[i111.photobucket.com]

@11hawkinst: Thanks for the support! I would like to point out that I am proud to say I drive a car Made in the USA!

@balthisar: I am glad to see that all of the irony of the 'jarbs' comment was lost on you.

I do not see how you think that just because the company that employees is American based is better. In the long run, the fact that more foreign car manufacturers build more cars in the United States than Ford and GM combined! (Feel free to look up that fact from data compiled by PwC's Automotive Institute back in 2005 - When Chrysler was still owned by Daimler).

And its not just the assembly of vehicles, its the manufacturing of all of the components that make up the vehicles. Look at the American Jobs that have been created in the South by Toyota and Hyundai in MS, TN and AL. The invested in the economies of those communities as GM-backed Delphi closed plants and laid off workers.

And I am also amused to see that all you gathered from my comment that I am racist. My mother would be proud. GDIAF!

after it sat on the lot for 6 months, my dad picked it up for the price of the base model - about $6,000 less than sticker. that car rocked! best feature: a HUD that projected the instrument panel info onto the windshield just above the dashboard. worst feature: the speed governor that kicked in ~115mph. damn thing made me think i blew the engine out of that car a month after my dad bought it.

How many times do people call up companies to compliment them on their fine services? It's usually a call to complain about something (the back of a Kleenex box says Comments/Questions/Complaints, but how many people actually call to say "Man, I love these tissues, they get all the crap out of my nose!").

Also, yeah, with every brand of car/computer/blender, there will be people with problems, but there's also a certain popularity bias - I used to work in an IT department that was almost entirely a Dell shop. After four years, I had nothing nice to say about Dells, because I'd seen every stupid little problem. After leaving, I reminded myself that a) I'd seen almost entirely Dell machines, and b) I only ever fixed the machines when they had problems. People didn't bring them in when they weren't having problems.

In conclusion, we've owned at least 4 Pontiacs (that I can think of) with no problems over the past decade and a half. I'm sorry about your mom's car, but my mom's Volvo had similar problems a while ago, as did my Dad's...well, everything. There's always going to be some cars that just don't work well, and people are always going to focus on those (naturally).

Health care is at the core of this problem and let me explain why.

When the unions come to the table with these automakers, they are asking for health care benefits for themselves and their families that far outweigh the value of what other manufacturers (who don't employ union workers, ie Toyota, Honda) are having to pay out of pocket.

For this reason, I strongly believe that you save the Big 3, or at least the more competent Ford and GM, by putting into place an affordable health care system. This way, unions can focus on retention of strong workers, the automakers can stay in the black and the focus will be on development instead of just keeping their heads above water.

If you want to save the American auto industry, go back in time 50 years and convince the Big 3 to get their heads out of their asses and listen to what the man (W. Edwards Deming) was talking about.

Instead they laughed him all the way to Japan, where the manufacturers ate up his statistical approach to quality. Anybody here old enough to remember when 'Made in Japan' meant 'Made like Crap'? The adoption of Deming's/Taylor's scientific statistical manufacturing process control is directly responsible for the ascension of the Japanese automobile and electronics manufacturing industries. If you want to know why the Big 3 failed, well, there you go.

@RedwoodFlyer: I have a feeling there is a lot of crossover between the people who say American cars are high quality and the people who think Bose makes quality speakers.

Don't get me wrong...you can surely have a good experience with an American car. You can also buy a Toyota/Honda and have many problems. However, you can also successfully cross the street with your eyes closed. That doesn't mean you should try. I prefer to put the odds in my favor.

My worries are for the tangential and collateral damage. Supply chain/Parts companies/Tool+Die Makers all will failb if the Big Three go down. Not to mention all those restaurants and services from the local economies that thrive the Big Three's plants and offices physically being there.

Here's my take:

For the life of me, I can not figure out why Chrysler/Dodge is still in business? Really, the only cars I'd buy from them would be a Mini-Van, a Challenger or a Magnum and possibly Ram Truck. That's it... Everything is else is superfluous.

Ford/Lincoln+Mercury: pretty decent shape as far as I am concerned. I'd wish they'd keep the full 34% stake in Mazda- but, oh well... Keep Lincoln-- they do make a lot of good stuff. Drop all Mercury, except for the Grand Marquis. Ford get rid of Taurus/500 now. The Fusion is a better car. Get out of minivans now. Keep truck line. Develop better cars.

GM: This is easy. Either go bankrupt or drop 80% of all lines. I'd like to see something like this-- a GM brand side branded with car companies. Take the best from each line... For Chevy: Corvette, Camaro, Malibu, Volt and an econo-car and ALL trucks. Kill all Buick except for high-end SUV like Lucerne... I'd like to see Pontiac and Saturn combine. Both those companies seem to take the Euro and Down-Under GM stuff anyways... Kill GMC-- roll all trucks into Chevy. Ford does not have a 'professional' company for their largest trucks... Why should you?

All American companies should get rid all redundancy. The whole rebadging and let's add some chrome accents and it's a Mercury days are over. Just make a slightly nice appointed Ford Fusion. Don't make a Cavalier into a Cadillac. All that does is dilute your brand. Make them distinct and smaller. Don't get people confused. Like, I want a sports car. Do I want a Camaro or a Fire Chicken? No, they are the same car. I am so confused maybe I'll buy that Stang that just blew by. Or perhaps a Supra... (I know the refs may be dated, but you know what I mean.)

I remember... and this dates me. I went roller-skating with my mom's friend, and she pulled up in a Pontiac J1000. That's a Chevy Chevette for you youngins... My dad had a Chevy Chevette, and I was like why did this chick buy a Pontiac instead of a Chevy...? They like the little badge so much?

When are we going to stop pretending that our economy is based on the principles of free-market capitalism?

With 60 years of an adversarial relationship with their employees, it would be really hard to reverse the trend now that they need to do so right now, but they need to partner with the employees and not treat them like dirt.

One other thing I'd do, is if I'm committed to changing things, I would simply shut down some of these big boats they've been building. Close down the line and move on. Bring in some of the European lines that are so successful there, and make them here.

My mom built her '97 Grand Am and it probably cost about $5000 more than if she had just taken one off the lot.

Everytime I hear that commerical I want to punch my tv.

As parad0x360 said, "Innovate or die".

@kaptainkk: Says less about the auto industry than it does about the American people, who lined up to buy the things.

considering options for saturn sounds like they want to sell it, if they were to stop making saturns i'd probably cry as a saturn owner.

There was a market. They were initially selling as fast as they could make them. The problem was that they cost too much and they couldn't make a profit on them. The cargo room would probably have killed them eventually, without a redesign, though.

Let people customize their own. Build it when they order it, and ship it to them. They waste so much money making them and having them sit in dealerships. And then at the end of the year, they have a giant sale with slashed prices because they need to get rid of them.

There's a Norwegian company that will do something like that with the Th!nk electric car. Kind of funny - Ford sold Th!nk a couple years ago...

For example: Saturn Sky and Pontiac Solstice. Was there really a large market for 2 nearly identical two-seat roadsters with limited cargo room? Apparently not because after all those millions of dollars spent bringing them to market, they've been killed. If there was just the Pontiac, GM could have made it a Miata killer with the money used to develop the Saturn version.

Maybe Lutz thought they would "make it up in volume" but when you're losing 2 to 4 thousand per car, the last thing you want is more volume!

"Sure, the claim is factually correct, but is GM's implied dominance in the mileage game accurate? Look closer, bids DN writer Ann Job, and you'll find the number only reflects about 30% of GM's vast product line. Toyota and Honda, with their relatively narrower range of products, could claim 55% and 60% such mileage, respectively."

[jalopnik.com]

My grandfather's Focus stranded him three times with an ignition that locked up---another Ford design feature.

He only drives Acuras now.

Note the similarities....

They may have more vehicles that are greater than 30 mpg highway, but maybe they just have more vehicles... others could claim we have fewer vehicles, but they get better city and highway gas millage than GM vehicles.

*Highway milage only, does really poor city.

So, you should rephrase it to "I hate to see Mexican people lose their jobs......."

Maybe Lexus should make Pick-ups with cars so tough :p

So why is it any different for GM?!?! Or even Wall Street?

If you don't know how to run a business, you're going out of business. End of story. Let GM burn, maybe they'll be a good history lesson for someone with some logic.

And don't say people will lose their jobs because Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have more American employees than "The Big 3"! Honda is more American than GM or Ford, who out sources to Mexico!!!

Why would I buy an American brand car that I should expect problems with in 3 to 4 years when I can buy a foreign brand car that I can expect to run nearly perfect for 10? They have pissed away their reputation by not taking care of the details.

@technopimp: They have to honor the warranty. They are looking into creating a special trust in case there is a bankruptcy...the fund will cover the warranties and parts distribution.

By the way I love my SAAB. :-)

@topgun: I love my SAAB. Its 6 years old (got it used) and has 85,000 miles. I treat it well and it has not had any major issues. Immensely safe and works great in snow and ice.

I believe the current Pontiacs are mostly born of GM Australia platforms and the Saturn lineup is currently rebadged Chevy SUVs and GM Europe platforms.

The Sabaru is gone with the sale of Subaru and the Saab SUV is yet another rebadged Chevy SUV.

Back in 2000, during one of my Audi's many, many visits to the repair shop, I was given a new LeSabre as a loaner. With under 500 miles on the clock the fake-chrome was already peeling off the shift lever and window switches. As far as "handling" I only needed two fingers to drive; one on the wheel to steer and one up my nose.

When it came time to make the Audi someone else's problem I didn't even consider a GM (or Ford or Chrysler) product. Nor would I today. 6 years in an IS300 Sportcross and the only repair has been a piece of plastic my mechanic accidentally broke.

Q: "Why in *the world* is the General keeping Boo Ick?"

(partial) A: China, which is Buick's largest market.

Anyway, I agree - American automotive has been overpriced junk for a long time (coming from a Detroiter).

I'll support US Auto. as soon as they begin manufacturing cars that can transform into robots. I'm sure they can afford to invest in R&D, considering the amount of excess "airplane money" that will be generated from the bailout.

i'll never buy american, honestly. i care more about my money than that.

They need to cut dealerships. They need to get new business models thought up by people who understand how the world works now days. They just need ot\\to declare bankruptcy, get it over with, and come out better companies in the end. Thank god I don't work in the car industry though

I saw the headline about, "Please sir, may I have some more," and I couldn't help but utter, "I fucking hate you." This is really pissing me off.

Where the hell is this money when colleges and universities are raising fees and tuition to cover rising costs? Or for say, infrastructure?

Notice I did not use the word "brand." Every time I read car lines referred to as "brands" instead of "makes" or "marques," it sounds to me as if the industry is selling boxes of cereal or bottles of laundry detergent, not durable goods (not that GM cars are especially durable to begin with :) ).

Better saving them than the blood-sucking Worst Management Ever Banking Industry - seriously, they Gambled away about $2 TRILLION of CDOs. Let THE BANK CEOs Rot in Jail!!!!

They make more models than everyone else and rebadge the crap out of their vast array of models!

That and what you said about them making crappy models to begin with (for the most part).

@balthisar: okay, you're just making extremely stupid assumptions and you should be aware of the fact that allnitecp wasn't racist whatsoever in that comment. If anything, you're the one being ignorant, not him because he is in fact telling the truth.

GM needs to be ONE operation, ie: make Cadillac one or two models under GM. They never should have bought Saab in the first place. All of the GM sub brands except for Saturn are just a total waste of money.

Fast forward X number of years after the $16 billion bailout has been paid and invested, and the companies CONTINUE to have financial problems. Then, what? I don't remember seeing any good plans for how this money will be used to turn things around. There's certainly no guarantees that this money will do anything positive in the long run.

No matter what, though, they DO need to shed some nameplates.

Also, the Buick Brand is probably the worst brand ever. Such boring cars.

This is what it sounds like to me. I know little about economics, and I really don't know what's best to do. It sounds like it's circumventing the principles the free market is based on, but at the same time it's not always clear that the free market is the best option.

When Arthur Andersen closed here in Chicago, something like 1000 people were out of work. The job market here sucked to begin with, but with all those people looking for work, it's damn near impossible to find work at all. And that's just a smaller company. Do we need another Flint, Michigan? Or Detroit?

@tman996: This is exactly what my friends and I were discussing today. We concluded the following:

Ford needs to drop Mercury, trim the fat on some of those models, and bring back the Crown Victoria for your Grand Marquis. Keep Lincoln, trim repetitive models and keep Volvo to compete with European brands like Saab and BMW.

Chrysler needs to drop the Nitro from the Dodge line up. Drop half the Jeep line keeping the Patriot and the Wrangler Series.

GM needs to get rid of the GMC and Saturn line ups and keep Pontiac, Chevy, and Cadillac as is. Keep Saab around as well to compete with European or at the very least allow them to break off as their own company.

Rebranding trucks and SUVs with the Ford to Lincoln and Chevy to Cadillac/GMC and claiming the the extra 5k to the bill is luxury is crap. I'm not saying that is all there is to a Cadillac/Lincoln car/truck/suv but it just seems redundant and its those redunancies are part of the reason they're failing.

@homerjay- Smiling politely: I got a good laugh out of this one. :)

/pedant

yeah...that's all i got. once you take their SUVs out of the lineup, pretty much everything else is shit.

@parad0x360:

I like your quote.

"Innovate or die."

LOL.

Well did they at least fly commercial this time when they went to DC?

Maybe GM should replace Haliburton and get those GOP sweetheart NO BID contracts.

Would a regular bank give out a small business loan to someone who just ran their business into the ground because of their incompetence? Yeah, I didn't think so.

i hope they don't kill pontiac altogether, but they should retire the brand for a few years & bring it back with some real performance offerings. i want to see a pontiac roadster that makes the audi/z crowd blush. i want to see a stock coupe that'll dust the tuner crowd & make them drop another rent check on fatter pipes so at least their car is louder than mine. & i want to see a gto that's worthy of the name - not some skippy rebrand. & please, please, please fix that problem with your brakes.

& let saab & volvo go back from whence they came. & just a heads up for you swedes - every one of your cars should come standard with a case of vodka in the trunk. no excuses, here. just do it.

Thats all well and good.

Except when the company you are competing with is yourself!

Having chevy and caddy to fight toyota and lexus = good

having chevy and saturn to fight pontiac? = BADDD

Armchair economist? "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."

(sorry, I'm sure its nice on the inside and is cheap etc etc. but you still drive a VIBE)

Why dont I think they build good cars? Well, I know 3 mechanics, 2 of which work at dealers. What cars come in the most for defects or service long before they are due? American cars 9/10 times. What cars based on worldwide statistics have the worst pollution rates and get the least fuel economy? American cars.

I didnt stop buying them because I have something against them. I checked into it and made the most cost effective choice in the long run.

I also dont care if most people drive something. Just because alot of people use or do something doesnt make it the best option.

Oh and it was cheaper than a Malibu with the same options.

Does it not make more sense to go with a company that has gotten it right consistently since the mid 80's (Toyota) than to go with the company that is just realizing what the consumer wants (GM)?

How about going with the company whose cars have held their resale value consistently over the years (Honda/Toyota) than going with the company whose cars lose half their value in 2 years (GM)?

I am tired of hearing half-assed reasons trying to convince us to buy their crap just because they are finally figuring it out. They can tape a ham sandwich to the Malibu and I will still choose the Camry over it!

That makes the ridiculous assumption that anyone is willing to buy them for any reasonable price (if at all).

@LandruBek: Did you read the writing on the wall? I doubt you foresaw this happening.

Armchair economists. I love it.

"Over a week-long test, we found the four cylinder Accord to be conservatively rated at 21 city and 31 highway miles per gallon (MPG), as we achieved 34 MPG on the highway and 28.1 combined in over 600 miles of driving."

"Chevrolet Malibu 4 cylinder 2.2 liter Automatic (4) Regular 21 city 31 highway"

"Toyota Camry 4 cylinder 2.4 liter Manual (5) Regular 21 city 31 highway"

i'm not seeing a difference. maybe you can find one. the camry's even a slightly bigger engine running at the same mileage. that right there says room for improvement.

[www.mpgomatic.com]

Chevy, Caddy, and GMC. Ditch everything else. It's common sense really.

@humphrmi: It probably means they'll sell them off. Thus creating quick cash and unloading debt.

Pontiac needs to just be shut down. Their cars are just heinously ugly rebadges of other cars. Plus, there's that gross vibe when someone says "I drive a Pontiac." It's like taking a trip back to the 80's, only to wind up in a trailer park.

As much as I like driving an econo car from Toys-r-Cars and Honder

(actually they are pretty darn good cars)

What is hell would happen to the price of the average Honder should GM disappear off the face of the earth?

Same thing for Toys-r-Cars and Ford?

Competition is good for the consumer, even if the choices sux dirty slimmy swamp water.

@BusyBusyBusyBusySleep: My parents still have their (and later my) 72 cutlass. It will always hold a special place in my heart.

If an American company has 1000 people in a plant building cars, and a German company has 1000 people in a plant building cars, then the American company is providing much, much more to the American economy than the Germany company, because assembling the car is such a tiny, little piece of the pie.

Likewise, the vast majority of US brands are still built in the United States and Canada, not Mexico, but I guess since you're being racist, Canada's okay because most of them are white.

Maybe your preference isn't an American car. That's fine. I've owned two Hondas and a VW. But don't lie about your reasons; that only shows what a small person you are.

Methinks they had (and likely still have) no f-ing clue what's going on in their own company.

Problem is, the car manufacturing industry alone gives jobs to over 13 million Americans. The financial industry gives jobs to 8 million.

Financial Industry - 100's of billions of dollars.
Auto Industry - 0.

I am sorry, but for me to even consider it a good idea to give these guys bailouts, we are going to need a lot more assurance from them that they are going to invest the money in AMERICAN JARBS!!!

It seems sad that I could buy a Mercedes, Toyota or even a Hyundai that has contributed more to the American economy by employing American workers than one of the Detroit Big 3 (most Fords and Chevys are made South of the Border).

We should make it a stipulation that if they take our money, the should build the cars on American soil!

They took our JARBS!

Yo, GM, lemme give you some advice: QUIT TRYING TO PUSH SHIT CARS PEOPLE DON'T WANT.

I see a lot here about "cutting under-performers", but here's a news flash to the big 3: ALL YOUR LINES UNDERPERFORM. So you're going to cut off the dead and leave only the dying? What are you going to do to raise quality (or perception thereof)? what are you going to do to increase fuel efficiency? What are you going to do to build a damn product that American's will actually BUY?

I could imagine getting rid of the whole dealership style process and go to Car Stores. They wouldn't be brand specific. Ask for a truck, they can show you new Toyota, Nissan, Ford or whatever. That way you get out of the dealership mentality. Few dealerships, and then lower inventory outstanding.

But my Pontiac isn't that bad - my family's been buying them for about 15 years now, and we haven't had any major problems (of course, small ones, but what you expect from any car). The problem is more than they have too many lines, rather than the cars being *BAD* in and of themselves.

Disclaimer: IMHO, IANAL, IAAPO (I am a Pontiac Owner), YMMV, etc etc etc.

Chevy: Trucks & SUVs
Cadillac: Luxury division
Saturn: Cars (Saturn Corvette ZR-1? lol)

That way you don't have the same fucking car or truck being made under several different names.

Basically quality sells cars. But am sure safety and eco-friendliness fit in there somewhere.

Why in the world is the General keeping Boo Ick? I mean, Buick...

Can someone explain to me why GM and Ford divisions in other countries continue to make superb cars (the Mondeo, various Opel and Holden models), while the best GM can do here is produce way-overpriced Cadillacs and Ford gives us a stupid brickmobile the Flex plus yet another solid-rear-axle Mustang?

And don't get me started on those frightening-looking, overpriced pieces of junk wearing the Lincoln badge...

@HRHKingFridayXX: I would add the makers of the Aztec to that list as well.

@tman996: That was my initial thought. The only GM cars I would consider are SAAB and Saturn.

Anyone who names a car "Vibe" (as in vibrator), should not get a bailout.

@parad0x360:

You do know that GM offers more vehicles that get above 30mpg than any other company right?

So when are you going to buy a Malibu that gtes better mpg than a Camry or Accord?

Put your money where your mouth is... thats all I'm sayin.

I would have no issue buying American if they werent overpriced junk.

Innovate or die.

I'd trade 'em all in to bring back Oldsmobile.