it makes good business sense. Given limited shelf space, a store should sell only the most popular items that fit. And because the employee was black, there's no way you can accuse her of being racist against black people.

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annieo
December 18, 2008 8:33 AM
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@agency:
She wasn't told \"the truth\". the truth would have been \"sorry, even though the average american dress size is 14, and over a third of american women wear a size 16 or up, our store just doesn't want fat people shopping here\". Fat people want to look good too. They like clothes just as much as any other 'demographic'. I have a lot of fat friends and they are always talk9ing about how they don't want to have to buy the shapeless, unstylish items made primarily for older women available in places like lane bryant. Fat women have money, fat women have a social life, and fat women have office christmas parties to go to. The lack of clothing options available in their sizes is not cause they won't buy them, it's because of fatphobia.

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bonzombiekitty
December 18, 2008 2:28 PM
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@annieo: Because we all know that the general size of people is consistent throughout geographical location, income level, etc.

Just because 1/3 of the overall population has a size 16 or up does not mean that 1/3rd of the people who frequent (or would shop at a given store should the size be available to them) are a size 16 or up.

Local demographics is a perfectly valid argument for not stocking certain sizes or styles. Now, whether or not the local demographic argument is true or not, I don't know. A given store is going to stock more plus sizes in say, downtown philadelphia (which has more lower income people, who for various reasons tend to be more overweight) than would a store in King of Prussia (20 minutes outside of philadelphia, which is in fairly affluent subrubs and has a high class mall).

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KiddChaos
December 18, 2008 9:05 PM
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@bnzmbktty: Whr r y cmng p wth ths sht? D y hv sttstcs, stds, CTL PRF t bck p yr bllsht sttmnts, r r y jst tlkng t f yr ss?

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annieo
December 18, 2008 8:06 PM
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@bonzombiekitty: are you saying there are no fat well-off housewives in king of prussia? what are you talking about? where are these supposed statistics that low-income people tend to be fatter? Hang out anywhere where there are middle-aged middle-class housewives, and you will find PLENTY of size 16+ women. There are many fat women in all income brackets. the constant complaint from fat women- in life and in the blogosphere (try Fatshionista or Fat Girls Like Nice Clothes Too, or read the comments on this thread) is that they want to be able to buy cute clothes. Clearly they have money to spend, the problem is where to spend it.

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TheUncleBob
December 18, 2008 2:18 AM
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@jaya9581: \"There is no need to get into the why of anything, a simple answer of \"We are a smaller store and have a smaller plus-sized department\" is sufficient.\"

So... the answer is that the store employee should have lied to the customer?

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bobcatred
December 18, 2008 10:46 PM
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@TheUncleBob: As opposed to making an offensive speech about how she was too fat/poor/etc for them to bother stocking clothes for her? Uh, yeah. At the very least she drove off a paying customer (The woman may not be able to find clothes there, but she was still more than capable of buying shoes, jewelry, purses and makeup from Macy's) and at worst, she set in motion what could amount to some very bad publicity for Macy's. Bad business.
I doubt the woman who left the store crying would be nearly so upset if she had just been told the store had a smaller plus-sized department and had been referred to the Highland Mall store (as a store with a larger plus sized department), without the unnecessary explanation about how the store thinks fat women must be black or poor.

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jaya9581
December 18, 2008 2:48 AM
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@TheUncleBob: Who said anything about a lie? If the store were larger, they would carry more items.

The employee's comments were both insensitive and racist. Her managers should retrain her in the proper way to speak to customers and about people, and the customer deserves an apology for being on the receiving end of the thinly-veiled insults.

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Gann
December 18, 2008 5:42 PM
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@jaya9581: Way to confuse racial with racist. Nothing the employee said was precisely insulting, if anything she should be applauded for telling the truth.

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TheUncleBob
December 18, 2008 4:20 AM
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@jaya9581: Yes, I'm sure this black clerk was being racist against overweight white women. Only black women should be allowed to be overweight!

Seriously though, I have no reason to doubt what this clerk said - the store caters to the clients that shop there. Saying \"We don't carry X because we're small\" is a lie in this case (again, assuming what this clerk said is true).

All to often, when told \"no\", people demand to know why. Perhaps if we would just stick with the \"no\", we'd be happier than if we knew the answer.

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SOhp101
December 18, 2008 1:26 AM
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@jaya9581: There's always a minimum level of decency expected from employees representing any company but it's hard to control everything that every employee says.

That being said, I don't think she should be asking for anything. The employee told the truth in a very crude way but it was the truth.

And many 'upscale' designers don't make \"plus\" sized clothing (I'm talking about anything made to fit someone that's thicker than a toothpick here). If she has a bone to pick regarding that, she should go complain to the designers, not the store.

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unojack
December 18, 2008 12:54 PM
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@SOhp101: I agree with Lifehacker; someone just needs a lesson in \"tact\" but other than that you have to face the truth sometime because it IMPOSSIBLE to please all the people all the time!
I smell yet another frivolous lawsuit cooking in the background!

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Skipweasel
December 18, 2008 12:15 PM
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@SOhp101: I disagree - it's for the store to apply pressure to the designer, surely? After all, the designer is doing it for money, if they won't do what the store wants (and clearly can sell) then the store can always find another designer.

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beboptheflop
December 18, 2008 5:09 AM
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@SOhp101:


I use to work for Macy's and managed the Women's Dept. and let me tell you, it was like pulling teeth to get the buying office to look into anything other than cheap moderate wear crap for your B to C size stores. In stores that aren't A stores, the Women's Dept will just not sell \"Collections\" merchandise.


I have a funny feeling that this associate was so sick and tired of customers asking for something nicer than what they offered that she just pulled the whole demographic BS out of her ass. It has nothing to do with the demographics but everything to do with the size of the store.

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ohiomensch
December 18, 2008 1:59 AM
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@SOhp101: Ralph Lauren makes a very stylish line of Plus Size Business and formal clothes that exactly one Dillards in a 50 mile radius of me carries. Most designers do have plus size lines.

Its not that the clothes don't exist, its that most stores choose not to carry them because there \"isn't a market for them.\" Whenever anyone tells me that I tell them, \"I am here, if you had it I would buy it, so there is a market for them\"

The problem is that all these stores are trying to be everything to everyone, carrying a little bit of everything and not much of anything.

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elisa
December 18, 2008 11:09 AM
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@ohiomensch: What's the name of this Ralph Lauren line? How would I find out if any local stores carried it?

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:09 AM
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@elisa: Ralph Lauren is generally carried at larger Macy's, Dillars, Bloomingdales, Lord and Taylor...just try your more upscale department stores.

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litbruin
December 18, 2008 1:21 AM
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You could almost make a discrimination argument out of those statements. Thought the business would try and cover itself by saying it isn't economically viable to carry such merchandise, the lack of any merchandise, and I really believe this, is an attempt to keep what Macy's considers an undesirable demographic out of that particular store in order to keep attracting a more desirable one. Call it what you want, but in a more upscale store you can bet your sweet skinny/fat ass that they would love to keep fat black women out and have more white skinny ones in.

Besides that, did any one notice how ironic google's ads on this page are?

20% Off atMacy's
Save 20% off orders over $100. Hurry, coupon ends Jan 5

Formal Dresses
Dresses that Fit & Flatter You 15% Off First Order + Free Shipping

@jaya9581:

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silver-bolt
December 18, 2008 1:50 AM
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@litbruin: If that was true, why would they ever open a store in a place that fat black women are the majority?

You are just using circular logic to explain it. What came first, the lack of plus size sales, or them not carrying plus size stuff to sale? More then likely, lack of plus size sales.

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HalbertCabatan
December 18, 2008 12:14 AM
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@jaya9581:

Don't go to Target either. They have a plus size department that would fit in my bathroom it's so small. Lane Bryant used to be where I'd shop but they're styles are back to the stereotyped \"fat woman\" clothes of shapeless shifts, so I don't shop there either. Try and find basic black pants that aren't jeans at Walmart and their plus size department disappoints too. I guess there aren't any fat women in China. Society makes you feel like a pariah for being over a size 6 and punishes you by not offering a selection of clothes for sale.

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:05 AM
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@HalbertCabatan: I wasn't even aware Target had a plus sized department, which goes to show you how large it is :) But their clothes do get to \"larger\" sizes such as 16 and 18, so many of my friends are just more vigilant when they browse.

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squinko
December 18, 2008 2:19 PM
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@HalbertCabatan:


Try shopping at Avenue or getting the Alloy catalog. They have trendy, great-looking plus size clothing for decent prices.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 3:27 PM
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@squinko:

I'm sorry to disagree, but Avenue products are overpriced crap. It's like Wal-Mart quality goods stuck in a boutique setting. You can't put lipstick on a pig, which in this context is probably a bad metaphor, but whatever.

Nordstrom has a decent selection of quality plus wear (including Ralph Lauren and Dana Buchman) from casual to formal.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 12:36 AM
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@HalbertCabatan: I really think anyone who sold quality, fashionable plus-sized clothes would have a gold mine on their hands- if marketed properly!

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roguemarvel
December 20, 2008 3:00 AM
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@lydia_gwilt: ever hear of Torrid

www.torrid.com

Now I'm not a plus size women, but I have a friend who works in there design department and many of my plus size friends rave about there stuff.

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Clare
December 18, 2008 2:54 AM
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@lydia_gwilt: I have said a million times, to anyone who will listen, that if J.Crew made plus size clothes, I would spend probably $750-1000 there PER SEASON.

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:08 AM
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@Clare: Have you shopped at a J.Crew? I don't mean that rudely, it's just that I typically wear a size S in shirts and probably a 4/6 pant size (on a good day) and almost everything at J.Crew (shirts and pants wise) is too big on me. I'm not a waif either, I'm normal sized. Same with The Limited and New York and Company, though at least at NY & Co there is XS. Everything in size small is just too big, which is why I don't shop there anymore.

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Dillon Barfield
December 18, 2008 4:42 PM
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@Clare:

J.Crew offers up to a 16 and their sizes often run a bit large (vanity sizes are so stupid) so they end up being close to a 20 standard (18 catalog)

sizing in America has become downright stupid. It made my brief stint of working retail while in college annoying (of course, I'm a CompSci grad so I get all bent out of shape over such things)

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Clare
December 18, 2008 6:14 PM
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@NotATool: I know. I don't care. Make a beautiful cashmere sweater with interesting details, or a pair of trousers in fun, unusual wool, and I will buy them. I will buy them in every color. Fat people have money that they want to spend. Give me something worth buying (shapeless polyester muu-muus and elastic-waist pants in synthetic fabrics are NOT WORTH BUYING) and I will buy it.

@Dillon Barfield: Yeah, I know that. I am not a size 16. I am not anywhere near that. My money spends the same way a size 2's does, though. Make clothes in my size and I will happily buy them. It's that simple.

@Mr-Mr: Take your self-loathing elsewhere. I've got enough of my own, thanks.

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NotATool
December 18, 2008 3:42 PM
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@Clare: At $300 per sweater, that wouldn't take long to add up!

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dkissam
December 18, 2008 9:04 AM
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@Clare:
God, this. So much this.

If they made plus size, I would do 90% of my shopping there, and the other 10% would be accessories.

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beatrixcomet
December 17, 2008 11:37 PM
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@jaya9581: Pam is the Macy's employee. Amanda is the upset customer. So Amanda is owed the apology, right?

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jaya9581
December 18, 2008 2:44 AM
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@beatrixcomet: Yes, you're right, Amanda. My bad. That's what I get for reading too fast.

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KyleOrton
December 17, 2008 11:34 PM
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This is why you get crappy PR speak out of so many companies. The truth just doesn't sound nice enough for the public. Not only did the clerk tell the customer where to go for what she needed, she even explained why that was the case.

The stores inventory may or may not fit the demographics well. I don't know. I DO know that the choices weren't designed to make this woman feel fat and poor.

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Voyou_Charmant
December 18, 2008 5:37 PM
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@KyleOrton: exactly.

There is really nothing wrong with what Pam said. She was straight forward and didn't give some watered down generic company line, she explained why that specific store didn't carry a certain product/size. Furthermore, she explained which store would be a better option. Yes; she could have used a little pinch more tact, and the \"women of color\" line seems unnecessary, the fact that Pam, herself, was African-American, she certainly didn't mean anything out of line or racist by it.

\"She couched all of her insults and rudeness in terms of \"demographics\"...\"

I think that is how the customer took, it but the word \"demographics\" is used to describe a specific group of people. She is clearly offended by her being blunt, or to the point, certainly she would have been more offended if she said something like \"more fat people shop at the highlands store\".

So which is it? Do you want to hear about the store that caters to your demographic or the store that caters to fat people?

It sounds to me like this customer wants to have her cake and eat it to.

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PeggyK
December 18, 2008 10:11 PM
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@Voyou_Charmant: All Pam needed to say was that that particular Macy's doesn't carry the items Amanda was looking for and that the Highland Mall store does. There's no reason why Pam needed explain that in terms of the other store catering to poor fat black women. Even couched \"nicely\" in terms of demographics she basically told Amanda that she didn't belong in that store, and that's bad for business.

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Mina_da_mad_child
December 18, 2008 4:46 PM
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@KyleOrton: Agreed! I used to work for a market research company for movies and we were told, depending on the film, not to allow anyone with an accent or only a small percentage of minorites without accents. The truth is color and ethnicity affects certain things in this consumerist culture. As a black woman, I didn't think she was saying that all black women are fat and poor. Such it up and go to another store. That's the great thing about capitalism

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Wormfather is Wormfather
December 18, 2008 2:22 PM
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@KyleOrton: People, relax. Jezebel is <------that way.


/ducks

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 4:25 AM
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@lydia_gwilt: not in rich areas they're not. look at my state, 2% of the population is obese compared to a third or so average for the country. richer areas really are thinner. and the lord & taylor in my area is also < size 12 etc.

it may be discriminatory, but the clerk was right even if this amanda chick got pissed off. rich =/= overweight for the vast majority.

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Anitra
December 18, 2008 2:06 PM
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@katylostherart: Plus sized does not necessarily mean \"obese\". I've been a size 14/16 since I was a teenager. I'm also a bit over 5'8\". Am I a bit overweight? Sure. But people don't know that unless I tell them how much I weigh. And even if I was super skinny, I'd still be at the extreme upper end of \"normal\" sizes at a size 12.

And while richer areas trend thinner, that doesn't mean EVERYONE with money is thin. I'm not rich, but I've never had to worry about money - I've never been a fan of department stores because they're expensive, poor quality clothes that don't usually fit me. I'm fine with buying expensive clothing as long as it will last me a while (for example: Brooks Brothers); but I tend to find the best selection at cheaper stores (where I don't mind if something wears out in a year or two).

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 10:39 PM
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@Anitra: \"And while richer areas trend thinner, that doesn't mean EVERYONE with money is thin.\"

sure, i get that. but you just kind of proved macy's point. if most of your customer base is not plus sized, why would you stock for it? you'd shift that merch to stores where it will be bought instead of having a lot of inventory end up on the clearance rack at the end of the season, thus losing profits. so just because all rich people aren't thin, doesn't mean they shouldn't stock for the MAJORITY.

i didn't argue for her being obese either, but she is overweight. and if you were super skinny you'd probably be a size 4/6 as i know several 5'8 and up women who are 10s and under at perfectly normal not stabbing collar bone size. which again, in classic (ie real) dress sizes would be more like a 14/16. the problem with vanity sizing is it allows women to lie to themselves. i'm 5'9. at my thinnest i was a 12, at my heaviest i was a 26. and i can say with fairly wide hips, a big ass and muscular thighs that i still could've probably been a healthy 6/8 (12/14 classic).

beyond size issues, quality is another problem, which is why i heavily advocate making your own clothes for some things. formal wear being one of them. if you have to wear it once and you want it to look great, make it yourself and have it professional tailored just a bit. it's cheaper and fitted properly. you can't complain about quality and then turn around and purchase a shirt that wears out in a year. macy's isn't really expensive in terms of clothing retail. saks is where you get your classic quality that you can keep for a decade. nordstrom's and lord & taylor to a degree. the handmade stuff lasts, but again why not make it yourself?

you should mind that your clothes wear out so quickly, no matter what they cost you. paying for crap when you have alternative choices is letting your own standards down.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 4:45 AM
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@katylostherart: I'm talking about the numbers in NYC in one of the wealthiest zip codes in the US. I've seen the balance sheets and crunched the numbers. With plus sizes: if you build it, they will come.

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 5:40 AM
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@lydia_gwilt: i dunno man. i go to the city pretty regularly and i'm in the commuter suburbs for them. i don't see a lot of fat people that are in any way obviously wealthy. and anyone i do see obviously wealthy i'd be hard pressed to guess a double digit dress size for. men included if they measured them that way. maybe in the bronx or brooklyn or something, but manhattan, shopping distric, soho, lower east? nah, skinny rich.

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downwithmonstercable
December 18, 2008 1:13 AM
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@KyleOrton: I agree. She could've put it more tactfully, but then again that whole conversation sounds fabricated. It sounds like formal banter...maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

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ohiomensch
December 18, 2008 2:04 AM
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@downwithmonstercable:

I am not Pam, but I have had similar conversations with many different stores regarding the same subject. Its a very common occurance/attitude I have run across.

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Parting
December 17, 2008 11:51 PM
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@KyleOrton: I guess you don't need tact being part of customer service?

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Shiya
December 18, 2008 12:12 AM
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@Meltdown: This lady was just a stocking clerk, not part of the regular customer service team. And I dunno, I kind of thought she was being as nice as she could while still giving the whole truth.

I'd rather be told the real reason behind why my size isn't stocked, rather than some kind of sugar-coated lie like the store being too small for the plus-sized department.

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Parting
December 18, 2008 12:44 AM
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@Shiya: There is only one reason : not enough clientele, so not enough profits! Everything else about color/demographic are crappy excuses. Basically demand. The rest is pure ''air'', and some ignorant crap that doesn't stand to someone who've seen marketing manual.

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Anonymous
December 22, 2008 10:30 PM
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@Meltdown:

I have seen the marketing manual and market research, and demographics based on age, ethnicity, race, industry, etc are at the core of marketing. Even with no marketing knowledge just common sense would help you understand how that information can be helpful. Before you talk about THE MANUAL, read THE MANUAL!

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 1:06 AM
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@Meltdown: Having worked in the industry, the problem is that it's more of a chicken/egg issue, then a lack of demand. If you habitually do not carry larger sizes, you will not attract larger size customers, and you can say there is no demand. Plus sizes make money. Everywhere. It's not even a question. What Pam is saying is that we don't carry large sizes here because this is an upscale Macy's. And people of larger sizes/of color don't fit our idea of branding for this particular Macy's. That's what the problem is.

At the flagship of the dept store I worked for derived a large percentage of profits from two departments: cosmetics & plus sizes (who were housed in a dark, dreary, out of the way basement). The high end, designer standard sized departments that featured most prominently in the advertising never did nearly as well.

Marketing demographics for retail clothing the past couple of decades have had more to do with \"upscaling\" than \"profits\". It's not that simple, and yeah, it's a little racist.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 9:50 AM
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@lydia_gwilt:

\"The high end, designer standard sized departments that featured most prominently in the advertising never did nearly as well.\"

But those lines are partly what draw people to the store in the first place. Maybe brave marketing would go with the \"we have good plus-sized clothes!\" message, but most rely on skinny designer clothes as advertising, not just products. You could also see them as aspirational items - they're there to make the other clothes seem cheaper. So it's unfair to compair sales.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 1:11 AM
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@lydia_gwilt: *the flagship, not At the flagship. Ack.

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ShariC
December 18, 2008 12:26 AM
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@Shiya: Saying the store was too small for a plus-sized formal department would be the truth, not sugar-coating. In fact, the absence of any department would mean the store wasn't large enough to accommodate dedicated space to a line of goods and still make a profit.

In this case, I think the clerk said too much and insulted the customer unnecessarily. It's more than enough to say, 'I'm sorry, but we don't carry plus-size formal wear in this store. However, you can find it at our Highland Mall branch.\" All the other information does nothing to assist the customer nor make Macy's a sale and didn't need to be included. Part of customer service is not telling the customer things they don't need to know because such information has zero impact on assisting the customer with her problem.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 11:42 AM
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@ShariC: Having lived in Austin (where Amanda lives), mentioning Highland Mall could *almost* be implied as racist coming from a Barton Creek employee. Barton Creek is the soccer mom whiter than white mall, while Highland is the ghetto gangsta mall.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 12:41 AM
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@ShariC: It's mind-blowing to me that people are posting that this woman should just suck it up and stop complaining! As with Circuit City, department stores are dying a slow death. Retaining customers might help.

There are so many other, better ways to have handled this. Macy's is the worst.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 12:23 AM
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@Shiya: The thing is, as someone who has worked in the corporate office of a major department store, what this woman (Pam) said sounds like total BS. For the past 10-15 years plus sized departments have been a total cash cow for struggling department stores. The decision to scale back on plus sized departments is madness, but many are doing it, as they believe if they gain a reputation for catering to plus sized women (perceived as being older, less on trend, less affluent) it would damage the \"brand\". See what happened with Lord & Taylor in NY, for an example of this.

It's a really crappy situation that really is somewhat discriminatory and is not (to my thinking) sound business.

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testsicles
December 18, 2008 2:54 PM
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@lyd_gwlt: ys, pls sz clthng lns r vry sccssfl bcs pls sz wmn r lwys n nd f nw clths t rplc th ns wth ll th spghtt nd jlly dnt stns.

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jodark
December 18, 2008 2:22 PM
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@testsicles: Hehe, this thread does need more jokes like this. Also, this seems extremely fabricated, the way in which the clerk speak isn't very conversational and she essentially repeats itself. Besides, what she said isn't actually offensive, it was FACTUAL. No where in her statements are their judgements being made by HER, she is just passing on information that was probably conveyed to her in a similar way. The customer is manufacturing outrage over company strategy she doesn't like, because it doesn't cater to her. Thats like saying \"I hate this movie store because they don't carry the movies I like, therefore they are offending me.\"

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Consumerist-Moderator-Roz
December 18, 2008 3:18 PM
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@jodark: No, this thread does not need more jokes like this.

Folks, you can discuss this without being needlessly inflammatory and insulting to others.

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Clare
December 18, 2008 2:50 AM
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@lydia_gwilt:
See what happened with Lord & Taylor in NY, for an example of this.

Really?! That's such a shame; I wear plus sizes and I have found the Lord and Taylor in the King of Prussia mall my best bet for finding formal dresses. Macy's is good for casual clothing (they carry really nice plus size Calvin Klein throwback jeans), and I get work clothes at Talbots. But nobody's big lady formal dress department can hold a candle to Lord and Taylor's.

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coodlebump
December 18, 2008 5:52 AM
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@Clare: Actually, Nordstrom's at KOP has a pretty awesome women's formal wear section. It's small, but has really stylish stuff. Probably only a good deal when there's a sale, though.

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 4:27 AM
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@Clare: around here l&t is definitely for the skinny rich chicks. $400 handmade sweater? yeah i think i'll buy my own damn yarn thanks.

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KyleOrton
December 18, 2008 12:11 AM
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@Meltdown: I prefer useful information. Unless her tone was nasty, I have no problem with what she said.

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concordia
December 17, 2008 11:34 PM
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(Totally justified) shit storm coming in 3, 2....

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Parting
December 17, 2008 11:51 PM
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@concordia: Sorry, you missed it already. Look at KyleOrton comments.

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everfade
December 17, 2008 11:34 PM
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Am I the only one who finds this story a bit too hard to swallow?

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Canino
December 18, 2008 4:38 PM
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@everfade: I find it hard to believe anyone would search for a sales clerk for 25 minutes. If I couldn't find either a sales clerk or what I was looking for in 5 minutes I would have been out the door.

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onebadazzmofo
December 18, 2008 1:23 PM
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@everfade:


I felt the same way even half way through this, seems a little bit embelished to me.

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MissPeacock
December 18, 2008 4:41 AM
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@everfade: I can believe it. My friend and I went to Saks once. A saleslady approached us, sized us up and down and told my friend (a tall guy with a bit of weight) that they had nothing that would fit him. She then steered me over toward the less expensive \"working girl\" clothing. I maintain that she wasn't implying I was a prostitute; rather that there was no way someone who looked like ME could ever afford anything. Saks is a different animal entirely, but it says something that I've never been back.

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Kajj
December 18, 2008 2:29 AM
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@everfade: Nope, every single article on Consumerist gets a few self-applauding \"skeptics\" no matter what the situation is.

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Real Cheese Flavor
December 18, 2008 1:42 PM
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@Kajj: Skepticism is a far better thing than swallowing whole and spewing righteous indignation at whatever the latest injustice that's served up for us readers by the editors.

I personally think the story happened but has been embellished a bit to inspire that little spark of anger that'll get some people to \"never shop at Macy's again unless this is taken care of.\"

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juri squared
December 18, 2008 1:44 AM
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@everfade: I'm \"plus-sized\" so it's pretty easy for me to believe. It absolutely happens.

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Manraysky
December 18, 2008 12:19 AM
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@everfade: It has the tone of an email forward that later gets discredited by Snopes.com.

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Mary
December 18, 2008 12:17 AM
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@everfade: The idea that a clerk, whose job seems to be putting things on racks and ringing up orders, can so easily channel a marketing/PR consultant with her phrasing and excessive use of the word \"demographic,\" is suspect to me.

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Ascendo_tuum
December 18, 2008 2:56 AM
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@Mary: The story may very well be fabricated (I'm guessing not, but who knows) but I think it's a little offensive to suggest that someone whose job is 'putting things on racks and ringing up orders' wouldn't use this kind of phrasing or words like 'demographic'. I've worked in retail for years and I have a college education. I'm quite capable of speaking in an intelligent manner.


I'm not defending her comments or actions at all, just pointing out that it's not beyond the realm of possibility that a retail clerk would come up with these phrases on her own.

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Mary
December 18, 2008 5:32 AM
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@Ascendo_tuum: the odds that the one clerk that the OP managed to find was well versed in marketing-speak are low. Not because the clerk is stupid, but because it's not the clerk's job.

There are other things I find a bit convenient as well, like how the OP is originally in the plus size section, but after she walks to the other side of the store to find someone to speak with, another person with the exact same question follows.

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lim
December 18, 2008 2:30 AM
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@Mary: Marketing student at her first job actually dealing with the public?

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Mary
December 18, 2008 12:20 AM
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@Mary: I mean, I'm not necessarily calling shenanigans on the idea that the clerk told her that another Macy's had a bigger plus-size selection, but the way it's transcribed and the way it reads just seems off.

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sven.kirk
December 18, 2008 12:55 AM
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@Mary: I totally agree with you there. Not doubting that it happened. But it is really suspect that it went exactly as written.

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Parting
December 17, 2008 11:52 PM
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@everfade: Nope, I've met a lot of ignorant people in my life.

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Jim Topoleski
December 17, 2008 11:44 PM
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@everfade: Yep, I can give you a perfect example of this is practice. Go to a JC Pennys or Macys in central NJ like Woodbridge Mall

Then go to one in southern NJ like Ocean County Mall

It will become BEYOND obvious the demographics involved as central NJ is very mixed racially and only recently has southern NJ become anything but predominately white.

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67alecto
December 18, 2008 3:29 AM
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@everfade: Definitely - the practice is legit, but no way the clerk used those words. My sister has to shop for shoes in certain areas of Little Rock, AR because they carry the larger sizes (like everyone in my family, she has big feet...I myself where a 14).

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audiochick
December 17, 2008 11:35 PM
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I definitely agree that Pam was given that info by her managers, but the fact she was so well versed in her statements leads me to believe that she gets asked this kind of question a lot. Obviously a plus-sized demographic for that store does exist, so why don't they cater to them? It makes no sense! I hope someone in the buying office finds out about this. Perhaps Amanda should cc they buyers on her letter.

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darrylsh
December 18, 2008 12:21 PM
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@audiochick: I agree, it seem there is a plus-size demand at that store, based on how versed she was and there was 2 requests within minutes. I think what's really going on is an effort on Macy's part to discourage certain demographics from shopping at their \"upscale\" location.

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wednesdayam
December 17, 2008 11:35 PM
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I'm betting this is Austin. There is a Macy's at our Highland Mall, and that is the mall closest to the east side, where there's a higher number of minorities. That, and I can totally seeing such body-snarking coming out of the smug sales associates at either The Domain or at Barton Creek Mall, whichever was the original Macy's she was visiting. Way to be low-class, Macy's.

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balthisar
December 18, 2008 3:22 AM
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@wednesdayam: But the salewoman was black. And she was a saleswoman. You can't go lower on the social chain. For her attitude to be derisive is not logical given her two big deficits*. Therefore I choose to take the salesperson's words at face value.

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sinfuly Delicious
December 18, 2008 2:03 AM
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@wednesdayam: You all beat me to it. Yes its Austin. And I say we gather up and go find Pam. Make her spend a day at Highland Mall and see if she ever recommends someone go there.

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thatblackgirl
December 18, 2008 12:44 AM
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@wednesdayam: It IS Austin. And that Macy's location at Highland Mall no longer carries cashmere sweaters, because of \"demographic changes,\" I'm sure.

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J. Gov
December 19, 2008 1:49 PM
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@thatblackgirl: Butbutbut cashmere is so warm; it's perfect for white girls!


...I mean skinny girls!


/sarcasm

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wednesdayam
December 17, 2008 11:39 PM
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@wednesdayam: Ah, see, I was so annoyed that I completely skipped over the part where she said it was the Barton Creek store. I miss that store being a Foley's. Much less annoying back then. And I still wouldn't put that same attitude past The Domain, but they might not be so fast about it since there's a Neiman's on the other side of that mall.

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sweetbeans
December 17, 2008 11:39 PM
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Pam's statements do sound \"canned\", but they don't sound like something Macy's would coach their salespeople to say, \"The demographics tell us that plus sized women just don't need social wear.\" This sounds more like Pam's personal axe to grind. Not that I'm defending Macy's (I actually despise them). But, if there were so many women asking for plus-sized formal wear that they had to come up with a pat response, you'd think they would instead just stock a few items - or at the least, tell their salespeople to say, \"I'm sorry, we don't carry that size. Please try another store\".

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lauramac1976
December 18, 2008 12:24 AM
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@sweetbeans: I'd love to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, but I have to call shenanigans on this \"story.\" As someone who is both fat and has worked in retail, there's no way that a response that lucid about the corporate demographics and merchandise planning came from a floor associate. It just doesn't ring true. I imagine a salesperson would have just directed her to the other store--there's no motivation for her to go into that entire speech. I call bullshit.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 2:31 AM
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@lauramac1976: Why does everyone have so much trouble believing that a floor associate would know this information? I could understand not believing it came from higher up and that she wasn't told to say it. I don't know, it just seems insulting. What, because she's a floor associate that automatically makes her less intelligent? (I know your post doesn't say this, but it reads a little condescending to me.) For all we know, this could be a second job for her. As someone who has been pigeon-holed into a certain line of work and made to feel like I was some sort of drone who couldn't possibly want more, perhaps I just a little more sensitive to it.

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sweetbeans
December 18, 2008 12:59 AM
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@lauramac1976: I was thinking that myself - story sounds a little bogus. I find it hard to believe anyone talks like that, and even if so, how could she remember so many long, detailed sentences so exactly. Plus the part where she says she loves Macy's - I mean, if they have such a crap selection, then why is she a customer?

Don't get me wrong - I know there is a lot of negativity towards the plus sizes out there, and it sucks. I'm just sayin'.

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mattwiggins
December 18, 2008 12:16 AM
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@sweetbeans:


\"I'm sorry, we don't carry that size. Please try another store\".


I believe that's actually, exactly what the sales rep in this story said. she included the justification as to why, granted, but that is the essence of what she said - and not only did she say another store, she said *which* other store.


Frankly - this whole situation sounds to me like a case of offensisensitivity - stores like macy's do TONS of market research, and that store probably DOES actually service more petite upperclass women. It's not a statement about inherent quality of size or race, it's a fact of location, and customer base.


If the store is located in a part of town populated by people who are health conscious or affluent, or both, then the weighting is going to be towards petit, upscale clothes - there's nothing WRONG with being less wealthy or larger - there just aren't enough of those people visiting the store to justify the cost of stocking those items.


If the other store happens to be located in a less affluent part of town, or that part of town has a larger population of plus-sized customers, then that store is going to cater to those groups. Again, there's nothing wrong with it, it's just how these things work.


The CSR was not making a value judgement at the expense of Amanda, she was telling her that that particular store does not carry her size, but another store does, and why. Additionally, I find it harder to accept that an african-american sales associate (as stated)would make a comment with regards to a store catering to racial demographics in a derogatory way. She meant it as fact, not value.


Amanda's simply looking for something to be upset about.

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GuinevereRucker
December 18, 2008 12:59 AM
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@Matt Wiggins: I agree with you. Targeting rich white women is Macy's prerogative just like Radio Shack caters to near-sighted weakling geeks.

Being completely tactless for a minute:

1) Lose weight. Stop getting mad at the world for your obesity. An airline doesn't owe you two seats for the price of one. The world doesn't owe you extra because you are fat.

2) You pressured the salesperson into giving you answers, then yelled at her when she was honest and reasonable. In a capitalistic system, a store can cater to whatever race or waist size it wants. If you don't like it, don't shop there.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 2:06 AM
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@GuinevereRucker: @RustyHeadedGirl: What RustyHeadedGirl said. And no. Discriminating against a particular race will incur lawsuits. Which will be lost. We have capitalism, but not without trammels.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 3:41 AM
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@lydia_gwilt: Discrimination in hiring will case lawsuits. Choosing not to carry a certain type of item in a store is not discrimination in the legal sense. Nobody said, \"You can't shop here.\" The issue is carrying the items that are most likely to be purchased in each store.

Yes, there are many problems with the way the demographic info is played out, but until our communities themselves are less segregated, we are not going to see this change any time soon. Unfortunately, things such as this perpetuate the cycle.

One last thing: Nobody will criticize Lane Bryant for not carrying a size two on the basis of discrimination. Also, I certainly don't expect anyone to feel sorry for my skinny a** now that many of stores have implemented vanity sizing to the extent that they only order one or two items in my size and run out or don't even carry my size any more except for online. It just makes sense. America is getting fatter, so the stores have to cater to what will sell. (Except in this case where apparently the sales have been such that they have decided that it is not worth it to carry the larger sizes.) It goes both ways.

Also, FWIW, I'm sure 16-18 is not obese or overweight for some people, but it is for many people. Keep in mind that our scale for normal may have become a bit skewed. 64% of Americans are either overweight or obese. I know that marketing is pervasive, but not as pervasive as the normal people we see around us every day. The norm has moved to overweight, in the numerical sense. In other words, the normal average weight does not equal the normal healthy weight.

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RustyHeadedGirl
December 18, 2008 1:42 AM
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@GuinevereRucker: Size 16-18 isn't \"obese\". Obesity is a very complex descriptor that has to do with the amount of body fat an individual is carrying on their frame, and since I did not see the OP list that information anywhere in her letter, that's an unfair and inflammatory assumption on your part. Nevermind your little rant about airplane seats which is completely off topic and simply mean spirited. Also, many women who are taller need to buy larger sizes simply to find something that fits them length wise, and taller women can have a larger size and still be in proportion and healthy. Being completely tactless for a minute; you're an ignorant ass.

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GuinevereRucker
December 18, 2008 6:06 PM
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@RustyHeadedGirl: Point taken, I was a bit overboard :)

I guess it just seems like the woman was getting mad at the salesperson for the fact that she was overweight and the store didn't cater to her. I get mad when people who are different think the world owes them all manner of handouts. Like foreigners refusing to learn English, fat people expecting to get a free seat on an airline for free, and black people getting hired over white people just because they're black.

That's what I was ranting about. Being different is ok. Being angry at the world for not making special arrangements for your differentness is not always cool.

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 5:04 AM
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@RustyHeadedGirl: size 16-18 is about a 24 in classic dress sizes. while the average height of a woman is around 5'5 in america, a waist size fitting in 16/18 is not in a healthy body fat percentage range even if she is 5\" above average height. you can argue whether or not that's obese all you want but it's well above general healthy height/weight ratio and in true dress size it's definitely not in the healthy range. i'm 5'9\", medium build and have been anywhere from a 26 to a 12 and everything in between. and at a 16/18 that's definitely more poundage than should be there. it may not be obese, but she's not thin, and she's not even just a healthy 20% body fat without extremely disproportionate hip/waist measurements. it sucks that clothing isn't more catering to all the edges of sizes and all, but she could always learn to make her own. i mean hell that's the only way i really find shirts that don't end at my belly button half the time... come to think of it, i've made all my own formal wear for that exact reason too. COME ON LADIES BREAK OUT THE SEWING MACHINES.

and before anyone mentions marilyn monroe, she was a size 14 back then, that's a size 6/8 now.

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kmw2
December 18, 2008 4:55 PM
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@katylostherart: Size 16 ready to wear US sizes is actually about size 18-20 in classic dress sizes, not a 24. These sizes are still used in sewing patterns, which emphasize the fact that the measurements are more important than the number on the pattern.

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 10:42 PM
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@kmw2: hmmm. i see them generally as +4-6. i wonder if that means vanity sizing is finally affecting pattern makers. that would be incredibly disappointing.

man, next they're going to start making the inch bigger :(

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supercereal
December 18, 2008 12:28 AM
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@Matt Wiggins: I have to agree somewhat. I have no doubt that Macy's, or any store for that matter, did tons of demographic research for the area in deciding what they should stock. Complain all you want, but that's not going to change. I suppose the solution is to train employees to lie when asked about why certain items aren't carried...

Would I have been annoyed if told the same thing as Amanda? Probably. At the same time, would I understand and accept the fact that, yes, this is how the retail world works? Absolutely.

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mattwiggins
December 18, 2008 12:35 AM
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@supercereal:


\"I suppose the solution is to train employees to lie when asked about why certain items aren't carried...\"


Or teach people to accept things for how they are instead of getting their shirt in a knot over a statement of fact.

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silver-bolt
December 17, 2008 11:39 PM
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I would comment on this story, but would probably get banned....

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kherge
December 17, 2008 11:44 PM
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@silver-bolt: I'm probably in the same boat as you.

We might need to buy to two tickets...

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weakdome
December 18, 2008 4:32 AM
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@kherge: 2 tickets each? Is that a joke about plus-sized people having to get 2 seats?

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eXo
December 18, 2008 2:02 PM
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@weakdome: I hope so, because that would be the best part of this whole thread.

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concordia
December 17, 2008 11:53 PM
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@kherge:
>buy two tickets...

To paradise?

Glorious fat-bottomed paradise?

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silver-bolt
December 18, 2008 12:03 AM
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@concordia: Hey, I like Fat Bottom Girls (Especially riding a bicycle, just not whiny ones :O

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anastasia beaverhousen
December 17, 2008 11:46 PM
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This is what shopping is like here, in Canada. Most stores carry very few or NO plus sized clothing. I have become so adept at finding \"niche market\" stores in the US simply because of this. I think you should write a letter, as your all-american sense of entitlement should grant you the freedom to shop where you choose. Also, do it for me so I can shop where I choose when visiting your country for clothing.

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battra92
December 18, 2008 1:08 PM
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@anastasia beaverhousen: That's kind of ironic since I saw tons of obese people when I went to Toronto.

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BettyCrockerPunkRocker
December 18, 2008 8:13 AM
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@anastasia beaverhousen: Wow. \"All-american sense of entitlement\" is nearly as offensive as the assertions made by Pam the salessnarky.


Did you perhaps not understand that the issue is not that they didn't have the items in the size she needed, but that the reason why coupled with the way the message was delivered was problem?


Geez - I thought Canadians were polite.
/sweeping generalization

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ideagirl
December 18, 2008 2:00 AM
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@roxrharris: That's what I was wondering--guess it must be some kind of snarky Canadian slang.

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JeromeCabaret
December 18, 2008 1:17 AM
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@roxrharris: I think it's that thing where we insist that everyone be treated equally.

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Cyclokitty
December 17, 2008 11:55 PM
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@anastasia beaverhousen:

I've found it next to impossible to find good quality, attractive and well fitting plus sized clothing in Toronto. We have Penningtons (oh horrible! They stock muu muus and lots of polyester stretch trousers in colours like dusty rose), or Cotton Ginny (but primarily casual clothing), then there is Addtion-elle (hit and miss - it has a touch of business and muu muu mixed in one two piece outfit). The department stores have nearly nothing in plus sizes.

So I too shop online for decent clothing and they are all from the states.

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littlemisslondon
December 18, 2008 11:42 AM
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@Cyclokitty: There's a plus store in Yorkdale that always seems to have cute clothes in the window - Laura Plus Petites, I think?

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RedmondDesomma
December 18, 2008 5:10 AM
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@Cyclokitty:

Penningtons is hit and miss too. About four years ago I was able to get almost an entirely new business wardrobe there. Beautiful blazers, a fabulous pinstripe suit, and the most flattering black pants I've ever owned. This year their stuff sucks rocks, but they are capable of having lovely clothes.

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FuryOfFirestorm
December 17, 2008 11:46 PM
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Black Macy's? Is that in the same plaza as the Asian Marshall's and Jewish GAP?

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MadameX
December 18, 2008 12:06 AM
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@FuryOfFirestorm: That's the one. Right across the street from the Gay Denny's.

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MadameX
December 18, 2008 12:07 AM
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@MadameX: I should clarify... we have a \"gay Denny's\" in Phoenix. I have nothing against gay people and in fact have many gay friends. Just that everyone who has ever gone out to a club here knows where the gay Denny's is...

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Jamie Sommers
December 18, 2008 6:16 PM
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@MadameX: 7th St. and Camelback?

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tashiking
December 18, 2008 12:41 AM
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@MadameX:

\"Jenny's!\"
I *love* that place. I went there for my Senior Prom.

Whenever I get bored I can always head down there on a weekend after the bars close and just people watch.

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coddat
December 17, 2008 11:46 PM
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Not all Macy's are alike. Some Macy's do in fact cater to different clientele. It's called marketing to your customer. Barton Creek which is in a very wealthy part of Austin caters to the wealthier customer, who probably is going to macy's for Polo, or Lauren or evening wear for social events. Highland Mall is in a middle class aging part of Austin that favors urban brands like baby phat or apple bottoms, there is going to be a customer their that needs larger sizes. In reality Macy's at Barton Creek probably carried the more expensive Women's line, but since they were not bought they were dropped. I imagine Highland mall has a basic petite department to make up for a much larger women's department.

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:14 AM
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@coddat: That makes perfect sense...in one of my local malls, I started noticing a few stores cropping up that catered to a more urban population. The stores carried Fubu and Sean John and within a year, almost all of the stores died and were replaced by Forever 21s or something very similar. The stores that always survived were the Express, Limited and Gap-type stores. Fashionable enough for different types of people, but still reasonably priced. The shops that catered to a more urban demographic lost shoppers because the mall is in the suburbs. Coach is doing really well in this mall, and the new Marc Jacobs store is doing really well too, I think.

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Heather Milanese
December 18, 2008 2:37 PM
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@coddat: Thank you for pointing out the obvious. The women was truthful which I would prefer any day, though this seems like a made up situation. My bet is the woman noticed these differences on her on or works there and overheard something and made up this conversation to bring it to light. Coddat is spot on.

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balthisar
December 18, 2008 3:24 AM
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@coddat: Same here. The Macy's at Eastland is decidedly ghetto. We go to the Macy's at the Summerset Collection.

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girlscantell
December 18, 2008 3:02 AM
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@coddat: okay, i live about 5 minutes from barton creek mall, and although there are wealthy people who live in that area it certainly isn't overwhelmed with only the wealthiest of Austinites, so I think that argument is a little weak. actually the equally wealthy north west hills types live closer to highland. as a matter of fact considering that barton creek is closest to the, shall we say more \"rural\" oak hill types, the socio-economics of the area shouldn't play into this. Barton Creek is one of only two major malls in Austin (unless you want to drive all the way out to pflugerville) It's a little ridiculous that they don't carry any formal wear for bigger women. they should just have a smaller selection than the one at Highland if they sell less. it seems a little discriminatory to me and based in subtle racism based on the premise that if they dont carry things that black women want, they won't come shop there.

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EyeHeartPie
December 18, 2008 2:12 PM
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@girlscantell: In all likelihood, they used to carry the plus-sized women formal wear and business suits, and sold very little. They then made a business decision to stop carrying them to save on costs. Nothing racist or discriminatory about it.

If I opened a surfing shop in Alaska, or a ski shop in Texas, sure I might make some sales, but in general, my sales would be dismal, and not worth the cost of running the store (ordering stock, paying lease, paying employees, etc...). Macy's did the same thing. They decided it was not worth the cost of carrying those clothes, and as a business, they have that right. Basically, Amanda's gripe is that they don't carry her size. Not all stores carry all sizes. That one does not carry plus-size clothes, and as a business can choose what to carry and what not to carry.

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octajohnny
December 18, 2008 2:33 AM
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@coddat:

Yes, it's just a matter of demographics. I can go to the Cherry Hill NJ mall and find what I like to usually wear - Kenneth Cole, French Connection, etc... but I go to the King Of Prussia mail, and those sections are non-existent and it has larger Calvin Klein, etc sections... and then I've checked out the Deptford Mall, and was surprised at the overwhelming amount of \"suburban urban\" gear there - i.e. clothing with the brand name clearly marked all over it for the public to see.

At least the lady was just being honest, I don't think she was being insulting in the least - seemed like she was just telling it \"like it is\", and that she doesn't fit into the major demographic for that store. Not necessarily what you want to hear, but it is reality.

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Manraysky
December 18, 2008 12:21 AM
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@coddat: That's exactly what Macy's is like around here. On one side of town, the Macy's has cheaper, more youth oriented clothes, not much for high end. On the other side of town, there's tons of designer.

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Julia789
December 17, 2008 11:47 PM
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I don't doubt that the employee said those things, or that she heard them from management, but it is quite possible she was not supposed to repeat that information to customers. It's possible she overheard that information being spoken between managers and store purchasing agents, etc.

Does the store really carry more plus size clothing simply because of minority populations in the area? It may be simply because they have historically sold more plus size wear in that store, so therefore they expanded the department. If a department is doing well, they'll expand it. If a department is doing poorly, they'll reduce it or eliminate it. However, I know some stores do go by demographics like that, especially when they are just opening up and trying to get a feel of what they should carry to cater to their neighborhood.

But regardless, the appropriate response would have been \"Please try our other store at ____ mall, they carry a larger selection of plus size clothing, which might include some formal wear choices.\"

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Anonymous
December 17, 2008 11:48 PM
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I absolutely empathize and suffer from the same \"problem\" of having a fabulous \"orchestra and balcony\" (Chorus Line reference). For those in the L.A. area who have the curves to make Lumbard Street jealous, I would suggest the Macy's in the Sherman Oaks Fashion Square, as their Women's department is fantastic and covers 2/3 of the 3rd floor. Also, I would suggest Bloomingdale's in the same mall, as I shopped in there last night for duds for Christmas and New Year's Eve parties. I wear a size 18 in the balcony, and my orchestra is a size 16.

This is not hard to swallow, and if you really feel compelled to find a mall w/\"that demographic,\" (attempting not to gag on that statement) try the Fox Hills Mall.

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MarianLibrarian
December 17, 2008 11:48 PM
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Yeah, the problem is Pam giving TMI and being tactless. She should have said, \"I'm really sorry, but we don't sell formals in that size here. You should try the XYZ mall, I know they have a great selection. And I'll pass along to the higher-ups that there is a demand for plus size formals here.\"

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Jessica Benge
December 22, 2008 6:37 PM
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@MarianLibrarian: This is the best response I've read so far. Pam chose her words horribly and made Amanda feel bad. Of course stores have demographics, and it all comes down to money. I think Amanda's best bet is to write a letter to the Barton Creek Macy's management, specifically mention her experience with Pam and inform them that if this is what the employees are being trained to say, then it should be revised and if not, then someone needs to retrain Pam on the best response in this situation. Amanda has already been hurt and may not see any retribution, but the store should know that they have an employee who is potentially turning business away.

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mizike
December 18, 2008 5:58 PM
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@MarianLibrarian: Totally agree. The only problem here is that Pam was incredibly honest and blunt. The information she gave to Amanda was reasonable (that they don't stock those sizes due to lack of demand, but their other location has them), if she had just phrased it in the way you did, there would be no issue.

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moorem2
December 18, 2008 1:57 AM
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@MarianLibrarian:

Too bad the sales rep will retain her job - and still get paid less than ten dollars an hour. She could careless - unless this gets back to her and her manager has a little meeting, or \"coaching session.\" Oh wait - she gets paid for that too and doesn't have to actually do real work

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MadameX
December 18, 2008 12:08 AM
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@MarianLibrarian: Agreed, that is the perfect PC response.

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lydia_gwilt
December 18, 2008 12:26 AM
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@MadameX: Or if you would like to retain a customer.

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Liz Peisner
December 17, 2008 11:49 PM
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I absolutely empathize and suffer from the same \"problem\" of having a fabulous \"orchestra and balcony\" (Chorus Line reference). For those in the L.A. area who have the curves to make Lumbard Street jealous, I would suggest the Macy's in the Sherman Oaks Fashion Square, as their Women's department is fantastic and covers 2/3 of the 3rd floor. Also, I would suggest Bloomingdale's in the same mall, as I shopped in there last night for duds for Christmas and New Year's Eve parties. I wear a size 18 in the balcony, and my orchestra is a size 16.


This is not hard to swallow, and if you really feel compelled to find a mall w/\"that demographic,\" (attempting not to gag on that statement) try the Fox Hills Mall.

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thepassenger
December 17, 2008 11:50 PM
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Does Amanda realize that Macy's and Dillard's are now owned by the same parent company?

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Caprica Six
December 18, 2008 12:06 AM
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@thepassenger: Macy's and Dillards are not owned by Federated:

[www.nndb.com]

\"Owner of Macy's, Bloomingdale's, I. Magnin (defunct), Stern's (defunct), Marshall Field's (defunct), Filene's (defunct) and some others involving the Macy's name. Founded in 1929, operates 465 stores. Federated acquired May Department Stores in 2005 for $11B. The company changed its name to Macy's in 2007.\"

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 10:53 PM
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@coddat: Actually, you're right. But some of Dillard's first aquisations were in TX when DDS bought 5 stores from Federated, so there is a link, but it's not like they are profit-sharing.

Is Federated traded publicly?

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Jaynor
December 17, 2008 11:52 PM
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I find this unfortunate. I personally like to frequent Casual Male - they're definitely more kind to people of my Shrek-like stature. The selection is better, the salespeople look like they shop at the store and they've really done a good job of getting over the whole \"All Plus-Sized Men's Shirts Must Have a Dragon or Flames on Them\" policy of the early 90s ;)

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MosesKabob
December 18, 2008 2:56 PM
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@Jaynor: Thanks for the flashback to my college gaming days. I needed that. :D

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FangDoc
December 18, 2008 4:51 AM
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@Jaynor: I just read your comment aloud to my (large) husband, who now wants to travel back in time to the Casual Male of the early '90s to buy these dragons-and-flames shirts in his size.

Now they seem to be the exclusive province of size-small hipsters who wear them with their girl jeans and irony.

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balthisar
December 18, 2008 3:26 AM
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@Jaynor: And just so the poster who think I'm a fat-biggot based on my other comments, let me say that I also enjoy Casual Male when shopping for myself.

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tomatoheart
December 17, 2008 11:53 PM
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oh come on...there are like 3 people of color in austin, there's no \"black macys\"

As a person of a size 16 I've shopped at Macys in Barton Mall many times, this seems like an isolated incident (though I'm not above bitching about terrible customer service). Regardless racism and fatphobia are disgusting, so take it to the corporate level.

But really letter-writer, if you want a nice cocktail dress head to the nordstrom plus department in the same mall for all your curvy needs. Or perhaps the Rack just down the road, I was surprised by the amount of size 14-16 items there.

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EyeHeartPie
December 18, 2008 2:44 PM
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@delicatetbone: There is too a black Macy's, just as the lady Amanda talked to said. In fact, Highland Mall can be said to be the black mall, while Barton Creek is the white/asian mall. If you've ever been to both, the differences would be apparent.

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HereComesMyBaby
December 18, 2008 4:35 AM
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@delicatetbone: Segregated city does not equal white city.

If there were only like 3 \"people of color\" in Austin I wouldn't have lived there for four years.

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Keter
December 18, 2008 2:50 AM
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@delicatetbone: \"there are like 3 people of color in austin\" - OMG somebody needs new glasses. ;o) Austin is increasingly reminding me of San Antonio, where Caucasians are a minority.

Heh, I was just in Ross off Braker this evening, and there was a lot of nice designer evening wear in there for a great discount, too...I think I was one of two Caucasians in there, so the Macy's gal does have a point about demographics. Demographics are why my Super S out in Lago carries much of the same organic brands Whole Foods does...while the Super S in Castroville mimics HEB with lots of house brands and generics.

Macy's probably should identify this incident as a \"training opportunity,\" however.

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neka78
December 18, 2008 1:04 AM
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@delicatetbone: Wow, so there's like me and 2 others in Austin? Despite the University of Texas with it's 50,000+ student population?

Either you live Stephen Colbert-style where you don't see race. Or...you need to travel around the capital city more.

And we're not even gonna talk about East Austin.

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 4:53 AM
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@neka78: @girlscantell:

so who's the third one? (couldn't help it :D)

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girlscantell
December 18, 2008 3:06 AM
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@neka78: dude, you stole my thunder. thank you for taking the words right out of my mouth.

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940crackparty
December 18, 2008 12:16 AM
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@delicatetbone:
\"there are like 3 people of color in austin\"- wha? Clearly you've never been to Riverside.

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scooter15
December 17, 2008 11:53 PM
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I have had a similar experience at both Macy's and Lord & Taylor in the Chicagoland area. At least the saleswomen I spoke with were more tactful -- each said that \"corporate\" had ordered the removal of the business and dressy outfits and that they didn't know why. It was then suggested that I try one of their other stores, in a less affluent area, of course! I guess I shouldn't be surprised; the nearby mall is now full of stores that cater to women who wear size 0-6.

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WNW
December 17, 2008 11:54 PM
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Sounds like \"demographic\" is a euphemism for \"stereotype\"

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ludwigk
December 18, 2008 4:16 AM
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@WNW: It's not a stereotype. Read some recent literature on obesity. Black Females are the most likely of any demographic to be overweight, with nearly half of all black women in the US being overweight.

This may be a surprise to some people. I was certainly amazed, as I thought hispanics had the highest levels of obesity in the US, as there are many studies done on how immigrants from Mexico fare poorly after adapting to a low-nutrient, fast-food diet in the US.

Contrary to what the Macy's CSR said, obesity is no longer correlated with poverty as strongly as it was 10-20 years ago.

Figures from 2007 show that some staggeringly high percentage of black females are overweight, around 46% (from Fattening of America by Finkelstein and Zuckerman). So that much is just plain true.

What is Macy's going to do about it? Well, they're going to cater to it as best they can to maximize their profits. If that means moving their plus sized stock to black neighborhoods, they'll do it. The CSR was certainly lacking in tact, but the customer was lacking in knowledge and understanding of her own demographic.

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trujunglist
December 23, 2008 7:35 PM
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@WNW:

In other news, there are more Pho places where Vietnamese people live and more Mexican food places in places where Mexicans live. For some reason the McDonald's in Maine serves lobster occasionally (according to some other commenter here). There are no Hilton's in south central LA.

Get fucking real.

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louiedog
December 18, 2008 12:01 AM
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@WNW:

No, it sounds like demographic. Or should Macy's stock all of their stores exactly the same to avoid offending people? This could have been handled differently, but it's got nothing to do with stereotyping.

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Mario Romero
December 17, 2008 11:54 PM
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I don't see this as a big deal. She was told exactly why she couldn't find her size. I don't get why people are so sensitive. She was even told where to best find the size she was looking for. People need to toughen up a bit more.

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closed_account
December 18, 2008 2:48 PM
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@Mario Romero: You say \"People need to toughen up a bit more.\" I say they need to LIGHTEN UP a bit. Literally.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 3:37 AM
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@Mario Romero: I completely agree, if I don't want to sell to a certain group of people I have the right! If she didn't like it, no need getting mad. Do what you did at the end. WALK AWAY. How hard is that? She asked why and when she didn't get the answer she didn't like she threw a fit. My 5 yr old niece does that too though. My two pennies.

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Pavonian
December 18, 2008 1:26 AM
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@Mario Romero:

I think you're missing the point. Mario Romero. Amanda wasn't necessarily upset that she couldn't find a dress in her size (though I'm sure that was an annoyance). She was upset because the clerk, Pam, employed a whole bunch of racist, classist, just plain ignorant stereotypes in the process of helping her.

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xwildebeestx
December 18, 2008 2:58 PM
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@Pavonian: Classist? Really? Do you think that maybe there's a slight difference between WalMart and Macy's? Maybe it's that WalMart caters to a \"smaller wage-earning demographic\", or would that be a classist statement?

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xwildebeestx
December 18, 2008 3:00 PM
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@xwildebeestx: Or maybe Lane Bryant caters to a demographic with \"higher propensity towards caloric consumption\"?

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rdm
December 18, 2008 3:41 AM
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@Pavonian: So a sales clerk was rude. Is this exactly big news? It wasn't like Macy's came out with a press release being classist and racist.

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Pavonian
December 18, 2008 4:34 AM
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@rdm:

Actually, according to the post the clerk wasn't rude at all, and I wouldn't think it's OMG! the end of the world if a sales clerk at Macy's was rude -- frankly, given my experiences there, I'm shocked when one isn't. I think the original poster's point was to express her concern that the clerk was parroting a company policy that encourages race, size, and economic profiling. For a Macy's employee to state that, as far as she knew, the other location stocked more plus sizes because plus sizes have historically sold well in that location is helpful; for a clerk to say that less affluent, black women are fatter is neither helpful not tactful.

My guess would be that the clerk was probably speaking for herself and not for the company as a whole, but I would hope that Macy's would want to hear about an employee representing the store's buying decisions in that light. Having said that, it IS a bit of a tempest in a teapot -- it sounds to me like one well-meaning but ill-advised employee stepping out and giving the store a bad name.

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balthisar
December 18, 2008 3:27 AM
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@Pavonian: She kept referring to demographics. That's not racist and ignorant. It's ignorant to not understand what demographics are.

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Pavonian
December 18, 2008 4:40 AM
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@balthisar:

If the clerk had said that the other store carries more plus sizes because plus sizes tend to sell better at that particular location, that would be helpful information (hell, maybe the clerk did say just that -- all that's given above is the customer's version, and who knows? Maybe she embellished.) But if the clerk really did say that \"women of color tend to be larger,\" that's a sweeping generalization based on race.

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harlock_JDS
December 18, 2008 1:39 PM
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@Pavonian: But a 'sweeping generalization' proven to be true by the sales of plus size clothing at the store in a ethnically diverse area.

I don't know why OP was surprised about this. Has she really never noticed the selection of plus size clothing is greater in some area's than other areas? Must fat people (like myself and my wife) already know this and automatically go to the 'fatty malls' when clothing shopping.

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redbess
December 18, 2008 12:11 AM
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@Mario Romero: I hope you're a troll.

There is such a thing as tact and being polite, and Pam failed at this. Yes, maybe she told the truth, which might be okay if Pam and Amanda were friends. But Pam is trying to sell a product and thus must follow certain procedures in order to please the customer and insure repeat business. Pam failed.

Have you ever worked in retail? I'm assuming not.

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silver-bolt
December 18, 2008 12:24 AM
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@redbess: Actually, Pam is not trying to sell a product... Can't you see, they don't cater to that size...

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Parting
December 18, 2008 12:00 AM
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@Mario Romero: Ah, maybe look in the mirror? If you are that nice to people surrounding you... Then you must have a lot of ''real'' facebook friends?

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Parting
December 18, 2008 12:00 AM
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@Meltdown: p.s. Why get insulted at my comment? You need to toughen up a little.

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dinobuddy
December 17, 2008 11:55 PM
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Why would anyone think the actual explanation would be a better one than simply stating, \"There isn't enough consumer demand at this location to justify carrying those sizes\"?

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Sanveann
December 18, 2008 12:25 AM
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@dinobuddy: That was my thought exactly. Pam should have said, \"I'm sorry, this location doesn't carry formalwear above a size 12. But you can find those sizes at our Highland Mall location.\" If a further explanation was requested, she could have said, \"We just found that those sizes didn't sell well at this store.\"

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kingmanic
December 18, 2008 12:13 AM
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@dinobuddy: Dumber people tend to think more verbose answers are always better. Maybe the clerk just wasn't bright.

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AT203
December 17, 2008 11:58 PM
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We bemoan that companies don't speak to us honestly, and now when we are presented with honest information, we pillory them for that.

Lacking in tact? Yes, perhaps. But it appears to be honest, and I don't see any malice in it...

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redbess
December 18, 2008 12:15 AM
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@AT203: Honest is saying \"I'm sorry, we find that we don't sell enough plus-size clothing to justify carrying it. The Macy's at Mall X has an excellent selection, however, so I hope you try that.\"

Anyone who's ever worked in retail knows this.

Honest is not a long, drawn-out explanation that sounds insulting.

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Parting
December 18, 2008 12:03 AM
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@AT203: I doubt that's honesty... More like stupidity. The reasons rep given, cannot be applied in general, so I say ''bulls@it!''.
(One of my pals works in marketing, it's not as easy defining clothing demographics, as this ''customer service lady'' said.)

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krunk4ever
December 18, 2008 12:00 AM
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Personally, I find nothing wrong with Macy's catering to a specific crowed due to demographics, and another Macy's across town catering to another crowd. Similar to why stores near a large Hispanic population would carry more Hispanic products and stores near a large Asian population would carry more Asian products. It's really nothing against the buyers. I (being Asian) would not expected to find everything I'm used to in the LA/SF area compared to in the middle of America.

They've probably done their homework. The amount of large size formal clothing just doesn't get sold that often at the store and as a company that is \"trying\" to make money, it doesn't make much sense to stock them. Of course, once in awhile, you do have a customer like Amanda, and the only thing they can do is recommend her to try a different store.

However, I will agree that Pam could've definitely said it in much nicer terms to Amanda (i.e. Unfortunately our store doesn't carry sizes over X, you should try the store over at Highlands, or if you prefer, you can order it now and we'll have the store ship it here in the next few days for you to purchase.).

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Mafalda para Presidente
December 18, 2008 5:25 AM
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@krunk4ever: Agreed. It's not like Macy's doesn't carry plus-sized at all, they just carry them at different stores depending on the statistics. If they sell better at one location, then that location will order more of those clothes. It's not discrimination, it's business.

The Whole Foods I frequent in my city doesn't carry tortillas. Now, I am of Mexican descent so I love my tortillas, and you bet if they made them organic I'd be the happiest shopper in the world. However, I didn't throw a fit or get offended or cry racism to the corporate offices. It's simply that there aren't that many people around here who'd look for tortillas at that Whole Foods. I just get my tortillas elsewhere.

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chortik
December 18, 2008 12:02 AM
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while the wording could have been more sensitive, what's wrong with catering to the demographic living in a particular area? i shop in china town for asian groceries, i don't go demanding them in brighton beach.

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SomatraNumski
December 18, 2008 12:05 AM
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I don't see the issue. they are in it to make a profit, and so some stores may carry things that suites their demographic better.

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carlogesualdo
December 18, 2008 12:19 AM
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@SomatraNumski: The issue isn't the demographics the store uses to make the profit. The store wasn't wrong to do that. The issue is in how the sales clerk conveyed that information to the customer. She didn't deserve such callous treatment. I think the store clerk forgot she was dealing with a human who has emotions about such things and might take it personally.

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carlogesualdo
December 18, 2008 12:22 AM
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@carlogesualdo: Let me rephrase...I don't think the store was wrong to not to spend money stocking up their store with items that don't sell well. But in rereading the article, I do see where the writer does feel that is a racist move.

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louiedog
December 18, 2008 12:06 AM
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I would much rather know why Store 1 doesn't carry the same stuff as Store 2. Just saying, \"Sorry, we don't carry anything like that in your size,\" is only helpful for that one store. Knowing WHY they don't will help future shopping at all stores.

The big chain grocery stories in my city carry different products depending on neighborhood. Because of this I know not to look for a wide assortment of Mexican cheeses near Chinatown, but I will in the Hispanic section of town.

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FangDoc
December 18, 2008 5:00 AM
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@louiedog: There are definitely \"A\", \"B\", and \"C\" versions of the same department store in my area, and the \"C\" stores don't stock much in the way of business and formal wear in any size.

My problem with all of this is where it stops being \"demographic\" and starts being a self-fulfilling prophecy: we don't stock plus-sized formals because they don't sell, so anyone wanting a plus-sized formal goes elsewhere to where they do sell. This is why I don't have a problem with stores asking for my zip code: if you start to notice your crosstown store is getting a lot of business from my neighborhood, when you have a store *in* my neighborhood, what on earth is going wrong with your store in my neighborhood that it's not actually serving my neighbors and me?

Yeah, Queensgate shopping center BonTon, I'm talking to you!

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BluePlastic
December 18, 2008 12:28 AM
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@louiedog: The solution to that would be for Pam to explain that the larger sizes sell better at the other location and so there's more selection there, rather than implying that it's because there are more poor, fat, black people over there.

What if you asked a grocery store whether or not they stock an item and they said no, try our other location, where there are more poor, fat, black/Hispanic/whatever people who want to eat more varieties of cheese.

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carlogesualdo
December 18, 2008 12:13 AM
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@louiedog: Honestly, the question of \"but why?\" should only be answered when truly pressed for it. This reaction is the result of TMI. I used to work for someone who regularly spouted TMI. At best, it turns off the customer, and at worst, well, you can see where this could potentially lead to a lawsuit. Honesty is great. But don't offer it unless you're sure the customer really wants it.

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RainyKate
December 18, 2008 12:06 AM
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Are those sizes really \"plus\"?

I ask because I was dress shopping with my PERFECTLY NORMAL SIZED friend this weekend, who couldn't find a nice dress in her size (I won't share cause it's her business) at macy's.

So this story feels too relevant.

Honestly, why do we have to label the difference in sizes in terms of \"bigness\" More important (to me at 6 feet tall) is height differences - petites, talls, etc... Another 6 feet tall person may be two sizes bigger or smaller than me but still have a similarly positioned waist/bust/hips.

Sigh... if I were in charge....

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CorrieCJ
December 18, 2008 5:32 PM
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@RainyKate: I'm 5'0\" and curvy. My weight is between 120-130 but a lot of it is in my, er, upper body. The problem is that in order to get a shirt or jacket that actually fits over my womanly curves, I have to buy a 14 or 16 - which ends up being way too long in the sleeves and/or too bulky in the shouders. Often even the XL size is too small in that area - and petite sizes are often no better. I also had the experience of looking for a fancy formal gown when I was pregnant -- EVERYTHING I looked at, EVERYWHERE was designed to be worn with no bra or strapless bra. I asked a clerk, don't most women need EXTRA support there when pregnant, and she had no answer for me...

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:22 AM
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@CorrieCJ: I used to work at Victoria's Secret so I'll let you in on what I learned from my stint in retail hell. The best bras to get for support are bras with thicker straps because they'll give you boost without making you feel like you're wearing plated armor. The key is to buy the right size. If you're a C cup, don't squeeze yourself into a B. When you try on bras, if you see your flesh squeezed in where the bra comes around your sides, it's on too tight, and if it's on the last set of hooks, you're wearing the wrong size.

Formal wear truly is the worst...the best option for more well endowed women is the halter straps because they hold it all in and balance your body.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 4:50 AM
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@RainyKate: Almost every man I've dated has not considered me fat. I'm a size 14. Body fat % is within normal range, my hip bones just don't go in any more sorry.

I've gotten the plus size comments before..for anything 14+ is plus size now. This baffles me because if you want to go by \"DEMOGRAPHICS\" the average woman is like 10-14 anyway..yet you see these trendy stores filled with 0-7 sizes. The reason they don't have clients of different sizes is not that the clients don't exist. It's that they don't have the product.

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HogwartsAlum
December 18, 2008 1:08 AM
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@RainyKate:

Sizes vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, also. When I was skinnier, I could wear some things in a size 12.

As a woman who is nearly 6 feet tall, my biggest problem is finding clothing that has sleeves long enough and pants that are long enough. The stores have huge petite departments, but if there are any tall sizes there at all, I have to hunt for them.

Sometimes I have to buy larger sizes in shirts so that my shoulders will fit in them. And usually, the sleeves are too short. *sigh*

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FangDoc
December 18, 2008 5:04 AM
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@HogwartsAlum: A friend of mine from college had the same problem, and you know where she was sent?

Not the Black Macy's, but the Transvestite Bamberger's.

No kidding. That's actually what she was told. \"We refer all our cross-dressing male clients to that store because of their extensive tall women's selection.\"

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HogwartsAlum
December 19, 2008 3:13 AM
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@FangDoc:

You know what? I would love that. \"...extensive tall women's selection...\" *droooool*

The transvestites and transsexuals I knew in college had way better wardrobes than I did. I used to get so jealous. Especially since they were shorter than me and I couldn't borrow their clothes.

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Etoiles
December 18, 2008 2:36 PM
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@FangDoc: Women with large feet also often get directed to transvestite shoe stores for heels.

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Sanveann
December 18, 2008 12:29 AM
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@RainyKate: You know, I wouldn't think that anything over a 12 would automatically be plus-size, either. I'm a 12 or, sometimes, a 14 (when not massively pregnant, which I am right now), and I don't think of myself as a plus-size person. I'm a little above average weight, and at 5'10\", I'm definitely above average height ... but I think of plus-size as size 18 or above, at least, not 12 or above.

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RainyKate
December 18, 2008 12:36 AM
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@Sanveann: That's similar to the way I think. Particularly given the way that vanity sizing changes things, and the differences in sizing by manufacturers, I would think that 14s and 16s wouldn't necessarily be plus sizes.

@kingmanic: Do you mean geographic or area of the body? 'Cause I live in DC and there are people of all sizes here!

@redbess: My mom's a big sewer and I have a sewing machine, but I haven't got the patience. Yet!

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redbess
December 18, 2008 12:17 AM
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@RainyKate: This is why I've taught myself to sew and taken lessons. Clothing off-the-rack never fits unless you're completely average in every way.

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louiedog
December 18, 2008 12:11 AM
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@RainyKate: As a man, do you know what's nice? When I want to buy pants I can measure my waist and inseam and find perfectly fitting pants easily.

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RainyKate
December 18, 2008 12:12 AM
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@louiedog: I found a ladies brand of jeans that does that and LIVE in them.

I can go anywhere and buy pants for my husband (30 inch inseam) or my brother (36 inch inseam). Jealous!

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katknits
December 18, 2008 12:08 AM
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I experienced something similar (but not quite so blunt) at the Lord and Taylor in Boston... They used to carry plus sized dresses, then suddenly they stopped. I was treated very rudely by the staff and was told essentially tough cookies that I can no longer buy a dress in my size.

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LovelyHue
December 18, 2008 12:11 AM
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No, it definitely sounds like Pam ground her ax on Amanda. Even if the information was correct, the manner in which it was presented was completely unprofessional.

In that situation, I would report Pam. I might not get an apology, but at least there would be consequences for her actions.

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HogwartsAlum
December 18, 2008 1:09 AM
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@LovelyHue:

Yes, I agree. If anyone said that to me, I would think she was a huge bee-yotch!

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Liz11685
December 18, 2008 12:13 AM
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I too have found that shopping for anything above a size 8 at Macy's can be really difficult. I usually wear a 12, and I had a formal event to go to last Christmas. I nearly started sobbing in the store, because they had nothing at all for me. I consider myself slightly overweight and curvy, but there are millions of people larger than me and I can only imagine what it is like to try and shop in places that are so outright discriminatory.

I eventually found a kickass outfit at Banana Republic, which I consider higher caliber than Macy's.

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WindyCityGigi
December 18, 2008 12:14 AM
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It's not just Macy's. I am a plus-sized woman and I can tell you from experience that if you want to find a large selection of plus-sized clothing, you go to the malls in African American neighborhoods and skip the malls where the population is mostly caucasian.


It's simply the way it is.


While I don't agree with the way it was presented, and I think the salesperson needs a lesson in tact, I don't think she had incorrect information.

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Drew5764
December 18, 2008 12:14 AM
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This is Macy's! You'd think they'd have a large selection!

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 4:51 AM
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@Drew5764: Nono, you want JC Penneys. Seriously. Got a very very nice suit there once. And they carried it up to a size 24 even.

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ninles
December 18, 2008 12:19 AM
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I don't think \"Pam\" is the problem here, but the directions she and all the employees get from upstairs. Meanwhile, these idiots are losing money. Heh.

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FionaMallard
December 18, 2008 12:21 AM
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As soon as I read \"Highland Mall,\" I knew this was in Austin. Not saying that what Pam said was right, but I can't say I'm remotely surprised. I bet she was at Barton Creek Mall or The Domain. It's actually true that rich women in Austin are more often thin than larger because Austin is a fit-obsessed city where wealthy women are expected to have personal trainers or be BFF with the owner of the popular running store in town. It's also a pretty casual city and most of the need for formal wear is probably for high school proms and the odd social event that doesn't let people wear whatever the hell they want, including jeans.

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phoblog
December 18, 2008 12:24 AM
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First, I'm surprised since, as a lifelong Macy's shopper who has needed to shop from both regular and women's depts at various time, I never noticed a lack of women's wear of any style at any of a number of local Macy's.


However, I can analogize to the shoe Dept. First, Macy's never carries size 11s, because they suck, but in other dept stores, it's pretty much commonly understood that if you're at either end of the spectrum when it comes to shoes, that there can be better and worse stores in which to find items. I have great success at dept stores in areas with a larger Asian clientele (my friend with size 5 feet, however, can never find her size because it's long sold out). If I'm at a store in an African American area, then I can't find 11s as easily. Not all Asian feet are small and not all African American feet are large, however, on average, Asian feet are smaller, thus creating a higher demand for small sizes and a lower demand for large sizes.


This came out poorly from the clerk's mouth, but sales demographics exist and are not merely stereotypes or bigotry.


Newsflash: East Coast stores have larger coat, scarf, and hat departments because that's what customers there need. And it's very hard to find galoshes in California.

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robotsattack
December 18, 2008 12:25 AM
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from what i understand, this blog, aptly titled \"the consumerist\" was created to encourage readers to buck the system, be shop saavy and draw attention to the institutionalized bullshit of the consumer world, such as with amanda's case.


for this reason, it shocks me that a good bulk of this site's audience have the least heart and sound like robots: we have mario here @6:54 PM telling amanda to buck up for being offended that she was called poor and fat to her face and a slew of other comments blithely justifying the manner in which the customer service person dealt with amanda.


shouldn't we be fighting this system that degrades women, people of color, and people of \"non-mainstream\" body types instead of making excuses for it?

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phoblog
December 18, 2008 12:38 AM
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@robotsattack: It's not necessarily degrading - that's the point. Amanda should pick up the dress she likes in size 12 and say \"hi, does this come in size 16 and if so, can you tell me where to find it or have it transfered to this store or ship it to my house?\" If more shoppers request that particular kind of garment in a particular size, a store will begin to stock it. It's supply and demand based on receipts. They don't review surveillance footage for who is handing over the Macy's card at check out. WHen at the end of the season they have no more size 2s, but 8 size 18s, next season, they aren't going to order as many size 18s until maybe they just don't bring in that size at all.


I used to shop in the women's section and I've ALWAYS had trouble finding larger shoes - but I know where to shop and I know how to ask for special orders and advice on where to shop.

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ZoeSchizzel
December 18, 2008 12:26 AM
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I guess I'm a fact nerd (and a Sociology nerd), because I always want to know EXACTLY why something isn't available here but is available somewhere else. When I see unexplained things, I go into research mode and in that mode I cannot be offended. It's all data. Maybe Pam is from the same school of thought (or personality) and she thought she was being helpful to the customer -- telling her why this particular store didn't stock the item, and where to purchase said item in the future because the corporate structure of department stores relies heavily on demographic data (however flawed) to determine stock choices because that's really the only way they have of making such difficult choices. Why get all bent? The customer now knows where to shop to get exactly what she wants and won't waste her time in that store again.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 4:52 AM
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@ZoeSchizzel: The thing is..is it really demographics, or is it a lack of supply makes for no demand?

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RogueWarrior65
December 18, 2008 12:28 AM
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I remember there used to be these TV ads for the Lane Bryant catalog and the Big & Tall Men catalogs and I always thought Saturday Night Live should do a skit called The Freak Of Nature catalog. You know, gloves with six fingers, sweaters with three arm holes, bikinis with three cups...

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hagette
December 18, 2008 12:29 AM
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Retail can be sadly racist. I worked at a makeup counter at Macy's in 2001 and worked for a woman who blatantly discriminated in her treatment to customers. She kissed ass if the customer was white and had a dismissive, 'they-probably-can't-afford-it' attitude if the customer wasn't white. She'd also say things to me like, 'I don't mind black women, I just wouldn't want my son to marry one'. I made a complaint against her but all she got was a warning. I quit after that.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 4:55 AM
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@hagette: Did she also discriminate against women who didn't look like they had money? One of the stores here does that.

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mzs
December 18, 2008 12:30 AM
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I actually very much like how this worker explained everything in great detail with no BS. She even offered a solution of another store that would be better. No where did she seem rude. I used to work electronics at Monkey Wards. I used to be very truthful, helpful, and polite to people that had problems with their computers, radios, TVs, and VCRs and every once in a while a customer would take it the wrong way and my manager would learn about it. The second one I had was a true prick but the first and third were understanding.

I mean this was very similar to a real thing that happened to me where a customer was furious we had nothing for betamax and I referred him to the Radio Shack in the mall two blocks away. He got mad and I calmy explained that betamax had died for maybe five years ago, that the tapes did not record as much time, and the stuff was too expensive, and because of those reasons we would not sell enough to justify stocking it.

WELL it turned-out that 'video proffesionals' (read pirates) all used beta and that tapes were now longer duration, and that you paid for quality, etc. He really let me know it. I just did not care, he was the only person asking about betamax ever, there was no way MW would make money on stocking tapes and sets. Also why did he not just go to he RS like I suggested?

Anyway at retail you learn that you see all types. My least favorite were the retirees that just needed someone to talk to but would never buy anything, but that is a completely different matter.

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tooki
December 18, 2008 2:15 AM
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@mzs: I bet that in that entire exchange, neither of you said Betamax, just Beta. Betamax is indeed a dead consumer format that never really caught on. Professionals never used Betamax, they used Betacam, which is a professional version of the Beta format. He wasn't a pirate, he was a pro who also didn't know the difference. To this day, \"DigiBeta\" is common in broadcast, though it is on its way out thanks to the HD formats.

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mzs
December 18, 2008 3:12 PM
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@tooki: Who knows what term I used, this was in the '90s. I don't and didn't know the difference. Thanks for the explanation though, you were much nicer in explaining than he was. I know he was a pirate because he told me what he did was tape HBO movies, duplicate them, and sell them at the big Flee market across the street.

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robotrousers
December 18, 2008 12:31 AM
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I think she's overreacting just a tad. She never said \"you're too fat for this macy's.\" Yes, she's guilty of stating marketing crap verbatim, but so what? You're a big girl honey, ain't nothin' wrong with that. Just shop somewhere else.
As far as Macy's catering to \"demographics\" I'd have to agree. The Macy's in downtown Seattle has a way better selection of men's clothes than in Northgate, including some high-end brands (like Hugo Boss). Conversely, they carry less young mens hip brands like LRG, where Northgate has a good selection. The clothes go where the market/money is.

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robotsattack
December 18, 2008 12:40 AM
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@robotrousers:


Again, it shocks me that a good bulk of this site's audience sound like heartless robots. Sure, the service person didn't say: \"God, youre a fat bitch\" but shouldn't we be fighting the system that degrades and margininalizes women, people of color, and people of \"non-mainstream\" body types instead of making excuses for it? Shouldn't we take down the walls of this institution instead of just \"finding another store to shop at\"? And as mentioned by another reader, Dillards (the store Amanda eventually went to) and Macys is owned by the same parent company. Shopping at another store isnt going to get you anywhere, honey- in the grand scheme of things that is.


And if you want to give me some capitalist bullshit about how the market determines who gets served, our founding father Thomas Jefferson once said that the majority should never determine the rights or will of the minority.

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dantsea
December 18, 2008 1:14 AM
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@robotsattack: Funny, I thought we were all supposed against the useless platitudes served up by companies as opposed to real and hopefully useful information. I wish someone told me the agenda had changed.

Also, Dillards isn't at all related to Federated (Macys parent company).

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 12:33 AM
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I'm not sure if this will help but anytime my mother has had a problem with any Macy's she has always called the Macy's San Francisco. It's the Macy's West Hub meaning that when you speak with the manager here he or she mean's business. For example: I bought a pair of boots from Macy's San Francisco, exchanged them in Macy's las vegas, and got a price adjustment two weeks later when they went on sale at Macy's in Hayward. Call Macy's San Francisco (415) 397-3333 speak with Lori Randolph V.P. General Manager or the Executive on duty.

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rte148
December 18, 2008 12:38 AM
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Right up Bad Santa's ally.

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schiff
December 18, 2008 12:40 AM
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Since the sales associate said women of color, perhaps it would be appropriate to point out that there are women of color who are not black...

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T.
December 18, 2008 12:47 AM
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That is hilarious. I love it. And I agree, she needs to toughen up.

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Outrun1986
December 18, 2008 12:48 AM
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What I don't understand about all of this is if there are so many fat people in this country then why are stores not catering to them? It seems that they are losing a huge potential market if they only stock clothes that women size 1-10 can wear, yet retailers are whining and whining that profits are down. Fat people will need clothes at some point. The children's department at my Sears is packed, why you ask, because they are the only retailer I can think of that sells plus sized childrens clothing. People bombard that department in Sears, and that department is pretty much the only reason people shop at Sears.

Go to the mall, there are tons of fat people walking around, and they aren't just eating in the food court...

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CassetteLove
December 18, 2008 5:15 AM
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@Outrun1986: Because plus sized clothing is more expensive to produce and is produced in smaller quantities than 'mainstream' sized clothing. Essentially, it's a specialty product, and as the OP is referring to purchasing a evening dress, even more of a niche.

Fashion manufacturers are not stupid, they're in it for the money, just like everyone else. If the market demanded and the effort was profitable, they would answer.

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:27 AM
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@CassetteLove: The larger size bras at Victoria's Secret are almost all exclusively online (not in stores) and are more expensive. The reasoning for them not being in stores is nothing against fat people - it's that there are plenty of smaller people who happen to be well endowed, but there aren't enough in the Es to Is range to warrant carrying enough of them in the store. Most women are Bs and Cs.

I can apply that rationale to plus sized clothing, the only problem is there actually is a significant population of fat people and they all need clothing, and it's sad companies and stores don't think they deserve NICE clothing.

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CassetteLove
December 19, 2008 6:26 PM
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@ChildrenAreSticky: I'm not denying there aren't many fat people who deserve nice clothing. But it is a chicken/egg scenario: WalMart (whom I guess it probably the largest seller of plus sized across the board) will continue to stock plus sized because people buy it there because WalMart sells it. WalMart has little incentive to make quality clothing, period. And thus the cycle continues.

I think as 'we' get fatter we will see an increase in the plus sized market, along with even greater vanity sizing in 'mainstream' sizes. But IMO the cost will always be a prohibitive factor because it simply costs more to make it.

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TangDrinker
December 18, 2008 12:31 PM
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@CassetteLove: It is profitable. Plus sized clothing runs $5 to $25 more for the same item.

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CassetteLove
December 18, 2008 2:40 PM
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@TangDrinker: That's only to cover the added cost of making it. It's costing manufacturers more to produce an item which they will make in a smaller quantity which is rarely profitable. That overhead markup is not going directly to the manufacturers, it get split between them, the wholesaler/designer, and the retailer.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 4:57 AM
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@Outrun1986: Because if they ignore the fat people, maybe they'll go away. -.-

Fat people are lazy, and they don't have any money, and they're slobs. Why would they want to sell clothing to them? No one loves fat people, they don't go to parties or get married or anything like that. (Please note I do not believe any of that.)

Sears and JC Penney's here are packed for the same reason. Macy's is almost always next to empty.

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TrueBlue63
December 18, 2008 12:49 AM
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I'm tall 6' 5\" and I'm fat, and I know that department stores like Macy's do not tend to carry things for me. They don't have anything against me, it just isn't profitable to stock stuff for me. I am sure that with modern data systems, each Macy's stocks what they know they can sell. And the very expensive tall/large mens store I go to has many pictures of African American sports figures that shop with them. Being white, does that mean they are telling me not to shop there? Is that racist??

I bet the clerk was trying to be helpful. Their isn't anything derogatory about what she said. And she gave helpful information.

Maybe the headline should be, Macy's leading way with re-invigorated customer service, Helps client find what they want in another store!

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dkissam
December 18, 2008 9:20 AM
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@TrueBlue63:
The majority of American women are size 14 and over, though. The majority of American men are not 6'5 and fat. It makes economic sense to not stock specialty items that are only wearable by a small number of people. It doesn't make economic sense to treat everything that over half the country requires as specialty items and choose not to stock them.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 12:54 AM
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Sometime ago Macy's marketing plan decided to limit, exclude and discourage plus size women shoppers. Having gained weight over the years I now wear plus sizes and no longer shop at Macy's due to the lack of choices offered to my 'demographic'. In my thinner youth, I spent most of my salary at the department store. When I moved away and the Macy branch closed, friends jokedi the store could not survive without my support. It amazes me that the buyers and managers choose this marketing strategy as large size clothing is the 'largest' section of the industry. All 'women' departments in Macy's stores were relocated during various renovations during the last few years. Woman's clothing was separated from the areas housing other female clothing departments - petite, ladies, etc.- and moved to the basement next to luggage, housewares and children. So I stopped patronizing the store and no longer spend my money in a business that offers the plus size 'demographic' separate and unequal choices.

I do not blame Pam for stating the truth of the company plan; Blame the managers. They choose this business plan and Pam just follows it. I am glad that someone finally discussed
how Macy's treats this segment of its potential shoppers.

As to toughing up and growing a thicker skin - why bother? I can choose to shop elsewhere and give the benefit of my
money to a store that does not treatment as a lesser person.

As to toughing up and

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strathmeyer
December 18, 2008 12:58 AM
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I don't suppose you guys want to hear me gripe about how I am technically obese and am often told that they don't make pants in my height that are withing two inches of my waist.

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floraposte
December 18, 2008 1:16 AM
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@strathmeyer: Pants too big or too small? If the former, get thee to a tailor and get 'em taken in. People are oddly resistant to alterations, I find, but the fact is almost nobody (female, anyway) fits everything off the rack; it's just that some of us can't deny it! I just factor the necessary alteration cost into the purchase decision now, and it's saved me a lot of time and actually allowed me to use my modest clothing budget more effectively.

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katewrath
December 18, 2008 12:58 AM
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Nobody has ever given me such a bullshit explanation (and thank Christ, b/c I would probably stroke out during the ensuing argument, and I hope to live to, at least, my 35th birthday), but I have encountered this EXACT problem more times than I count. It boils down thusly:

1. Forget trying to buy a formal dress with sleeves anywhere in Southern California. It cannot be done. When Helen Mirren wants to attend the Oscars, I believe she has her sleeved dress custom made or shipped from London.

2. If you can find such a dress, it will be size 2 or 4. Maybe a 6, but that's really pushing it.

3. Ditto well-made, well-tailored blazers and jackets. You would think they were mink-lined mukluks for how rare they are in a Southern California store.

4. You will, however, have your choice of cheap, tissue-thin tanks and short-sleeve tees. You could probably build a house made entirely of the inventory of these garments in your average Macy's.

5. In Chicago, you will have a vast array of formal dresses with sleeves to choose from, in every size north of 6 your heart could desire, plus a generous array of blazers and jackets.

6. I do not know, but suspect, that the truly skinny people in Chicago have to order all their clothes off the internet, or shop exclusively on Southport Ave., aka Welcome to Paradise, Size 2 Shoppers!

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floraposte
December 18, 2008 1:04 AM
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To me, there are two things going on in Amanda's letter. She's upset about Pam's statements to her, and she's upset that Macy's doesn't consider it worthwhile to carry clothes that fit her. And I think she needs to focus on one if she's going to write a complaint.

I don't see the second getting her anywhere. Macy's has put money in figuring out what repays their floor costs in that location, and none of us are entitled to have our sizes included in any particular store. So I'd pick the first, focusing on the training and accuracy of information issue, noting that even if Macy's was okay with her not purchasing this item there, they presumably would be keen to have her shop for other items and her family's clothes, and to avoid speaking with hostility of Macy's to everybody in Texas.

But it's only worth it if she can figure out what she wants. It may be enough just for her to get it off her chest. However, if she's still seriously upset about the second issue, getting a corporate letter that restates the policy may make her even unhappier.

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Sarah of Get Cooking
December 18, 2008 1:05 AM
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Try Torrid. They are for younger audiences (I'd say 20-somethings and below) but you can definitely find stylish clothes for \"plus\" sizes there. They even have a great mail-order policy which works wonderfully once you know your size there. They are affordable, though not necessarily classy or very high quality, they do offer a wide, changing selection of clothes that definitely aren't muumuus.

[www.torrid.com]

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wiggatron
December 18, 2008 1:09 AM
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Sooooo, does she just want it sugar-coated? The clerk layed out the actual factual on the situation and that's all. I hate how sensitive (as a nation) we've become.

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Anonymous
April 9, 2009 6:43 PM
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@wiggatron: I hate how completely devoid of tact, awareness of one's words, and plain old good business sense the people here are showing themselves to be. Even if you don't give a rat's ass about others' feelings, you'll have to realize that diplomacy is key when it comes to ensuring repeat business.

Forget being nice to people because it's the right thing to do -- be nice to them because if you're mean to them, they don't come back and keep giving you money.

There. Is that sufficiently heartless to understand?

V

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TechnoDestructo
December 18, 2008 1:15 AM
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Recently I was at a K-mart and on the back of a rack of snacks I saw a sheet of paper in a document protector. It was instructions on how to arrange the snacks in \"non-hispanic\" K-marts.

Presumably there is a different order in which a different mix of snack items are to be placed on the rack for the hispanic crowd.

I should go back and see if it is still there.

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Rutledge Matthew
December 18, 2008 1:17 AM
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Is this from Austin, Texas? Highland Mall is in Austin, they have a Macy's, and is technically much closer to areas where the concentration of black people is higher. Just curious...

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lpbucw
December 18, 2008 1:23 AM
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If this is real....

then I'm siding with Macy's. I think the clerk was just being honest -- you're not owed anything more than an apology, and only that would be as a sign of good faith.

They are out there to make money, and that means stocking their store in a strategic way. I think she was actually quite helpful in directing you to their store that would stock more items in your size.

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gerbilsoutofexile (kickin' anti-d's old skool, ba-beeee)
December 18, 2008 1:25 AM
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Wait - Macy's is \"upscale\"?


Since when?

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TechnoDestructo
December 18, 2008 5:09 AM
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@gerbilsoutofexile (kickin' anti-d's old skool, ba-beeee):

They don't appear in every strip mall in the country. They're noticably more expensive than most of the ones that do. They may not be high-end, but they're not low-end. To people in poorer communities, they would be upscale. (OTOH, I thought this site was run by New Yorkers)

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pecan 3.14159265
December 19, 2008 5:30 AM
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@TechnoDestructo: Well, I'd even dispute that in poorer areas they're considered upscale...in the D.C. metro area they're a normal class of department store, while Bloomingdales, Barneys, Neiman Marcus and Nordstroms occupy the upper tiers.

Below Macy's is the Macy's that used to be Hechts (I've noticed a significant difference in the Macy's that started out as a Macy's, and the one that was converted from a Hechts) and then the truly, truly CRAPPY low end department stores are JC Penney and Sears.

Macy's in poorer areas tend to have crappier clothing, IMO. So what is low or upscale is entirely subjective, because Macy's in different areas carry different quality of clothing. The Macy's in my local mall is spectacular. The Macy's where I work, however, looks like remnants of a garage sale.

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guroth
December 18, 2008 1:35 AM
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They don't carry plus sizes because there is not enough of a demand for them to justify the rack space. The sales associate told the customer this, and actually included additional detail and explanation for everything that she stated.

She did not appear to have stated it in a malicious, hateful, or derogatory way, and in fact seems to have used some rather politically correct vocabulary. The customer accuses the sales associate of racism towards blacks, despite being black.

The Macy's in the \"black neighborhood\" isn't going to carry plus sizes just because it is a stereotype. They are going to carry what there is demand for.

I would have been extremely happy receiving such an honest and thorough answer, but maybe that's because I value honesty and truth over a facade of sensitivity.

If we change some of the variables in the story, would the consumer still be as offended? What if the sales associate said \"I'm sorry, we don't cater to your size here, you can try the Macy's down in Malibu where the celebrity customers there tend to have perfect shape and muscle tone\"

This is a story that is too easily taken out of context to creation media sensation. People need to quit being so sensitive.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 1:36 AM
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obviously i wasn't there and can't tell what tone she actually used, but when i read the transcript of the conversation at first it sounded to me like pam was being sort of an awesome conspiratorial whistle-blower and revealing the hideous, fascinating secrets of the way the evil marketing people's minds work. i did find it really interesting, and not implausible, that someone in the macy's chain of command came to those conclusions about weight, class, and color, and the fact that pam was revealing those thought processes didn't to me suggest that she necessarily shared them and wanted to impose them on the customer--more like a \"this is what the man does\" expose. after all, it wasn't she who was deciding whether or not to carry plus-sized formal wear. it wasn't until i read that the customer was hurt that i realized that maybe the woman was just being bitchy. in which case, i really don't know what the best thing to do is. as far as the content of her bitchiness (the insulting way in which department stores think about \"demographics\"), i guess that's just one of those societal things we have to keep fighting from the ground up.

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Novaload
December 18, 2008 1:38 AM
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I hang out on Jalopnik but come here for useful info etc.--and I read the guidelines, not to attack the person writing in, to be constructive--but this and the Circuit City story prove those guidelines really don't matter.
See you later.

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snackiepoo
December 18, 2008 1:40 AM
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I completely feel Amanda's pain. Irnonically I had a similar situation at Macy's in Irvine, CA last week and wrote about it here. (warning: my language is not always clean!)

I am appalled that your experience was even *more* horrible than mine in that they seemed to pull out all of the prejudices in one fell swoop.

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Scatter
December 18, 2008 1:44 AM
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No offense but if you don't want to have to deal with the inconveniences of being fat then don't be fat. Amanda should be mad at herself for letting herself fall apart, not at Pam for politely explaining Macy's policies.

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Consumerist-Moderator-Roz
December 18, 2008 3:16 PM
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@Scatter: Preceding an offensive comment with \"no offense\" does not fix it. This is trolling, and do not do this again.

The issue of the article isn't about the inaccessibility of plus size clothes, it's a matter of what the clerk said. Keep your comments on topic.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 4:59 AM
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@Scatter: ...Don't be fat.

Let me know when that one works ok?

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Scatter
December 18, 2008 7:05 AM
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@Ajh:

It works out just fine if you're disciplined and have some self control.

I'm not saying that it's easy for everybody to stay slim but why is Macy's more at fault for not carrying plus sizes than it is Amanda's fault for not taking care of herself? They're simply carrying the products that their research shows would be more profitable for them.

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Etoiles
December 18, 2008 2:42 PM
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@Scatter: If you're a woman over 5'7\" then chances are you wear plus-sizes even when you're not fat. My \"skinny size\" is a 12/14 -- not available at some Macy's locations or at most places like J Crew, Banana Republic, and so on -- and that's at a perfectly healthy weight and build.

The problem is that many clothing stores only carry clothes for one type of build, and any woman over the age of 21 can tell you, it's extremely frustrating to try to buy anything unless you're a 5'5\" size 6 with exactly the right breast, hip, and waist ratios.

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varro
December 18, 2008 3:54 AM
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@Scatter: Ah...first \"Blame the OP\" post.

\"They bought their tickets - I say let them crash!\"

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 1:52 AM
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This happened to me at the main Macy's in NYC 34th St. They didn't tell me that I could get a bigger dress, but a VERY rude lady told me that they didn't have any dresses over a sample size. The woman looked me up and down and scoffed. I asked if I could at least just SEE the dress model I was looking for (as I have only seen it online), and she said there would be no way she could find the dress. Really? I have the make and model. She said they probably didn't have it, despite the fact that the dress is one of the most popular made. They had it. it was right up in front and I found it right away. Thanks for nothing Macy's! I was totally treated as a second class customer.

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niemassacre
December 18, 2008 1:56 AM
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Certainly somewhat tactless and rude, but I don't see the deep insult here - she gave a reply based on demographics and then noted that Amanda did not fit that generalization, but that that was the reason the store didn't carry formal wear in plus sizes. Again, not a good thing for the salesperson to be saying, but I don't think it was that horrible really.

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slopirate
December 18, 2008 2:13 AM
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Statistics aren't racist or \"classist\". They're fact. Some find that hard to handle. Macy's doesn't carry a large variety of plus size clothing in that store because it doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

Amanda evidently found a very friendly employee who didn't sugar-coat the reasoning behind that business decision. As someone said earlier, this is why they have Marketing people: to soothe those who are offended by the truth.

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tooki
December 18, 2008 2:21 AM
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In retail, I learned the hard way that giving too much information can just make people angry. Pam's response, while actually rather helpful and informative, just came off the wrong way, into the ears of someone who is borderline oversensitive. Would I write to Macy's? I dunno. Pam should learn to give more concise answers, along the lines of those provided earlier in the comments. And it would behoove Macy's to make a gesture of apology to Amanda. And Amanda should realize that most likely, if Pam found out that she'd insulted her by accident, Pam would likely feel bad about it.

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joellevand
December 18, 2008 2:40 AM
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@tooki: 2nd this.

This story reminds me of two things. First, from House when the African American patient refused to use the \"Black\" drugs Dr. Foreman prescribed for him because Foreman explained that the drugs work better for African Americans. The patient complained that all drugs should work the same on all races because we're all human and all bleed red blood. He called Dr. Foreman racist. However, he was happy to take the same drugs when prescribed by Dr. House and told that they were the drugs given to Republicans.

Similarly, when I worked in food store in a predominantly Jewish area when I was in high school, we didn't carry certain products that contained gelatin, as these (being non-kosher) did not sell well. Once, a woman asked me where a certain type of gum was, and I explained that as it was non-kosher, we did not carry it due to the area's large Jewish population. It just didn't make good business sense to do so.

Oh yes, she complained to management about me.

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furseekr
December 18, 2008 2:34 AM
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I'm sorry that Pam's delivery and word choice upset you, and agree that she could have simply said \"try our other store, they have a much larger plus size department.

But did this seriously drive you to tears? Pam gave you way too much information, but are you so naive about retail that you don't realize what she said is true? Demographics are all about averages. You are an upscale professional woman who happens to be plus size, but your local Macy's has determined that they don't make enough money catering to that demographic. It's not about you, or Macy's opinion of you, or their thoughts about plus size women or poor women or women of color. Macy's has determined that if they stock the type of product you were interested in at that store, they won't sell enough to make it worth it to them.

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Keter
December 18, 2008 2:39 AM
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Hey Amanda, go to the Lakeline Mall Macy's. Plenty of 16s and a lot less attitude. Barton Creek is snob central, and Highland Mall is a crime zone.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 2:40 AM
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I am not surprised by this story at all. As a \"plus-sized\" woman who has long shopped at Macy's, I went there looking for a winter coat. First, I went to the women's department. No coats to be found there, so I asked a salesperson and was told to go downstairs to the coat department. There I went, and looked through every rack but couldn't find anything larger than a 16. (In fact, there was very little above a size 12.) When I found a salesperson and told her I what I was looking for, she yelled to another employee \"Do we have any BIG sized coats\". They did not, she was told. It was a small thing, but I walked out of the store morbidly embarassed.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 2:44 AM
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I'm actually more blown away by the blunt honesty of the sales associate. Stores cater to their primary demographic, I live in south east DC and the DVD section of Wal Mart is vastly different here then it is where I grew up in suburban Sacramento.

I guess my main question is when does this become race, economic, size discrimintation? Is it sinply when a store fails to carry items catering to those demographics or does it begint when someone acknowledges that the store does this. If it is the former then you are going to have to complain about a lot more stores then Macy's.

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bobosgirl
December 18, 2008 2:45 AM
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I wear a size 14 or 16, and always have good luck at Fashion Bug. I know they have great specials online,too. I also shop at Kohls, and they have a decent size \"plus\" department. i bought a beautiful velvet outfit there 2 weeks ago to wear to Chrsitams parties, and it cost me less than $40. Someone needs to give Pam a lesson in tact, and maybe demote her to the stockroom until she learns what tact and respect are.

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GeorgetteAgamedes
December 18, 2008 3:03 AM
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It's all part of the retail strategy to \"cover the asses of the masses\". But it could have been explained better.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 3:03 AM
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maybe San Francisco has more fatties (i am one of them), but the downtown Macy's plus size area is huge, and there are plus size dresses on the \"social dress\" floor. Your experience is interesting, cause I have found the more affluent area department stores tend to have better plus size selection

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 3:05 AM
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I've heard that Saks Fifth Avenue is eliminating their Salon Z sections (large women's clothes) at all but two stores, NY and Beverly Hills.

Gee, I guess sales declined as a result of a horribly boring selection of clothes. Almost everything was black and gray business wear. Rather than close these sections, they should have fired the buyers. But, no.

A large, clueless company strikes again.

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Xay
December 18, 2008 3:06 AM
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I've read through this post three times and I am still trying to find out why the OP got upset to the point of tears. Were you insulted that you weren't considered the demographic for the upscale white women store and were sent to the \"low class\" women of color store? Is the insult that you were being grouped with women of color instead of the professional white women that you view as your peers?

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Mafalda para Presidente
December 18, 2008 5:51 AM
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@xay: Good point. I think this is worthy of consideration. Why is it so upsetting to be called poor and black unless you have a low opinion of the poor and the people of color?

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Corporate_guy
December 18, 2008 3:13 AM
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A black woman racist against black women? Have fun getting something done about that. And if that store didn't cater to plus sizes, but another one did. What's the issue. The clerk explained everything and being black she clearly didn't see anything racist in it. Either go to the other store or shop somewhere else. This is clearly not a personal insult.

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I want my Pepsi Throwback back!
December 18, 2008 3:21 AM
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This makes me wonder if Pam did this canned, offensive comment on purpose... almost as if she is trying to get people riled up over the lack of plus-sized clothing, even if that means making herself look bad. Maybe I'm thinking too far out of the box.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 3:29 AM
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Quit taking it so seriously, this is just business, not prejudice. I went to buy clothes for my brother for Christmas; he is 6'7\" and wears a 34W36L. This size is almost impossible to find even in the big&tall dept of any store. But a 46w 32L was easy to find. Companies are going to make stocking decisions based on regional trends, deal with it.

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goodcow
December 18, 2008 3:32 AM
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Lose weight.

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varro
December 18, 2008 3:55 AM
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@goodcow: Don't you mean \"Ls wght.\" ?

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graceless
December 18, 2008 3:46 AM
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That's a slap in the face of Hillary Rodham Clinton!

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Coyote
December 18, 2008 3:46 AM
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If you take every opportunity to make a big deal about how \"the world is against you\" with regards whatever aspect (race, weight, gender, religion) you get touchy about, don't be surprised when everyone you deal with gets a little frustrated or defensive.

Oh, and one thing written words do not convey is tone of voice and body language. Something tells me there was more than a little of both involved here on the part of the customer.

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Suulia
December 18, 2008 3:48 AM
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Stores stock what people buy. News at 11? At least I'm not the only one that thinks this story is greatly exaggerated.

My first job was in retail women's clothes. Each store stocked the clothes that sold fastest in the area. What that means is that at one store (in the suburbs where I worked) stocked a lot of t-shirts and jeans in smaller sizes, while the other store (downtown) stocked suits and dressier clothes in larger sizes. This is common practice and is not limited to Macy's.

I'd never shop at the downtown store if I wanted to buy clothes I normally wear, because they don't stock my style there. I'm a size 5 t-shirt and jeans kind of gal. But if I wanted to buy a dress, I'd go downtown.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 9:15 PM
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@Suulia: But what always kills me is that I go into stores like effing Macy's (Chicago girl here. I miss Field's horribly) and the plus size section is picked clean while the juniors and whatnot sections are overflowing with crap. Same thing in other places like the Gap, Ann Taylor and Banana Republic. XS, S, and Medium sized clothing as far as the eye can see. It seems like they overbuy on the small stuff and then have to deep discount it to get rid of it later. Never made sense to me.

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femalemathmajor
December 18, 2008 3:57 AM
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Hmmm. I get this a lot, except the other way around: \"sorry, that is the smallest size we carry, you could try the children's department\"

I thought most stores were catering to larger sizes in the US now as I used to be a size 6 and am now a 0 or non-existent in many stores without having lost any weight. Gap, Old Navy and Target for instance no longer carry my size of clothing.

I think I would actually prefer being told it was a demographics/demand issue and advising me on a different store that might have my size. That said, she definitely should have left out the statements about class and race.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 5:07 AM
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@femalemathmajor: Yeah I was helping a friend find clothes and we were going nuts trying to find jeans for her cause she's so skinny. We found a pair that could be tailored to fit nice, and they ended up being her favorites. Oh..uhmm ..

[www.makeyourownjeans.com]

for you?

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Helen Skor
December 18, 2008 3:58 AM
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I am a plus-size gal myself, and it has been my experience that Macy's carries one of the largest selections of women's clothing around. What Pam said was likely true, however tactless, but if there is little demand for a certain line of clothing, why should they feel obligated to supply it?


The most constructive way for Amanda to handle the situation would be to contact the store manager and ask him or her to consider expanding the women's section to include some formal wear. The more requests that are received, the more likely Macy's will be to do it.

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azgirl
December 18, 2008 4:06 AM
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It is annoying that I can afford to buy whatever I want in clothing, but when I wore a size 18-- a very common size by the way, I could not buy a career suit, or professional clothing except in limited stores.. come on- most American women are over size 14-- this is fact..


I no longer wear that size, but I still feel for the girls trying to buy nice clothes.. you cant even get a decent work out outfit.. certainly there is a market for that...


Oh yeah- and before you hate--consider the shoe size debacle-- I have been wearing a size 11 since I was a teenager.. There are no pills or surgeries to help that. Buying work shoes is hell.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 3:47 PM
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@azgirl:
Shoes! I wear a 10.5 (try finding THAT in a retail store) or 11, depending on the fit. Macy's sizes stop at 10. Sometimes they have great shoe sales, and I have to walk right by their shoe department because there is not one thing there for me.

Online shoe merchants do a booming business in larger shoe sizes -- surprise, surprise. I've had great luck with Zappo's, Shoemall, Shoes.com, and the like (especially the ones with free shipping). Other good online sources: Sierra Trading Post, Nordstrom.

If places don't want my money, that's their problem. (But I do wish there were more actual stores where I could TRY ON shoes before buying them!)

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femalemathmajor
December 18, 2008 4:28 AM
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@azgirl: I hate shopping for shoes too because many stores start at size 6, which is too big for me. Fortunately, it is easier to buy shoes online than other clothing items.

I wonder if the spread of sizes in the population is becoming larger now or if stores are just becoming more restrictive. Perhaps due to online sales stores are losing business and cutting off the upper and lower end of sizes.
I would think/hope this would lead to more specialized stores though, not less.

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azgirl
December 18, 2008 4:09 AM
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Oh yeah- as for demographics-- the best plus size Macys and Dillards in the Phoenix area is actually Scottsdale, or Snottsdale as I like to call it.. so race doesn't quite line up on that one.. I don't think I saw a single woman of color in that whole store last time I was there...women with money, yes. Absolutely.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 4:10 AM
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I don't have any suggestions for formalwear, but for perfectly-fitting pants (not just jeans!) I can recommend makeyourownjeans.com -- a little work with a tape measure and you get custom-made pants, with excellent construction, a wonderful turnaround time, and very reasonably priced. If you don't fit what the fashion industry says human proportions should be, they can be a godsend.

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Dan Fishkin
December 18, 2008 4:27 AM
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while I agree that pam should not have made a statement saying that people her size simple dont have a need for that sort of clothing, or saying that women of color were generally larger; part of keeping up a successful business is through extensive market research. either there are very, VERY few plus sized women who shop for that sort of clothing at that store, or they need to update their statistics.

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tbax929
December 18, 2008 4:30 AM
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I'm an average-sized black female professional, so I don't have any problems finding business clothing in my size. However, the sales clerk's comments wouldn't have bothered me in the least. In fact, the clerk may have given her the additional information because she assumed that a sister would understand what she was saying.


I think the OP is way too sensitive.

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 4:32 AM
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also it's racist to assume she was african-american...

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katylostherart
December 18, 2008 4:34 AM
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pam was as kind as possible. how do you nicely tell someone they're too fat to shop there? exactly how pam did. this girl just would've gotten offended anyway. she got told bad news as politely as possible. and even walmart changes stock based on local demographics, why wouldn't macy's?

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Corporate-Shill
December 18, 2008 4:42 AM
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The facts were correct. The presentation was slightly in poor taste. IF Pam had been a WHITE woman, all Hades would have broken out, but Pam is a woman of color and she was comfortable with the words she spoke. No foul, no harm, time to move on.

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clickable
December 18, 2008 5:03 AM
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What a stupid, tactless employee. There was no need whatsoever to spell out the entire marketing and distribution strategy, whether or not it was correct. A whole lot of unnecessary, irrelevant information, and more than anything else it was unnecessarily hurtful to the customer. Not even going to touch on the egregious racism.


Amanda, if I'm not mistaken, Saks has a very well-stocked department for larger sizes. I think the flagship store in New York has an entire floor devoted to larger sizes. So there are certainly quality designers out there catering to customers who need larger than size 12.


I used to be a plus size and I never looked at regular size retailers like Ann Taylor or Talbot's, but it turns out that many retailers I thought of as regular-size stores actually make the same lines in regular and plus sizes, and now I'm sorry I didn't know that when I was desperate for better garments in larger sizes. Check Talbot's, Eileen Fisher, Coldwater Creek, JJill, Ann Taylor, Nordstrom, etc. You can even check online first to save time. I'll bet you find more stores than you thought have quite a decent choice in larger sizes.


Best of luck, and put that idiot saleswoman out of mind.

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Ajh
December 18, 2008 5:05 AM
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Size 16 or 18 dresses...that don't make you look like the lady out there on the street corner.....

Catherines.

Macy's is definitely low on my list for clothing. I long since dismissed them as completely out of touch with the ACTUAL demographics of the area, instead carrying only for the clientele they prefer, which seemed like such a wasteful money losing business practice to me.

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Mafalda para Presidente
December 18, 2008 5:19 AM
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I don't know...that conversation just sounds made-up.

I don't doubt there was a shortage of plus-sized clothes at Macy's (there seems to be a shortage of them almost everywhere...I used to work retail and the plus-sized sections were always smaller than the rest). But something about the Q&A going on there just sounds fake, as if it had been, um, \"embellished\" to make it sound more outraging.

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Nelly Cung
December 18, 2008 5:22 AM
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In all honesty, I don't really see anything wrong with the remark, she said it blatantly, yes, but there really isn't any other way to explain it.
I used to be a buyer for a large men's clothing store chain and we completely catered to the demographics in the area. Every week I poured through sales data of over 3000 stores and made analysis of where certain new products should go and how many. For instance, I've sent plenty of XXXL shirts to Alabama, Texas, Mississippi, but have never sent a single one to Vermont or Maine.
It's truly a business decision and floorspace and inventory are very valuable. Why would I have a department that only a very few customers would actually use.
To be honest, the best thing that Amanda could do is just let the local management know of her interest. The more people that inquire about it, then they will know about the growing demand.

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synimatik
December 18, 2008 5:27 AM
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I'm not buying Pam's story at all. It's way too concise, for one. Not to mention it's completely contrived. This sounds like a story crafted to suit ones purposes for the retrieval of sympathy.

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loueloui
December 18, 2008 5:52 AM
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I used to work at Macy's in the Visual department -putting up signs and that kind of stuff. I was still new to the store, and an average looking lady stopped me, and asked me where she could find some more swimwear. I told her there was another department on the 3rd floor called Macy Woman. She said, 'Isn't that for larger sizes?' and until that exact moment I had never really realized why there was a seperate section.


I did however immediately realize that I had essentially called this lady a heifer, and that she should be shopping in the fat lady department. The look on her face was priceless, as it was probably on mine as well. Knowing that I could never recover from this, I stammered out a reply and ducked into the back. To this day I can still see her face.

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XianZhuXuande
December 18, 2008 6:01 AM
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If those responses actually do reflect the conversation-and they seem a little extravagant, especially with Pam's questions being outlandish and accusatory and the employee's responses diving right in as if a rabbit to a baited trap-my first impression is that the employee needs to learn tact and that Pam needs to put a lot less work into being offended.

I'm not sure there is a correct answer the employee could have given here.

The best answer would have been, \"Ma'am, we do not carry clothing of that sort in those sizes, but if you go to our other location here, they will be able to help you out. Why? It is based on demographics. I'm sorry about the inconvenience.\"

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 6:08 AM
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Pam was correct in explaining the demographic differences between stores. Each store is bought differently depending on it's local market. Nothing new there.Net/Net - you did the right thing. You left and took your business elsewhere. That says a lot more then talking to the store manager and getting lame assed canned speak from another level.

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Matthew Wilson
December 18, 2008 6:44 AM
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Which is more important to the OP.

The perceived slights from the floor clerk or the merchandising of that particular branch?

Just reading through the comments about one in four is a comment saying \"yes, This store or that in X location versus Y location carries different stock\".

And people are confusing the population demographic with that stores shopping demographic.

If many people have been pointed to the Y store to buy Plus Sized or Sports Gear or Whatever, then that store is going to carry more. They've created their own market keeping two stores alive by offering focused product lines.

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Stephanie Da Roza
December 18, 2008 6:55 AM
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I think that the woman was telling the truth about why they don't stock plus sized items. I wouldn't be too harsh on pam when you sent the email as, as you've mentioned, I think she was told to say that. It's just a fact that as as statistic, proportionally more of the people who are plus-sized tend to be poorer, partially because healthy foods and eating out at healthier restaurants are relatively expensive compared to packaged and fried foods in supermarkets and at fast food outlets. Also, women \"of color\", I'm assuming you mean African American women, tend to be larger and that too is also just a genetic fact. A store has to stock clothes that will be bought, especially in these economic times. But if Macy's is selling plus sized clothing anyways, I don't see why they can't stock some of them at that store because it's very easy to transfer goods from one store to another if they are not purchased.


It's not like Macy's has created another store under a different name for \"poorer, fatter, colored people\" to take their money but disguise the fact that they cater to people other than rich white skinny people. It's still Macy's, just in a different area. Supermarkets also cater to the demographic of each store.

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Stephanie Da Roza
December 18, 2008 6:58 AM
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@Stephanie Da Roza:


Although I really don't agree with what she said here:


\"Pam: Yes ma'am. The demographics tell us that plus sized women just don't need social wear.


Me: So what you are saying then is that larger women don't have good jobs and don't go to parties.


Pam: That's correct, ma'am. Of course, for those few exceptions like yourself there is one other option.\"


That's just stupid

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MrsConclusion
December 18, 2008 6:58 AM
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Just look at it this way, Macys lost a customer. Enough said.

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maravi
December 18, 2008 7:07 AM
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I guess I can see that the CSR wasn't super smooth in her response, but she was honest and I don't by that she was stereotyping or calling the customer fat/poor.

Sure, perhaps the \"black women tend to be bigger comment\" wasn't necessary (and I can't say I know for sure whether it's true or not,) I otherwise have little to no problem with the conversation.

That said, I won't say anymore as I am one who has very little sympathy for those who are \"plus size,\" since in most cases it's of their own wrong-doing.

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Oxzimmaron
December 18, 2008 9:05 PM
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@mrv: Ww, jdgmntl mch? Mst b grt t nvr b glty f \"wrng-dng.\" Bt y hv lts f frnds!

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kabuk1
December 18, 2008 8:54 AM
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@maravi:

I agree. I don't think they owe her an apology for directing her to the fat girl clothes when she is, in fact, FAT. That would be like me asking a salon employee about \"brilliant blonde\" hair care products & then getting offended when she directs me to the \"brilliant brunette\" stuff cause my hair is black.

I do think the associate's reply was a little TMI, she could've just directed her to the other store without going on the long winded spiel, but jeez girl, get over yourself. You're fat, you KNOW it, so quit getting offended when people won't pretend you're a size 2. If you're THAT damn sensitive, take steps to remedy like problem so people won't hurt your feelings anymore. Like putting down the damn fork.

I'm so sick of people getting offended when someone calls attention to the fact that they're not perfect. It is a fact that women of color tend to be fatter than white women. It's not RACISM, it's the truth. It's a by product of genetics & upbringing.

Though if you go to wal-mart, everyone is EQUALLY fat.

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dkissam
December 18, 2008 9:17 AM
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The problem is that she attached race and socioeconomic class to size. That is racist, classist, and sizist. Before someone claims it's just a fact that big women tend to be black and/or poor, it's not as if it's a *biological* fact that they *must* be poor. It's because big women are discriminated against in the workplace. In fact, they have trouble getting hired at all, and don't receive the same attention from teachers that thin people receive, and since they're female and more likely to just sit there and not cause trouble like the boys do, so they're not well served by the educational system.

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femalemathmajor
December 18, 2008 9:42 AM
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@dkissam: There's a lot at play in that I guess, but I always thought it was the other way around (chicken or the egg?)... that being poor means more stress and less healthy food, both of which cause weight gain.

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audemars
December 18, 2008 9:36 AM
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LMAO! This is in Austin! Highland Mall has always been \"the black mall\" since I was a little kid. This is hilarious.

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spidra
December 18, 2008 9:51 AM
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I wear plus sizes, even when I'm at my ideal weight (which I'm emphatically not right now, sadly). Even though the buzzwords Pam used (if transcribed correctly) are whacked, it doesn't upset me all that much. I guess I'm just so used to it all now.

On the one hand, I really don't expect businesses to stock stuff they have trouble selling. It's absolutely true that stores in the same chain will have different stock depending on what sells locally. So the Safeway supermarket in a yuppie neighborhood has organic and hippie stuff like Annie's brand while the Safeway a mile away in a more mixed neighborhood has a better selection of ethnic cuisine ingredients.

On the other hand, it irks me that while obesity becomes a bigger and bigger problem because of American lifestyles (sedentarism, high glycemic eating), the fashion industry completely ignores the trend that American women are bigger than their grandmothers generally were. While there are more fashionable clothing choices for big women than there were 20 years ago (Lane Bryant, Junonia, etc.), it's still got a long ways to go. That's why I end up sewing my own formalwear for the most part.

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SammyD1st
December 18, 2008 11:10 AM
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I support Pam 100%. Whiny customers don't like the truth.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 3:50 PM
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@SammyD1st:
FAIL. Mods???? Way too much of this slamming going on here.

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jeweltones
December 18, 2008 11:59 AM
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My mom's first job was at the NYC Macy's back in the day. It was the same then. A girl came in looking for a prom dress and everybody was ignoring her, until one of the \"ladies\" told the girl she was too fat for Macy's dresses. My mom barrelled in, said \"Come with me, honey\" and took her to the wedding department seamstresses, who basically altered a bridesmaid's gown and hand-tailored a dress for the girl. They didn't charge her for the tailoring and the dress was on sale. But the underlying Macy's principle (without the involvement of several nice people on their own initiative) was the same: fat people should shop elsewhere.

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majortom1029
December 18, 2008 12:36 PM
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I found a bigger problem. Shopping in macy's in general. I have always found them over priced and very unconsumer friendly.

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johnfrombrooklyn
December 18, 2008 1:06 PM
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If the Black Macy's doesn't work for you, then you should try the Tranny JC Penney's. They tend to carry larger sizes also.

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PetiteGal
December 18, 2008 1:29 PM
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Would the \"Asian Macy's\" sell a lot of petite size 0s-4s in non-old lady styles?

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Amber Karnes
December 18, 2008 1:33 PM
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Not surprised! It's the same way here, gotta go to the \"black Macy's\" to find formalwear. In my experience, Macy's never has any cute or quality plus sized clothes, you might as well shop at Lane Bryant. Hit up Nordstrom, their customer service is of the highest quality. They always make me feel like they are honored I shop there. The clothes are also better-made.

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battra92
December 18, 2008 1:34 PM
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As a former fatso myself (down ~60lbs FWIW) and since I'm now finally in sizes that are somewhat easy to find I can sympathize with a lack of clothing options.

I do know some of my plus-sized female friends always lament at how they can't shop anywhere but Lane Bryant and Torrid. After my experience of being dragged into the latter by a plump (but adorable) friend of mine that there certainly appears to be everything available for even the more morbidly obese amongst us.

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donovanr
December 18, 2008 2:07 PM
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I am completely on Pam's side here. If you are somewhat bloated there are stores that cater to your needs. If you are on the biggish side of large I imagine that many stores don't have what you want. Being large is a choice for most people. Not catering to large people is a choice that store owners get to make as well.
Also, these days, most stores use a computers to help figure out what sells best in each location. Thus the fat clothes go to where the fat people shop. A Miami Walmart probably stocks fewer snow shovels than a Maine one. I doubt anyone had to actually figure that out. Their computers did.
And back to the issue of size being a choice. If you made the choice to eat so much why should anyone treat you with any respect as to that choice?

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 3:52 PM
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@donovanr:

You were doing OK until this: \"If you made the choice to eat so much why should anyone treat you with any respect as to that choice?\"

Way out of line.

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campredeye
December 18, 2008 2:39 PM
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@donovanr: I hope you develop a thyroid problem, and an issue with your metabolism and see how bad of a \"choice\" you made.

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Eibmoz
December 18, 2008 2:19 PM
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@donovanr: Because human beings should treat other human beings with respect and kindness. Other people's choices are none of your business.

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dragonvpm
December 18, 2008 2:19 PM
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As a guy who's a good bit bigger/taller than average it feels like Amanda's story is a bit... off and it makes me doubt how accurate her story is.

In my experience, when you routinely look for larger sizes, you tend to learn what stores often carry your sizes and which stores don't and you get used to it. Even though my nephew works at Hollister I can't shop there because they just don't carry clothes for people who are as tall or as big as I am (I joke with him that they only seem to cater to small high school kids). Sure it would be awesome if I could walk into any store and find clothing in all their styles that fit me, but the fact is that even without being fat I'm still bigger than average (even finding shoes can be a chore sometimes) and not all stores want to cater to my demographic.

That being said, the conversation, as relayed here, sounds like it's missing something so I'm hesitant to attack Macy's over not stocking certain items at one store and stocking them at another store. The way the conversation started, I'm almost wondering if Amanda didn't take out her clothing frustrations on Pam a little. \"Where is the women's department\" sounds a little antagonistic, combine it with a bitchy attitude/tone of voice and I could see the conversation not going well or Amanda embellishing what was said to get sympathy for big bad Macy's not catering to plus-size women.

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Xay
December 18, 2008 6:32 PM
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@dragonvpm: You must not shop for women's clothing very often. Department stores usually divide clothing into juniors, misses, petites, and women's sections.

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dragonvpm
December 18, 2008 8:36 PM
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@xay: I don't shop for women's clothes often, but I have noticed those signs they put up telling you were those sections are (along with boys, mens, infants, housewares etc...).

I'm pretty sure she could have easily looked up to verify that she was in fact in the women's section. Asking the salesperson where the women's section was (as opposed to asking for clothing in her size) sounds at least somewhat passive aggressive and that makes me wonder if the conversation wasn't more antagonistic than she presented it.

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the Goat
December 18, 2008 2:30 PM
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Nothing outrageous in this story. Ever since I was a teenager I have not been able to go into just any store and buy shoes. Most shoe stores only seem to carry sizes up to men's 12. Well my feet are bigger then that.

If I asked an employee about this they could very well talk about how demographics and the buying patterns of their customers determine what shoes and sizes to carry. And they would be 100% correct. If has nothing to do with them not liking people with big feet.

The same is true with Macy's not stocking a huge selection of plus sizes. It doesn't make financial sense. Nothing more nothing less.

Personally I am revealed when store employees give honest answers instead of corporate whitewash.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 2:31 PM
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My friend works middle management at a Macy's in San Antonio. She recently attended an annual managers training in Dallas, as she is fairly new to the position. One of the trainers went into the whole demographics b.s. with the employess, and my friend threw a fit. Even as a petite caucasian woman, she found it so insulting that Houston has \"Asian\" and \"Black\" stores, my friend's store is classified as \"Hispanic\" and that the merchandising decisions were entirely based on race. This may just be a regional market tactic, but I'm not sure.

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snowburnt
December 18, 2008 2:34 PM
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A) If you are a plus size, you aren't small...you may be tall, but no where did she say fat, just plus size. You know that you wear larger than a size 12, which isn't small, but really isn't fat either. You seem to have an issue making you think that you are fat because the woman said exactly the facts (and some generalizations that don't necessarily apply to you...nor did she apply them to you)

B) If the sales person really did say that as canned as you say she did, it's quite possible she's bitter about it and trying to draw attention to the stereotype to get people to complain. That's my hopeful outlook on it.

C) It really was in poor taste that she said that though, in all honesty. There are several things Macy's should do, they should carry sizes larger than 12 in all their stores...This might not happen due to sales statistics and management decisions...but she could have just said: we have the plus sizes at this mall because that's where we have them.

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Etoiles
December 18, 2008 2:34 PM
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The Macy's flagship store in Herald Square, Manhattan, on the other hand, turned out to be one of the best places I've ever been for plus-size formalwear. You do have to go up a million antique escalators and find the floor its on, but they have a whole floor for size 14-and-up dresses. I was shocked to discover it.

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lamorevincera
December 18, 2008 2:34 PM
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There was NO reason for this saleswoman to say what she said. None. I don't give a rat's ass if it is the truth; saying something that's going to make a customer feel that way is completely, 100% uncalled for.

And I can't imagine any plus-size woman I know going into a Macy's hearing this, and NOT leaving damn near tears.

Good customer service would've been \"I'm so sorry, ma'am, but we don't carry anything like that here. Could I suggest our Highland Mall store? I know they have a better selection.\"

Very good customer service would've been that statement along with this: \"I'll speak to my manager and let her/him know that we need to expand out selections here\" (even if she knew that nothing would come of it).

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 2:36 PM
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I'd hate to be the non-pc one here, but anyone who's walked through more than 2-3 Macy's could already tell this.

There are Macy's that heavily carry brands that are marketed to African Americans and these particular Macy's tend to be in lower income areas.

Macy's in more upper middle class areas tend to sell more designer stuff that's marketed to the \"upscale\" (or wanna -be) demographic.

And while sweeping generalizations are poor form (i highly doubt a black employee was intending to be racist, but sounds to me like she was speaking frankly), African Americans do tend to have higher obesity rates and they tend to be lower income (blame whitey, blame them, i don't care but it's true).

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snowburnt
December 18, 2008 2:38 PM
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@rdm: @Pavonian: She didn't really qualify demographics very well. White trash can be skinny and affluent women of color can be too.

Additionally, she probably meant sales statistics as in: they carried those sizes for a while and they didn't sell well while the highland mills mall carried them and they sold gangbusters. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that they should waste the money stocking products that don't sell, especially if they are still available in another part of town.

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reefer
December 18, 2008 2:39 PM
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I'm sorry, I don't see what the big deal is. Go to the other mall and be done with it. I'm sure it took you longer to blog/bitch about this on the internets than it would be for you to drive to highland and find yourself a dress.

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campredeye
December 18, 2008 2:40 PM
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If the employee was a white woman that said these things, it would be all over the news. Just throwing that out there.

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Mr_Mantastic
December 18, 2008 2:40 PM
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I don't see the problem here. First of all, she is fat. Plus size/larger women= fat. She said it herself. She didn't call you poor or low class, she was just explaining the business process of the store. You have to understand demographics in order to run a profitable establishment. Are you going to open a bail bonds business next to an upscale neighborhood? No, you're going to open it next to city hall, because that's where the people are who need it. Are you going to sell clothes more suited to blacks when your store is in a predominantly white neighborhood? No. Stop being offended, and go shop at the Highland store. Or let's try something else: Lose weight.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 3:58 PM
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@Mr_Mantastic:
Methinks you missed this part of the conversation, which certainly DOES imply \"poor or low class\":

Me: So what you are saying then is that larger women don't have good jobs and don't go to parties.
Pam: That's correct, ma'am.

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RurouniX
December 18, 2008 2:40 PM
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Ok...go ahead and flame me if you like...I don't care.

You're making it sound like this lady was personally attacking you and other fat people. When in reality...she just fed you the line she was taught by her manager or at some training session.

Judging by the names you were throwing out - I can safely guess you're from Austin. I can understand why you wouldn't want to go to Highland Mall...that place was nice one upon a time...a very long time ago.

Anyway...I don't see anything wrong with what Pam said. Especially if she has marketing info and statistical data to back it up. Black people are quick to pull the race card and fat people are even quicker to take offense at the slightest perceived insult - the combination of the two? Game over.

It's my opinion...get over it.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 3:58 PM
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@RurouniX:
You don't see anything wrong with this? ---

Me: So what you are saying then is that larger women don't have good jobs and don't go to parties.
Pam: That's correct, ma'am.

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RurouniX
December 18, 2008 4:06 PM
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@ElizabethD: You people just eat that sort of thing up don't you? Everyone is out to get you and everything is a personal attack against you right?

Other people in this thread have pointed this out already. While this article may have some basis in reality...I'd be willing to put money on the fact that a lot of this \"dialog\" is completely fabricated BS.

Furthermore articles like this add no value in my opinion...it's just \"he said she said\"...it's hearsay at best. I could claim I had a conversation with Jesus H. Christ and he insulted me...but that doesn't make it true if I don't have evidence to back it up.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 5:56 PM
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@RurouniX:
I always laugh when someone trying to sound superior uses the \"You people\" construction. News flash: We are all people.

Right now I'm eating up a homemade Christmas cookie from a colleague. Yum, yum. :-P

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 2:48 PM
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Plus-sized women are second-class citizens in many stores by the mere placement of the women's departments. They're not adjacent to the departments with smaller sizes if the stores have room to put them elsewhere, often on another floor entirely and usually with maternity clothes.

That might not be the message stores intend to send but it is the message received -- and remembered.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 5:57 PM
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@UnnaChupon:
True. Even Target -- hardly haute couture -- puts its (incredibly fugly) plus women's clothing way in the back by the dressing room and right next to the Liz Lange maternity collection -- and thus buffered from \"normal\" clothing sizes.

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xwildebeestx
December 18, 2008 2:54 PM
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I always find these stories humorous. When I go to a store and can't find what I'm there for, I leave and look elsewhere. I don't ask some floor worker for an explanation as to why it's not there.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 3:04 PM
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My friend works middle management at a Macy's in Texas. She recently attended a managers training in Dallas, as she is fairly new to the position. One of the trainers went into the whole demographics b.s. with the managers, and my friend threw a fit. Even as a caucasian woman, she found it so insulting that Houston has \"Asian\" and \"Black\" stores, my friend's store is classified as \"Hispanic\" and that the merchandising decisions were entirely based on race. This may just be a regional market tactic, but I'm not sure.

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Consumerist-Moderator-Roz
December 18, 2008 3:20 PM
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Everyone,

I know this topic inspires debate, and this is fine. However, I would like to issue fair warning to everyone that some types of comments are NOT fine.

- Trolling, e.g. mocking fat people in order to get people to flame you

- Saying \"this story seems made up\". Assume good faith on the part of the poster unless you have evidence otherwise. This is part of our commenting guidelines.

Remember, the topic is not \"fat people\" or \"plus sized clothes\". Keep your comments specific to the article and civil and you will have no problems. :)

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Idomeneo
December 18, 2008 3:31 PM
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It's a business, they can cater to whatever demographic they wish. My wife is a petite thirty-something and often needs to shop in the girls department, that's just the way it goes. Get over it.

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Brunette Bookworm
December 18, 2008 3:33 PM
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Hmm, this letter seems a bit too precise as the conversation so I'm guessing it's not exact but what she remembers. However, it seems funny that this Macy's thinks the demographics wouldn't support more plus size clothes when they have two customer seeking the same thing in just a few minutes. Perhaps they need to examine who their potential customers are again.

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femmeknitzi
December 18, 2008 3:36 PM
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I wonder if more commenters would be offended if Lane Bryant told someone that they don't cater to rich skinny people with no inner worth at all. Because naturally all skinny people are white, self-involved narcissists who have eating disorders and spend all their money on Coach purses and have no real valuable relationships--except for you, of course ma'am. And maybe they should just go find their party dresses at the rich, white Macys across town.

Maybe had it happened this way, others would learn to understand why this might be viewed as rude and poor customer service.

I think the best thing for this consumer to do is to take her business elsewhere. You've got Lane Bryant, Fashion Bug, Avenue, Catos, Catherines and tons of other stores that don't make plus sizes an afterthought and you can shop comfortably, knowing that you'll be respected regardless of your size.

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jennyOH
December 18, 2008 7:37 PM
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@femmeknitzi: Except that Lane Bryant specifically caters to larger sizes (I think size 12 and up), so complaining that they don't cater to skinny people is like complaining that Petite Sophisticate doesn't cater to plus sizes.

Macy's, however, does (or is supposed to) cater to all sizes. They have a plus-size department according to the original poster, but no formal plus-size clothes. The assumption on the part of whoever is in charge of stocking seems to be that plus-size women are poor or just frumpy. It's like if the petite section only had cutesy clothes, because the general assumption was that petite women are small and cute so why would they need sophisticated business clothes.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 4:00 PM
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@femmeknitzi:
But, OMG, most of the products available at all the plus-size sources you mention in your post are -- in comparison to higher end and designer goods available to non-plus women -- CHINTZY CRAP. Trust me, I have tried them all. Most of the stuff is overpriced, too. If I wouldn't buy it at Wal-Mart, why should I pay Lane Bryant or Catherine's top dollar for that cheesy clothing?

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femmeknitzi
December 18, 2008 5:29 PM
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@ElizabethD:

I totally agree that it's crap but I'm not much of a clotheshorse and I hate shopping, so I choose having the positive experience--being able to go in and KNOW that I'll find things that fit and look good--over having the nicer clothes. But, I would love to see stores make a real effort to fit real sizes with quality clothing.

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femalemathmajor
December 18, 2008 8:29 PM
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@femmeknitzi: ahem, what are \"real sizes\" exactly?

If you're referring to doing away with vanity sizing, and sizing perhaps by height/width instead, then I agree. But somehow I think you're just referring to me as not \"real\" or a \"woman\"...

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 6:00 PM
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@femmeknitzi:

\"I would love to see stores make a real effort to fit real sizes with quality clothing.\" -- Now there is something we can agree on!

Thank god for Internet shopping, inconvenient as it may be sometimes.

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Mr-Mr
December 18, 2008 3:45 PM
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I've never understood this whole \"plus size\" and \"curves are beautiful\" silly excuse for admitting you're overweight. I'm overweight, and when I look in the mirror and realize that I'm getting too large for my clothes, I don't say \"I'm a plus size\" and \"curves are beautiful.\" To the contrary, I think what a fat bastard I've allowed myself to become. When we look at women from say Marilyn Monroe days, they were curvy, but not fat. Today we have girls weighing 200-300lbs thinking that \"curves are beautiful.\" I think that's pushing the moniker a bit too far. Just like alcoholics, overweight people need to recognize they have a problem.

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lamorevincera
December 18, 2008 5:08 PM
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@Mr-Mr: Wow. You're VERY judgmental. Have a few issues, do you?

There is nothing at all wrong with a 200, 300 lb. woman finding herself beautiful. At 300 lb., yes, she does most likely have medical problems due to her weight (although that varies) - but it should NOT preclude her still finding things about herself that she thinks is lovely. Loving yourself and still wanting self-improvement works JUST as well as continually putting yourself down, if not better.

Just because you allow yourself to wallow (\"I'm a fat bastard\") does not mean that others should. Keep your own pathetic attitudes about your fat to yourself, and let others be.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 4:01 PM
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@Mr-Mr:
Bashers to the right please.

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sassenach
December 18, 2008 4:16 PM
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Stores stock based on local demographics. The Macy's near me are full of size zeros, since I live in a majority Asian area.

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ceez
December 18, 2008 4:18 PM
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I doubt that Pam, a more than likely underpaid Macy's employee divulged all that information to a customer.


I think more of a \"we have a plus size store at highland mall that you can visit and you'll find all your cocktail dresses there\".


not to mention that how can Amanda remember such conversation to the \"T\"?


i call bologni on this on this story.

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PrincessSparkle
December 18, 2008 4:20 PM
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I've had that exact same problem (unable to find party dress in a size 16) in that exact same store. I am SO GLAD that I never asked for help. I don't think I would have been able to contain the fit of rage that would have ensued. I have family members that work there. I can't wait to share this with them.

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axiomatic
December 18, 2008 4:26 PM
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Good luck with the bottom line Macy's. You screwed the pooch here.

(puns intended)

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mojojornjorn
December 18, 2008 4:27 PM
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Pam's primary mistake was the lack of tact in filtering the sad facts over which she has no control. Pam's not wrong; Pam is just stunningly stupid in the ways of social interaction.

Unless....

Pam is crazy like a fox? Hear me out:

Perhaps Pam hates this corporate decision based upon \"demographics\" as much as we do. So, she recites this blatantly offensive speech every time, day after day, until something like this (it made it to consumerist.com) happens. Pam *knows* this will piss off folks like Amanda. Pam has perhaps stopped just short of \"Here is the contact info for our corporate offices if you'd like to voice your opinion on this matter.\"

Pam might just be a passive aggressive ninja. One of her cleverly hidden smoke bombs has finally gone off.

Just a theory.

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 6:01 PM
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@mojojornjorn:
Umm, obligatory Ockham's Razor admonition here.

Sometimes a tactless employee is just a tactless employee.

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axiomatic
December 18, 2008 7:28 PM
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@ElizabethD: Interesting. I had always heard it spelled Occam's. But a quick check to Wikipedia and both are correct. Learned something new today. ;-)

From Wikipedia:
\"Occam's razor (sometimes spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham.\"

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femmeknitzi
December 18, 2008 5:31 PM
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@mojojornjorn:

Passive aggressive ninja. I think that phrase should be injected into every conversation. In fact, I think I myself might be a passive-aggressive ninja. Haha!

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Oxzimmaron
December 18, 2008 5:18 PM
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@mojojornjorn: Oddly enough, this same scenario occurred to me too!

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watchwhathappens
December 18, 2008 4:29 PM
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Smaller stores and boutiques generally don't have any sizes above an 8, or *sometimes* a 10 (if they're feeling generous to the \"fatties\"). They make it clear that if you're larger than that, you have no right to be fashionable. As a 12 who is very interested in fashion indeed, this is infuriating and insulting. I thought that department stores were a little more enlightened. Guess only certain stores are.

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Lynn Russell
December 18, 2008 4:33 PM
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This is why it's so difficult for us plus-size women to find decent clothing. Most stores subscribe to the ideas that the clerk was stating. I think that Pam should compose a letter stating clearly just what she wrote here and further stating that she will no longer be patronizing Macy's for ANY of her shopping needs. It doesn't sound like much, but if more people let store management/corporate know they are unhappy and are choosing to spend their money elsewhere, someone somewhere will get the point.

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calquist
December 18, 2008 4:56 PM
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Stores don't carry every size. That's why they have plus sized stores the same way they have children stores.

Plus the dialogue in this is way canned. She obviously just took what the salesgirl said and translated it to what she thought she was hearing.

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Mafalda para Presidente
December 19, 2008 3:35 PM
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@calquist: I agree. I don't believe she remembered that specific conversation word by word. I'd love to hear Pam's transcript of the conversation.

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morganlh85
December 18, 2008 4:56 PM
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The CORRECT way to say what she said would have been \"I'm sorry, our location doesn't have a large selection of plus-sizes, but you will find a larger selection at our Highland Mall location.\"

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morganlh85
December 18, 2008 4:58 PM
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Whether she was correct about the demographics or not, a salesperson is supposed to ENCOURAGE people to buy things at their company. Saying essentially \"We find that most fat people like you don't go out to fancy places a lot so we don't bother having plus size fancy dresses\" is NOT the way to encourage people to shop at your store.

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kJeff
December 18, 2008 5:11 PM
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I'm a big guy, and if I go into a store looking for clothes I always look at the top sizes on the rack. If they don't include my size, I leave and go somewhere else.

I could never picture myself asking the clerk \"do you have anything for fatter guys?\".

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itmustbeken
December 18, 2008 5:26 PM
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Am I the only one who reads this as BS?

Too much detail
\"Her responses to us were just too \"canned\", too \"rehearsed\" to be off-the-cuff remarks. \"

Yeah, like someone who wants attention and loves drama wrote them...yeah...just like that.

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goldenmonkey
December 18, 2008 5:28 PM
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I went to a Macy's as a teen. 5'8\", size 10 and was told they didn't carry anything in my size. They're up to size 12's now?

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ScottRose
December 18, 2008 5:38 PM
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I'm 6'4\" and 250lbs. The Macy's near me caters to my size, and above.

Oh god, I may be black and poor! No one told me!

Of course, I'm a man, so maybe it's that successful men like me are large and handsome, and the women are poor. Phew.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 5:43 PM
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There is something seriously wrong with that.. It's kinda like false advertising, you walk into store to buy clothing for yourself (because they do market themselves as a Clothing Department Store. )..Only to find out they will not cater to you. They should have a sign outside...\" This store doesn't stock items for the fat, poor, low class, plus sized women , and \"women of color\" that are fat and poor\" or they should add it as a fine print in their commercials.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 5:43 PM
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There is something seriously wrong with that.. It's kinda like false advertising, you walk into store to buy clothing for yourself (because they do market themselves as a Clothing Department Store. )..Only to find out they will not cater to you. They should have a sign outside...\" This store doesn't stock items for the fat, poor, low class, plus sized women , and \"women of color\" that are fat and poor\" or they should add it as a fine print in their commercials.

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jnrcorp
December 18, 2008 5:46 PM
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The situation was handled very poorly by Pam. What she was supposed to say is that the demographic of that Macy's is smaller/petite women. It has nothing to do with economic status or race. It only has to do with the fact that that Macy's does not make enough money off of sizes > 12 for it to be worthwhile for them to carry those sizes. To say that they don't cater to Amanda the way she did is racist, elitist and just plain incorrect information. Pam needs to be retrained or fired for an inability to properly portray information to customers.

The other option is that Pam was pissed at Macy's for not carrying those sizes and her way of getting upper management to notice is to attempt to piss off the right person.

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applesanity
December 18, 2008 5:53 PM
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Maybe I'm of the minority opinion here, but I'm thinking that this customer should 1) lose some weight and 2) stop using PC terms like \"plus-sized.\" Plus-size, big-boned, heavyset - it's all the same.


Which is the biggest hypocrisy of all. \"Plus-Sized\" proponents are always pushing for the whole \"big is beautiful\" or \"inner beauty\" thing - in other words, while they demand acceptance, they do all they can to avoid admitting and coming to terms with what they truly are: fat.


Put the doughnut down. No more drive-thrus. Quit the 500 calorie Starbucks. Buy the Nintendo Wii Fitness game.


Every negative reply I get will only further prove my point.

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plutonyum
December 18, 2008 10:25 PM
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@applesanity: If people are genuinely saying that they think \"big is beautiful,\" &c, more power to 'em in my book.

What gets me are people who say they have no choice but to be fat, and that the world has to love that about them, and that any complication from their huskiness is an outrageous affront to their rights.

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TruthAndTheory
December 18, 2008 6:44 PM
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@applesanity:
No negative replies here. Obesity is unhealthy, plain and simple. Most people are obese because they eat a lot.

Being big is not an uncontrollable factor like gender or race. And the whole \"big is beautiful\" thing just encourages people not to exercise. No one should be discriminated against for their size, but to tell the world that it's ok to overeat and be unhealthy is dangerous.

If everyone had high cholesterol, and emphyzema, it would not make it ok. We try to reduce those things. And people should try to reduce their size to be healthy too.

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femmeknitzi
December 18, 2008 6:16 PM
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@applesanity:

Your lack of health education is sad. And your fear of dissenting comments is laughable. Not that I think you're capable of learning something new, but just in case:

Try this: [junkfoodscience.blogspot.com]

and this: [junkfoodscience.blogspot.com]

this: [www.reuters.com]

And this: [kateharding.net]

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ElizabethD
December 18, 2008 6:05 PM
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@applesanity:

This is a positive reply, so boo-yahh:

OMG, you mean if I eat less I will LOSE WEIGHT? Holy cow (pun intended), I never thought of that. This is amazing!

Thank you, thank you. You may have changed my life here!

(Disclaimer: My underactive thyroid and my SSRI- and menopause-challenged metabolism would like to disassociate themselves from my response.)

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plutonyum
December 18, 2008 10:23 PM
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@ElizabethD: It sounds like you've been diagnosed with those legitimate health concerns that may hamper your ability to lose weight. That said, there are a ton (heh) of people who claim those health complications -- self-diagnosed, of course -- as an \"easy out\" excuse for having a lack of willpower.

People who go to the gym for a week, see no results, and then quit, claiming medical hardship, get no sympathy from me.

I lost 85 pounds myself through diet and exercise, and it's a lot of hard work. It's far easier to say you \"can't\" when the truth is that you \"won't.\"

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xamarshahx
December 18, 2008 5:59 PM
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this is why managers need to educate their employees on what facts should actually be presented to the customers, not everything is meant for the public.

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guy1138
December 18, 2008 6:19 PM
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Am I the only one who thinks the OP was spoiling for a fight when she asked the clerk for help?


In her own words she said: [I]...so I guess I need to know where the [b][u]women's[/b][/u] department is.[/I]


It's a common refrain among the fat advocacy folks that the plus sizes are [i]women's[/i] sizes, and everything smaller are [i]girls[/i] sizes.

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Xay
December 18, 2008 6:36 PM
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@guy1138: In department stores, the plus size section is called \"women's\". As opposed to juniors, misses, and petites.

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guy1138
December 18, 2008 9:21 PM
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@xay: And now I know. And knowing is half the battle.

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TruthAndTheory
December 18, 2008 6:28 PM
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What are demographic studies good for, if not this?

Most stores will cater to its local clientele. There will always be a few people who don't fit that bill, and they do have to go elsewhere. If this Macy's had an extensive oversized-clothing department, they simply might not sell those clothes. They can't stock 50 styles of large-size suits because 5 people might buy one or two once a year.

The salesperson probably made the statement about the racial demographic, because it was what she believed to be true, but was probably told to be PC about everything. Her answers were 'canned' but appropriate. That statement might have been a bit harsh to hear, but it's not the end of the world. And yes, I am a woman of color.

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Nerdhouse1
December 18, 2008 6:33 PM
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I'm with you Mario, the more questions you ask the more answers you get, if you didn't want the woman to give you the specifics don't ask her. Apparently Macy's sells a whole lot more plus size clothes on the other side of town, can't argue with facts.

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AustinTXProgrammer
December 18, 2008 6:50 PM
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This Macy's is not that big. My wife worked there for a bit when it was still Foley's.

Highland mall does have a higher concentration of minority shoppers, but I also believe it has a larger Macy's. It is still considered an upscale mall and has some higher end specialties than Barton Creek.

The employee was trying to sound sophisticated, but sounded like an ass instead. She could simply have said those items didn't sell fast enough at this location, but we have a larger selection at Highland Mall and everyone would have been happy.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 6:53 PM
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I agree that Pam's response was probably what she had been taught in training. Was she taught to say it in those exact words? Who knows. But it was definitely too well thought out to have been off the top of her head. I can also agree with those reasons. I frequent both Highland and Barton depending on what kind of clothes I want, and more often than not I see higher income customers at Barton. They have higher end labels with pricier merchandise. The fitness trend also seems to be more prominent among this class. I'm not making a remark on weight and income, just calling it as I see it. Also, seeing as Pam classified Amanda as an exception, I don't think she was calling her fat and low class.

The truth of the matter is stores can and WILL carry what they can sell. It's marketing 101. There's no point in carrying a huge line of something when there are not enough customers to buy it. It sucks, but that's how it is.

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paradisefound24
December 18, 2008 7:02 PM
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To be honest, at least it's better than being perpetually lied to \"Oh, we magically seem to have sold out of all plus sizes, let me check with another store for you.\" That way she knows not to go back to that Macys.

I've been fighting this war with Victoria's Secret for years... only they choose not to sell my size everywhere, though its the same size as their stupid supermodels.

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Anonymous
December 18, 2008 7:26 PM
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Oh yeah, another thing, at Marshall Field's the salesgirl would have searched the computer system and called the other area stores to locate and order an out of stock item. Now those Macy's people just tell shoppers to try to find the junk themselves by driving around to other Macy's. Wal-Mart gives better service.

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buckinggrimace
December 18, 2008 7:39 PM
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The Plus Size or \"Women's\" Department at the Macy's in my local mall isn't even inside Macy's - it is a separate store outside the Macy's entrance. How's that for subtle?

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Manraysky
December 18, 2008 8:02 PM
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@buckinggrimace: I don't think it's that big a deal. One of my local Macy's has lingerie as a separate building, and another has Men's in a separate building.

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fatcop
December 18, 2008 7:52 PM
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Oh no she di'nt!

mmm hmmmmmmmm

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aimee415
December 18, 2008 8:23 PM
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I didn't realize that specific malls had clothing based on the demographic of people in the area. There's one by my house, which is fairly large... and they have the biggest petite section and hardly anything for plus size. I'm also in the size 16-18 range and can hardly find ANYTHING at Macy's, so they don't get my money. If they had my size, they'd make more money off me and other plus sized women who want to buy more clothes, but looks like we should just throw our money to another business who are open to plus sizes.

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morganlh85
December 19, 2008 2:04 AM
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@aimee415: They VERY much alter their stock to fit the \"demographic.\" One Macy's I go to has a lot of minority shoppers, thus they have a large \"urban wear\" section compared to other stores I visit. They even play R&B music in that section of the store.

I'm not saying it's bad, but it's very transparent.

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Consumerist-Moderator-Roz
December 18, 2008 8:59 PM
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Folks, again: this is not a pro/con fat people thread. Keep your comments on topic, and inflammatory comments or trolling may result in removal of your posting privileges.

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Christopher Jones
December 18, 2008 9:24 PM
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sd t lv n stn, Txs whr ths tw mlls r nd bsltly thr s HG dffrnc n bth mlls. nd, thr r bsltly mr wht prfssnls nd cllg kds rnnng rnd Brtn Crk nd mr blck nd hspnc kds rnnng rnd th hghlnd mll. ts fct.

\"Dgrphc\" s xctly \"Strtyp\" nd ths ppl r rnnng bsnss. Qt hnstly, dn't thnk PM nsltd nyn. Sh qt fltly dscrbd th rsns fr wht thy stck nd pprntly t mks thm mny. ts nt dscrmntn, thr r tw strs nd ch ctrs t th mjrty f ppl n th srrndng rs.

f y wnd str n rtzy bsnss dstrct nd y stckd t wth FB nd Sn Jhn m gng t n lmb hr nd syng thy wld mk slghtly lss mny thn f thy hd nc prppy sknny wht kd clths r bsnss sts.

f y'r ft, y knw y r. Stp gttng pssd ff tht vry str dsn't stck tnts fr y t wr. Th tm t gt snstv bt yr bdy mg sss ws bfr y pt th 10th chzbrgr n yr mth nd st n th cch nstd f gng swmmng, nt whn smn pntd t th bvs nd rtld thr cmpny plcy n sllng thrgh thr nvntry.

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Squot
December 18, 2008 9:48 PM
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Payless does that, honestly. Their 'urban' stores carry a huge selection of '12's and some 13s, which 'suburban' stores do not.

I don't actually complain, I'm thankful that they told me. :(

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Anonymous
December 19, 2008 12:35 AM
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I don't know why this was so shocking/offensive. And I say this as someone a good 50-60 pounds overweight. All of what the clerk said sounds very reasonable and accurate.

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BytheSea
December 19, 2008 1:10 AM
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Did she tape this, or does she have a photographic memory? Are we really supposed to believe she accurately transcripted this ten minute conversation word for word?

BTW \"petite\" doesn't mean thin, it means short. I wear a petite 18.

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Karleigh Sherer
December 19, 2008 1:10 AM
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Hahah, as soon as I saw Highland Mall, I knew she was at Barton Creek. Now, I'm not condoning this particular associate's words or actions, but she is correct: Barton Creek lies in Westlake Hills, a very upscale area right outside of Downtown Austin, and the women that live there ARE small women because they have access to some of the best plastic surgeons in the country. This is the same mall that when Nordstrom was added, Kirkland's and other low-class stores were replaced because it brought down the level of the other shopping. I know this because I used to work at Brookstone in that mall, and it's even known through our corporate center that Barton Creek is expected to cell more high-end items.

I would also suggest that next time, she go to Lakeline, not Highland, which is seriously a dangerous mall. Or, got to Nordstrom: I'm a size 16-18 myself, and that's where I got my prom dress. Saks Fifth Avenue also has a nice selection of formal and semi-formal wear for women of larger sizes.

The fact is, the world isn't made for people of our size. It's not fair, but that's life.

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ErasmusHalomiosis
December 19, 2008 1:24 AM
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I had a similar, albeit non-insulting, reverse of this story in a NJ Macy's just outside of New York: I asked where I could find \"slim cut\" dress shirts only to be told that the men's department didn't carry them at all in any of the NJ stores. Then I asked where I might find flat-front pants, the kind sans pleats and I was told that a fellow my size (I wear a 31 inch waist) would be better off shopping in a Manhattan Macys because they couldn't move merchandise in the NJ stores that was for slimmer men. Which, I guess, makes sense, but it still doesn't account for the rudeness...

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LadyHeather
December 19, 2008 2:16 AM
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We should trade malls. Masses of plus size here, but do you think I can find maternity clothes anywhere? Oh no. They want me to put a size 16 on my size 6 self just to cover my stomach.

Totally tactless. I always think you are doing the business a service if you contact them about such incidents. They can't change anything if they don't know about it. This woman's superior should be having a chat with her. It would be beneficial to the company.

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Anonymous
December 19, 2008 4:11 AM
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Stores will carry what will sell in that particular store. However it is sad that they connect plus-sized to being poor. In an \"urban\" area in the mall you will find store like walmart, \"cool-n-hip\", or my favorite \" the player club.\" (what a name) It sells clothes that the local people want to buy. In the \"other\" Mall you find the gap and abercrombie-like stores. It is unfortunate how companies plan their business to fit stereotypes but they are trying to make money.

I live in a lower class area ( i'm a starving artist) but grew up in the middle class and wished I had more of \"my\" stores close by. But ann taylor will not build a store just for me to buy a shirt once in a while.

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Anonymous
December 19, 2008 4:51 AM
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I'm a Macy's employee. The best thing you can do is fill out this form:

http://www1.macys.com/service/sanger.jsp?SITE=http://www.fds.com/contact/egc/macysservice.asp

These go directly to the store managers.

Also, I highly doubt that she was trained with the demographics bit. There is hardly ANY sales coaching going on at the store I work at. THey'll coach you to open up Macy's credit accounts, sure, but not actually selling merchandise.

Oh, and have you noticed that employees use the word \"outstanding\" a lot? We're coached to say it. They think that by (over)using the word, you'll select \"outstanding\" on the electronic form above.

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Anonymous
December 19, 2008 10:27 AM
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I'm tall, and wear 17EE shoes. I can't count how many stores have told me that they don't have my sizes. I much prefer honesty; knowing whether they are out-of-stock, all at another store, or simply not carried by the company saves me time and effort.

I walked into a Nike store, and was told that their store didn't carry shoes in my size, because they couldn't sell them. Some stores have a minimal selection, but they are few and far between. They recommended going to the Nike factory outlet - when the shoes don't sell, they end up there.

Let's face it - the factory outlet is where \"poorer\" people shop - the prices are better. It also happens to be where I can find shoes. I do very well career-wise, and I'm not particularly offended by shopping at affordable stores. I paid $9.99 and $7.99 for two pairs of shoes, oh no!

And yes, there were more black people at the outlet store than the expensive strip mall. The outlet store was located in a mall in a significantly less affluent area, which had good bus transportation.

There is a statistical correlation (in my geographic location) between shopping at the Nike factory outlet, and being poor. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that it's hard to sell shoes for $90 a pair to people who won't spend that much.

There is also a correlation (in this area) between skin color and income. You can chalk this up to education, opportunities, whatever - that still doesn't change the fact that Nike is trying to make money, and is charging more to people willing to pay more.

Suck it up, get over yourself. You chose to be fat; I didn't choose to be tall. There are stores that specialize in your demographic (fat), just like there are stores that specialize in mine (tall). Every store can't afford to carry every item, and you (like I) are way outside the norm.

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TheGuinnessTooth
December 19, 2008 1:55 PM
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I don't exactly see the problem. Amanda admits she is fat and she is at a store that doesn't carry clothing in her size, deal with it. Poor people are fatter than middle class and upper class people, its just a fact of life. She should either deal with it, or get in shape.

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kchenx
December 19, 2008 3:33 PM
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I've never worked retail or in any public relations capacity, but I would think a better way of telling the girl to try a Macy's at a different location would be...
\"I'm sorry, we don't order too many plus sized dresses at this location due to lack of demand for it. If you don't see it on the rack then we must be out of that size. However, I can call another location for you to see if they have more dresses in your size if you'd like.\"
Anything condescending or offensive in that?

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QadiraLimpet
December 19, 2008 3:53 PM
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I went looking for plus size dresses in our local Macy's in central Jersey and basically was told the same thing.They had a limited number of tops and pants, and no dresses formal or casual. I was told Macy's has stopped carrying plus size dresses.

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Lee J. Jones
December 19, 2008 5:50 PM
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I think the consumer is overreacting here. Pam did not call her \"fat, poor, and low class.\" My wife is a petite and we have to go to areas with large Asian populations to buy her clothing and shoes.

You can't blame Macy's for catering to their market. I wouldn't expect the Macy's in China Town to carry dresses for six-foot-tall women. Just go to where the dresses are and buy them there.

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GOLD5
December 19, 2008 10:09 PM
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Wow I was told at a restaurant that I couldn't smoke there because it's unhealthy and against the rules. Man, how do I complain? I should be able to smoke wherever I want. I went to a comic book store and they didn't have any Transformers. I said \"why\"?, and they told me they weren't popular because everyone really likes the X-Files, how do I complain? Sorry but size 18 is really really big, anybody that size has a lot more problems to worry about with their health than whether or not Macy's carries ridiculously large items. Do we need them to stock forklifts to carry us out of our apartments one day as well? The clerk told the truth and if that was hurtful then oh well, I see no shortage of obese people scowling at smokers.

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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot
December 20, 2008 2:38 AM
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Some people simply are tactless regardless where you go and what you shop for. Case in point, I was once shopping for a bridal shower gift for a friend of mine at Victoria's Secret and the sales clerk came up to me and informed me very bluntly that they didn't carry my size and to try Lane Bryant. I hadn't even spoken to her yet, or told her what I was looking for, she just made a snap judgment and it ended up making her look like a total fool.

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Anonymous
December 20, 2008 4:47 AM
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I have to say, Amanda, I think you are overreacting. Macy's doesn't \"decide\" that rich people are thin and poor people are fat, they just cater to the buying habits of their customers. A retail store only has so much space to carry product, so of course they have to make \"generalizations\" about the type of merchandise people will purchase in order to make money. It sounds like this Pam character is just a brainwashed corporate tool with no tact. You shouldn't take that as a personal slight. Just drive your ass on over to the Highland Mall Macy's!

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baristabrawl
December 20, 2008 5:16 AM
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I don't know how to say this, but rudeness doesn't know skin color. I'm not sure how to put it so I don't end up disemvoweled...but seriously? Bad service is bad service.

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Mike Street
December 20, 2008 6:25 AM
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I feel sorry for Pam..but if she is a real big girl then this won't be the first time she's heard this. Fact of the matter is that if you are not of average size then you will always have a hard time or limited selection in the store. I wear a size 15 shoe and I know that 90% of the stores will not have that size. It's just how it is...I'm not going to go cry and bitch cause I went to a store and was told they don't cater to my size. I know they don't. It's supply and demand. Stores have a ton of data on their customers and they will not stock what they can't sell.

Pam should have know to go to Layne Bryant or another store that caters to big girls and she would have found something cute with no problems. Macy's is cute but it's EXTREMELY over priced. I hate shopping there cause you can get much better stuff online or at other places.

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Adrienne Willis
December 20, 2008 4:34 PM
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As a big girl myself the OP should get over it. Seriously! I know to shop in certain stores because they will have my sizes. She got more than a justified answer as to why that MACY's didnt have dresses in her size. Dont like it? Then lose weight, shop at stores that cater to larger sized woman that are still fashionable or order online.

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Wendy Sloan
December 20, 2008 4:56 PM
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macy's charge card: leverage. especially if it's a BLACK one. please complain about this horrendous experience. Also, it's absolutely not true that they don't carry plus sizes. the department is called Macy Woman, not to be confused with the Misses department.

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Anonymous
December 20, 2008 9:25 PM
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Funny stuff! Having worked in retail for several years, I highly doubt anything was coached in the response. You'd be amazed how truly stupid some highly articulate people are!

It's entirely possible that they carry different merchandise at different locations, based on what sells best, but it's unlikely it's for the reasons you were given.

Since you had a bad experience, you need to let someone know so that this doesn't continue. A letter is best, but when you have poor service, asking for a manager immediately is the best remedy.

On a side note, I usually avoid Macy's. I find the service and selection is better at Nordstrom and Bloomingdales all around.

Cheers!

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Anonymous
December 21, 2008 4:01 AM
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Macy's is very inconsistent with their plus-size depts. I visit many in several states, in affluent and non-affluent areas, and I just can't figure out what makes a store have a nice one, and what doesn't. Sometimes, (often) the plus-size depts are in a corner on the highest floor, next to luggage or something stupdi like that, and the dept is a mess. I was in a Macy's in Sept in MA somewhere outside Boston, and all the clothes were hung on too-small hangers, and the entire dept was a mess. I couldn't find a soul to help me, and the dressing rooms were a disaster. It was a disgrace. In November, I was at a Macy's in Charlotte..Northlake Mall I think? I visit a friend annually, and I insist that she take me there - they have everything. The Macy's 3 miles down the road from me sucks, but the one 20 miles south and 15 miles north are OK. Inconsistency is the key for Macy's!!

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metalmarious
December 21, 2008 9:39 AM
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Not to offend any one but, it is a fact that obesity runs more in lower SocioEconomic class[and less in the upper SocioEconomic Class].(and there are more blacks in the lower SE class) it really is a demographic thing(but shouldn't be). 'Women of Color' do tend to be larger [!!I am not trying to offend anyone!]

I don't know Macy's at all but maybe they didn't see the obese business women to be enough in number to sell larger dresses.

This is what you get when you want to maximize your profit(instead of satisfying your customers, shame on Macy's), but in all fairness I don't see how else Pam could have said this in a formal manner (she is just trying to redirect the customer to black macy's)

I don't think Pam was trying to offend Amanda with the 'women of color' statement because Pam her self is a tall African-American but she could have just said 'the highland store has a bigger variety in size'

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kabuk1
December 21, 2008 8:03 PM
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@metalmarious:

This is absolutely true, and I will tell you why. Poorer people are fatter because cheap food, McDonalds, low-end grocery store fare, is VERY high in fat. Someone trying to live on $8 an hour is not gonna spend their money on healthy stuff that costs more. They're gonna buy the $5 bag of 9-fat-gram-per-piece chicken nuggets vs. the $8 package of skinless tenders.

I speak from personal experience. Last summer I lost my job, got kicked out of my house, and was basically HOMELESS for several weeks. All I could afford was dollar menu until I was able to qualify for emergency food stamps. I would have gone to the grocery store & bought something healthier with my dollar, but I had nowhere to cook it. I guess I couldv'e stuck a healthy choice frozen dinner under my hood & drove around for a while to thaw it, but I don't particularly like the taste of exhaust fumes. In ONE MONTH of eating McChickens, McNuggets, and double cheeseburgers, I gained *20 pounds*. Since getting my food stamps & getting back on my feet, I have switched to much healthier foods because I am no linger limited to the cheapest things available.

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Joanne Michele Stocker
December 21, 2008 5:51 PM
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[freshayer.com]


This is a small place local to me (Philadelphia area) but she offers beautiful clothing.

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angelgrlj
December 21, 2008 10:00 PM
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Pam may be tactless, but demographics are what they are. That's why companies track retail sales and analyze them... to understand the consumer per geographical location and to cater to the majority population.


Instead of Amanda getting upset the way she did and essentially instigating the situation that transpired, she should have left when she realized the store did not carry what she was looking for. I am a size 2 and sometimes stores do not carry my size in favor of larger sizes for the population in the area. I deal with it and go elsewhere. And I certainly do not blog about it in hopes of inciting a riot among my fellow petite women.

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pollyannacowgirl
December 22, 2008 1:01 AM
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Well, I had a petite friend who used to go to Flushing, Queens (which has a HUGE Asian population) to shop. Because Asians have smaller frames and the Gap out there carried more size 2s than the ones in Manhattan.


But I guess it's wrong to say that Asians are smaller.

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kabuk1
December 22, 2008 2:19 AM
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@pollyannacowgirl:

I'll say it- Asians are smaller. They're smaller they haven't adopted America's ridiculously fattening diet. And I am damn jealous :/

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banmojo
December 22, 2008 4:35 AM
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Ok, ok, this really really sounded awful, and on certain levels, it is. The fact remains, there are differences in body types, and sometimes demographics can play a role (Sir Mix A Lot wasn't singing to Jane Fonda, remember? He was throwing it out there for the thick sistas, to whom red beans and rick didn miss her ....

And stores obviously cater to their majority shopper demographic. We've all seen this. That's how they sell the most shit.

So take a chill pill y'all.

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MissingPieces
December 22, 2008 5:43 PM
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i bet she stopped at McDonalds on the way to the 'other' store.

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mpreddy
December 22, 2008 9:36 PM
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I'm sorry the OP was upset, but there is a big difference between \"realistic\" and \"racist.\" Department store executives don't sit around passing judgement on consumers, they stock stores based on computer data that tells the what merchandise moves at which locations. While clerk could probably have been more tactful, let's face it, she's a $10-an-hour retail associate, not the Secretary of State.


Two examples: The Costco in an upscale area of my region -- think 'cities where the CEOS of Fortune 500 companies live' -- stocks Waterford crystal, cashmere sweaters, high-end watches and other goods that frankly, don't sell so well 30 miles to the south in the neighborhods traditionally populated by factory workers. It's not discrimination, it's a fact. So why would Costco buy and stock Waterford in the working-class store?


Another example: I live in a highly segregated (by race) region. Stores like Macy's, Penney's et all stock few if any formal hats -- chapeaus, flowery wedding-guest or church hats, etc. -- EXCEPT at the mall nearest to the dense African American population. We often have gone to those branches to shop for nicer hats and formal wear than suburban stores carry. Pam, you took savvy and efficient merchandising as a personal reflection on you. Again, the clerk could've been less blunt but on the other hand she WAS giving you a solution instead of a PC brush-offf.

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mpreddy
December 22, 2008 9:51 PM
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Is the OP still reading?


one more thing:


[obesity1.tempdomainname.com]


AOA Fact Sheets

Obesity in Minority Populations
Overweight and obesity in the U.S. occur at higher rates in racial / ethnic minority populations such as African American and Hispanic Americans, compared with White Americans. Asian-Americans have a relatively low prevalence for obesity. Women and persons of low socioeconomic status within minority populations appear to particularly be affected by overweight and obesity. Cultural factors that influence dietary and exercise behaviors are reported to play a major role in the development of excess weight in minority groups.


Prevalence


The prevalence of overweight (Body Mass Index (BMI) of 25 or more) and obesity (BMI of 30 or more) increased over the last decade across racial / ethnic groups, as shown in Table 1.
Mexican American and black (non-Hispanic) adults in the U.S. are considerably more overweight and obese than white (non-Hispanic) adults.


So again, you can't blame macy's if certain sizes sell better based on client demographics at individual stores.

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VermilionSparrow
December 23, 2008 9:18 AM
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Heck, I'm not even \"plus size\" (I wear a 10 or 12 in most things) and I have trouble finding clothes that fit right in the \"upscale\" malls, just because my body type is hourglass and not rectangle or pear. I find better deals in the ghetto malls anyway.

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trujunglist
December 23, 2008 7:29 PM
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Boo hoo, sometimes the truth hurts, especially when the person is telling you that you're fat.
Guess what, this isn't Pam's fault at all. Would you rather she lied to your face? Somehow lying in this case is good? Maybe Pam is hinting that she SHOULD complain to management by being so very blunt about her weight and the fact that MACY'S (NOT Pam) has decided that the store in the other mall is for heavy black people. Perhaps Pam would rather they actually stocked plus size crap, particularly so she doesn't have to answer this same exact question all day. What better way than to lay down the sterile corporate policy? What better way to show your disgust than to let everyone know exactly what they tell you?
Also, what's with the whiney shit? Are you kidding? You ARE fat. You admitted it. Instead of being in denial about it, maybe do something about it. That way, no one can insult you for it again! WOW, amazing results! Either that or you have to accept that you're fat and that people think you're fat and that companies think you're fat. Come on, grow some damn balls.

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stepone
December 29, 2008 7:54 AM
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You can't find formal gowns in the plus size or any other regular size department; you have to find the \"formal\" section, especially this time of year. A week ago I was in Dillard's--a generally more expensive store--in the very same mall, and they had an abundance of formal and cocktail dresses--fashionable ones--in women's sizes. But they weren't in the \"women's\" dept; they were with all the other formal gowns. This has always been the case.

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Anonymous
January 28, 2009 10:04 AM
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I think the clerk was a bit insensitive, but i wouldn't say she is rude or wrong.

I am personally 5'2\" and a size 0. I am naturally this size even though I dont diet or work out. Many chain stores such as GAP or THE LIMITED does not carry clothes that fit me. I never complained or felt offended that these stores dont carry my size. Nor do I CRY over the fact that most of the bras sold at Victoria's Secrets are 34B and above (I am a 32A, and trust me, it is not fun to keep being reminded of having small boobs)
My point is, if a store doesn't carry my size, i just give up shopping there and take my business else where. as simple as that.

And just to further prove my points, I once went to a Macy's in Pasadena, CA that does not have a JUNIOR dept. I walked around the whole store unble to locate the Junior Dept, and upon checking w/ one of the Sales Associates, I was told that this Macys's has a more mature clientele so they only carry contemporary and missy styles. So am I supposed to leave the store in dismay and feel that they insult all the teenagers and smaller size people?

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