Japanese carmakers also have the benefit of national health care for plants in their own territory, as do U.S. carmakers for their Canadian plants.

Universal health care (like there is in Japan and Canada, where many American automakers are locating plants) would chew into the expenses for both current and former employees' health plans.

The Free Market Fundamentalist outlook you proscribe, while elegant in the ivory tower world you're basking in, wrecks havoc in the real world: witness the Wall Street meltdown for further evidence. Those that cling to it, especially now, are akin to Communists preaching the gospel, except from the other end. Even Greenspan admitted he was mistaken. Why can't you?

@cubejockey: "has anyone pointed out that these hilljack senate republicans are bankrolled by foreign car companies who operate transplants in their respective states?
" How is that any different than saying the senate democrats are being bankrolled by the Fail 3 who operate plants in their respective states? How about if you are making a product, and people arent buying said product, you go out of business. I know, I know, that sounds insane at this point.

Call 911, you need the Waaaaa-mbulance.@AngrySicilian:

Foxnews is saying now that TARP funds (yeah remember those mystical dollars supposed to help the mortgage market) are now being targeted for funding the Fail 3. Meanwhile in other news the republic is burning.

1) I read everyones comments except yours

2) I lost my start at io9.com for saying "why is this here" for an Obama post. Had nothing to do with consumerist or gizmodo, the only 2 places I regularly comment. And it's just a star. I'm still smarter then you without it.

@god_forbids: I've been in a union and on strike walking a picket line .A union with- holding it's labor until a settlement or contract is reached is nothing but a negotiation tactic .These companies know this as do many governments when dealing with unions like teachers,sanitation,utilities etc .

The bleed your money thing works both ways .I've seen management purposelly let a strike happen to see if they could starve the union of cash and make the employees desperate while at the sametime hurting their very own business .

A union threating a strike is no different than a company threating a lock-out or shut down of the business .They're are good and bad unions and tactics and they're good and bad ways those tactics are used but they are legal and accepted in many industries .

To me a union threatening a strike isn't as bad as management by threat and intimidation .

Job security is one of a unions main priorities .Was in a job where the company couldn't layoff one employee if they were using so much as one contractor or subcontactor .

The way I look at it the corporations have access to big money and lawyers while an individual employee does not unless they join a union and let union equalize corporate resources .

@AtomicPlayboy: I am not sure what that has to do with anything, especially the earlier claim Bladefist made of how American auto companies have to pay so much more than Toyota does domestically.

No so much a conservative view point as it is a free market one.

Boat loads of government money floating around means crooks and cronies find a wayto get their paws into the cash. Let businesses survive or fail on their own.

Also, they have better contracts with the UAW, but they won't go into effect till 2010. Their afraid that if they go into chapter 11 the UAW will revert to type and say screw long term sustainability we want higher wages now.

That would be an excellent idea in theory. But as you might know, the government cannot be trusted with excess cash. They will not give it back to you, they will simply find new programs that citizens "MUST" have and anyone who says that cutting it out is some heartless rich idiot who is out of touch.

Im sorry about the foul language if it offends you but I wanted to put some emphasis on the fact that I truly and deeply despise the the whole 'bail-out' concept.

@TorrentFreak: You might want to read the commenter code.

Courtesy of cjones27, to whom I am attributing "fact-based" argumentation:

12.1% of U.S. workers are unionized, and we have the strongest economy of the world

CORRECTION:

You mean Bush (one Republican) and Congress (many democrats)

No you see it is not ignorant.

Its just a plain fucking stupid statement.

What a load of horse manure.
For one thing, NOT regulating an industry does not mean its the GOPs fault. The company itself is to blame for not adapting and evolving. That is what freedom is. The choice to screw up or succeed. Freedom is not free.

Stop point the figure at Republicans for giving business the freedom to sink or swim. No one bailed out the horse buggys when cars were invented. No one should bail out automakers now. The downturn in the economy is a natural effect. What goes up must come down.

Why don't they grow some fucking balls and just say we want socialism and anyone who disagrees should go fuck themselves.

What makes these people so fucking righteous to say that some people get bail out money and others don't? The whole bail out idea is a fucking farce. My friends over here should get cash, these guys that I don't like over there don't. Corporate welfare must end. Government meddling in private sector business is only going to make things worse. Too many hands in the honey jar.

LOL are you f'ing serious? The GOP is to blame?!

I blame Bush for proposing the dumbass bailout.

I blame Congress even more for supporting it.

I loath the Republicans who have lost all their spines and any principles they once had.

@JohnDeere: Comparing those costs and salaries directly to the US Auto companies is unfair and not accurate on a 1 on 1 basis.

The Japanese car makers and or most Japanese companies get subsidies for things like R & D and Japan has nationalized health care .Right off the bat the comparisons are out of context if not a true cost comparison .And the Japanese executives don't get the extravagant compensation the US executives get .

Without getting into a full blown debate on US health care I will admit those costs can be a killer .But that problem all extends from the expectations of the user AND the medical industry .I don't think anyone really needs to be covered for the sniffles but for major tests and hospital stays are another .The retiree benefits were negotiated and agreed to GM and others .And even those benefits might be a little plush but when you work or stay with a company for a lifetime career because you were told you would be taken care of I see nothing wrong with expecting GM to pay .The taxpayers are another thing .

Yeah the job bank thing might be a little ridiculous but part of the reason those things are negotiated for is to give the employer/company incentive not to lay you off .If the company feels if's cheaper to fund a job bank there must be a reason-I hope .

And alot of these benefits might be partially funded by the union which again makes a direct comparison to anyone not that accurate .

One last thing,as much as I think the salaries are outrageous on the executive level especially those salaries are negotiated,offered and/or approved by the companies own board of directors just as many of these union contracts might be .

@cjones27: Well, I am not the one making outlandish claims that could be easily verified if they were true. Sorry if that concept offends you so badly.

@AtomicPlayboy: "You have to realize that such reasonable, fact-based arguments are going to be lost on ideologues who have romanticized unions..."

I have yet to see a fact-based argument. I see a lot of outright lies, but nothing factually based.

@slopirate: Yeah, asking them for proof for their outlandish claim sure invalidates my argument all right. They stated 10 times. They can count insurance, etc. I merely asked for evidence for their claim. They ignored me, and me and Bladefist both know why: because Bladefist's claim is not true.

They're good principles. Stick to them. Don't let fear, uncertainty, and doubt distract you.

What Bladefist said:
"Toyota posted billions in profit, GM posted billions in losses. Who caused that? The union workers who cost 10x as much."

Your twisted version of what Bladefist said:
"Do you have any proof that Toyota pays 1/10 what GM does for their workers wages?"

How your twisted version of what Bladefist said influences others:
"Hey, speaking of which, didn't Bladefist say import manufacturers make 1/10th of what US workers do?" -Trai_Dep
"You have been watching this in great detail, YET you claim Toyota makes 10 times the profit, and has a wage 1/10 of GM's." -johnnya2

Watch carefully as the story changes with each angry post. Bladefist never said anything about wages. He was talking about the cost of a worker, which includes many things like health insurance, pension, training costs, etc. in addition to wages. If you're going to argue with him, at least read what he actually wrote and argue with that. Misquoting him nullifies your own arguments.

All of you, stop bitching about citing sources and Just Do It®.

[online.wsj.com]

You have to realize that such reasonable, fact-based arguments are going to be lost on ideologues who have romanticized unions to be the salvation of the mistreated worker, and who ignore the reality that the healthiest and most productive American industries are not unionized (e.g. high technology at the skilled end and Wal-Mart on the unskilled end) while the industries perpetually failing and seeking a government handout are heavily unionized (see: auto industry, airline industry). Convincing people that unions are a millstone around the neck of business which offer only temporary worker advantages is a waste of time, regardless of reality and history.

Everyone in metro Detroit has known that the Big 3 have had problems. They've had at least five years to turn their companies around but they have failed miserably. Why will the next five years be any different? They deserve to be bankrupt.

It comes down to America hurting now, or America hurting in a decade or two after bailing everyone out. We are going to hurt, regardless. I prefer to take the pain of this mistake now instead of screwing up more to delay it.

@Applekid: And when was this or what model was this car supposed to be?

To be blunt, I think this is an urban legend.

/sarcasm

@Bladefist: In order to have an educated discussion, the GOP side would have to have facts supporting their positions. I have yet to see that. Instead, we get the same tired nonsense of "the unions make the poor automakers pay too much more than Toyota", which is simply not true. If the conservatives actually have some kind of valid point, you would think they could obviously make it without the usual lies and nonsense.

@Bladefist: "I come here prepared for debate, and I end up arguing with people who are running totally off emotions with not a clue of what is actually going on here."

I am still waiting for you to back up your earlier outlandish claim about the union wages versus Toyota's wages. For someone claiming to be going off of facts, you seem to be making a lot of these "facts" up.

The new fuel-efficiency standards passed last year don't go into effect until 2020, and they immediately started lobbying for a delay. It's pretty easy for Congress to write a bill that doesn't get enforced for 13 years, by the time most of them (and for sure, the President at the time) are out of office and not accountable.

Both parties write laws with ridiculous timetables, and it's appalling.

But I've heard stories of people in construction jobs who didn't join the union and were psychically attacked after work. But it's just what I've heard.

@Trai_Dep: Wait wait wait, GOP blocked efforts to make efficient cars? So, Ford was going to release a 100 mpg car and George W. Bush called them up and said "Now, y'all can't do that, it's bad for the econimincally."

Permitting the building and usage of gas guzzling SUVs is bad, but giving the a company freedom to do bad isn't the same as making them do bad.

@Skybolt: "the GOP hates unions because they give workers a fighting chance at fair treatment."

That is a totally ignorant statement.

No more bailouts.

@narq: Bankrupt and Chapter 11 bankruptcy are not the same thing. Yes, jobs will be lost, but the company will be restructured.

[www.bls.gov]

And will someone explain to me why Detroit workers can't save their own damn money for retirement instead of relying on a pension? A good portion (don't have a number) of other Americans do exactly that.

Now that GM's healthcare obligations are being moved to a UAW-run trust, even that fictitious number is going to fall sharply. But anybody who uses it as a rhetorical device suggesting that US car companies are run inefficiently is being disingenuous."
That is, they're a liar, a liar, whose pants? They're on fire. :)

The problem isn't that those auto workers make too much. The problem is that too many other workers would rather attack them then get organized themselves and make a fair wage. When I see these high wage numbers for the auto workers, I don't think about taking that away -- I just wish I could have it. And a lot more of us could have that -- high wages, health care, pensions -- if we all realized that our economic interests are different from the economic interests of the wealthy.

As for the burden of retiree health care on these companies, that wouldn't be an issue if this was a civilized country with a national, universal coverage health care system. Better care, less cost, and American companies wouldn't be at a competitive disadvantage against companies in countries with real health care systems.

/vomit

Then why did you call it a bailout?

I know that the government is lending money to GM and Chrysler, and if they go in the tank presumably the feds are first in line for repayment. Are the financial industries expected to pay back all or part of the assistance they've received?

I understand that said assistance takes a lot of different forms, some of which wouldn't be easily categorized as "loans," but there's also some fairly straightforward cash payments that could be paid back -- if we had made that a condition in the first place. Did we?

Personally, I'd like to see a GM-Chrysler merger with some serious streamlining -- ditch all the unnecessary marques, stop making redundant models each with five hundred different trim options, and really start focusing on the basics. Ford, as I understand it, is doing okay at the moment, but if the bottom really drops out of the market they'll be in for it (along with everybody else).

That's one thing to remember: auto sales are down across the board. Foreign automakers are suffering too. It's not just an issue of Detroit making crappy cars nobody wants to buy, because nobody's buying any cars -- they can't get credit, or they don't want to, or they're opting for used instead of new. The foreign companies were in a much better position to handle the initial blows, but if things continue as they have been, they're going to be in trouble.

Hey, speaking of which, didn't Bladefist say import manufacturers make 1/10th of what US workers do?
When's Bladefist going to cite that, or is he blowing more smoke?

Bonus points for his answering my questions (above) which anyone even reasonably following the story should know off-hand. Unless they're relying on Fox News, of course.

I'm wondering if Congress has asked the CEOs of the big 3 auto companies why they didn't ask for help before the banking industry asked for help. I want to know what kind of BS gets cooked up for that answer.

The government has opened a Pandora's box by starting the bailouts and now any large company can use their employees as hostages to bargain for ransom money. The auto industry hasn't been adapting as well in this country as it has been abroad and now it's paying the price.

Where do we draw the line with capitalism? Does a business doing badly because of bad decision deserve extra money just because it's a big business or is it a good time to take a long deep look into the industry and see if we should start doing things differently?

This is bigger than the people involved, I only hope that if the bailout occurs that Congress will add in some hefty changes for the industry like de-unionizing and providing for more efficient cars and fuel research.

I like to dream sometimes...

[www.iht.com]

The best part is the graphic that lays out costs related to an employee.

I'm really enjoying today's episode of Consumerist Chat Log.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that his State is home to three major auto production facilities owned by competitors of the Big Three. Nope, nothing at all. I'll bet his fellow Senator from Alabama has a number of similar "profound misgivings" rooted in "deeply held conservative financial philosophies"

And yes, I know Daimler owns chrysler, but given recent history([www.freep.com]) and its ongoing attempts to dump Chrysler, it's fair to say they don't consider Chrysler a real partner brand at this point.

Shelby, for one, sees the future quit clearly when he says, "This is an installment on a huge bailout that will come later." Like I've been saying since the get-go, bailing out the not-so-big 3 doesn't solve any of their core problems. They're either going to go bankrupt anyway or they're going to come crawling back for more.

If they weren't so reliant on SUVs and weren't paying out disproportionately large health care costs, if financing were more broadly available, and (big leap of faith) they got their quality standards up, they'd be more competitive.

They're not. So, yeah: specific policies, part of the core of who the GOP is, played a large part in the shape the Big Three are in: screwed.

I realize that you guys think that running things is all about Terry Schiavo, Presidential blow-jobs and Defending Christmasâ„¢, but governance really matters. It's not just for yucks. Or for personal enrichment.
We're seeing that now, as the crows come back to roost. Take your bows, you had a good, 8-year run. Now stand tall!

I couldnt think of anything else to say other then to write a book explaining how the GOP hasn't screwed him over.

The unions and the failed business models of these companies caused this problem, which was only recently exacerbated by the credit crunch, but was inevitable. If you want to blame someone, blame the corporate governance of the company in which you chose to invest your money, and blame the unions which forced management to adopt burdensome labor arrangements. Most of all, blame yourself for thinking that Ford was a good investment.

Hey Bladefist, you gotta calm down and not call people names, regardless of the accuracy of your assessment.

This won't save jobs, and it won't stop their problems. By giving them money it's like saying unions work. The unions always get what they want and if this bailout happens, it's just more fuel on the fire. This won't stop until the unions drain every dollar out of the big 3 and then they have nothing left and they all lose. There are much better solutions.

I don't care what you do for a living anymore than I think anybody cares what I do for a living.

Ford is failing because Ford is building crap nobody wants to buy. Bush and Cheney are not sitting outside the local Ford dealer telling people to buy Honda.

This bailout will only prolong the bankruptcy. Will that be long enough for you to rescue whatever it you want to get out of Ford? Truly I hope so. Why should your desire to make money be any less worthwhile over the next guys?

It is better that we let these companies fail now without wasting anymore taxpayer money. I can't believe there are still people who think this bailout will work any better than the stupid financial bailouts have.

Partial birth abortion... late term abortion... dilation and extraction.... Not quiet TomatO TomAto

OK got to get back to work :-P

@Pylon83: agreed. if i didn't think it would cause an absolute catastrophe for our economy (or society in general), i'd say we should just let the big three fail. but i don't really know what else we can do besides bail them out. :\

Wishful thinking. The bailout will pass. The big three will still fail sometime in the next 3 to 6 months and your kids will not only pay for this mess, they will pay even more because everybody wants the government with their no-limit-credit-card to bail out their failed business as well.

The "we will fail" extortion racket worked so well for the banking industry, why wouldn't it work for the big 3. Either way they are going down.

But the "smart" people prefer they go down in three to six months than now...

Questions:
* What % of an auto's mfg cost is labor-related?
* Once legacy costs of retired US employees are stripped, what is cost differential btn US-based US & Japanese automakers?
* If a workers negotiate a deal that execs sign off on, why is it the worker's fault? Don't you believe in accountability?
* Have you been asleep the past two years, when the Big Three ran all their Employee Pricing, 0% APR deals? Selling crappy, oversized cars at a loss doesn't work well. Your point that Toyota made billions? Proves the point
* * Which provides more ammo to the claim that it's the exec's stoopid decisions that have destroyed the US auto industry, not their workers.
* Toyota sells cars people want at a profit. The Big Three do the opposite. Who has a more viable business model? How would screwing retired workers - now of all times - help this core problem?

And yeah, if Republicans are tossing out misinformed data-points, confident that the Freepers will gobble them up and propagate them, solely to rape workers while avoiding fixing the core problems (created by the execs), then yeah, the GOP is screwing us over (or trying to (yet again)).
And, what does it say about the gullibility and intelligence of people who do use these misguiding data-points? Intelligent or idiotic?

I have to get back to real work now... so everyone feel free to flame me as much as you like, without retort.

Oh don't worry, look at the financial markets that received a bailout! They are doing great. Credit if flowing like cheap Russian vodka. Companies are hiring everybody and their dog and paying them major $$$!

So of course giving $$$ to the Big 3 will make all of the little guys run out and buy probably 3 Chevy Tahoe's for each and every member of their family.

You sir, need to stop drinking from the negative-nelly bottle! Everything will be just fine!

Not saying that is you, but so far I haven't been impressed with your knowledge of this. And no offense, but investing in Ford was not a good way to show you know whats going on. This has been compounding for someday. Ford didn't wake up after a booze filled weekend and realize they were in big doo doo.

The first bailout has worked how? So its OK with you to give The Big 3 money so they can prolong their bankruptcy from 3 to 6 months?

GM sold as many cars worldwide as Toyota yet GM continues to lose money while Toyota makes money.

You can sit around and blame the GOP all day long if it makes you feel better. This is exactly what both political parties want. Half the people blaming the other party. You are part of the problem as you buy into one parties bullshit over the other, as if your party is any better.

The sooner you wake up and realize that you will get screwed either way, maybe then you can start making wise financial decisions. Or do you just prefer to be screwed by someone with a (D) in front of their name?

You should take the advice. You could use it.

@karlrove: I actively lobby my senators to vote against any pro-midwest legislation.

And if you work for one of them, or a vendor of theirs the bailout will only stimulate them for a few months. Then its bankruptcy time.

And it's obvious your only thinking about yourself. And, ya, you still need to wise up.

@AngrySicilian: I am losing money because the GOP is making it hard to pass this bill.

That assumes the stock will rebound when the bill passes. Still to be determined...I'm not convinced that will happen.

/rant

Did you know they top 3 Autos spend more money on health care then steel? The problem lies somewhere else.

@Bladefist: Do you have any proof that Toyota pays 1/10 what GM does for their workers wages?

You're reading into my comment without taking a moment to think that I'm talking about F, the ticker symbol. I am losing money because the GOP is making it hard to pass this bill.

I don't give a shit about anything but myself in this instance.

And phuck off with this wise up business, seriously.

Why do you think the foreign car manufacturers are doing way better than the US manufacturers? Higher profit margins due to lower operating costs. They are simply better at competing.

I'm always trying to figure out why democrats and left-leaning people blame all of the big problems in the world on large corporations, yet they want to spend TAX PAYER money to bail these "problem makers".

Its not like these CEOs will say "Well, we didn't get any bail out money, everybody go home. We'll just shut all of our doors and never do business again."

I'm telling you, an organized bankruptcy is a MUCH better option for these companies than a bailout will ever be.

* Bailout plan not working, Big 3 file for bankruptcy. CEO's step down, with huge compensation package.

* Honda opens another plant. Employing thousands of American workers, stimulating local economy.

I don't care about them. I've been laid off twice from tech jobs and the government didn't help me out. If they lose 2 million jobs, oh well. The government said I didn't even quality for aid or unemployment. Maybe they should go get real jobs that pay real wages that actually reflect what they deserve. No one gave me a handout when I lost my job because the company I worked for wasn't doing so well.

Both of these bailouts just prove that the government thinks we should all suffer equally for the bad decisions of a few people.

By the way, does anyone else smell bacon?

[www.portfolio.com]

This isn't abortion, gay rights, or anything of the nature, and so I hope we can keep party politics out of it as much as possible. The GOP is doing what they think is right. So are the democrats.

I understand a lot of people here are against the bailouts. And it probably scares you to be on the side of the GOP. But this time the GOP is on your side, not the side of the corporations. It's okay to agree with the GOP. It doesn't make you a republican.

Do you know that toyota and GM sold the same amount of cars last year? Toyota posted billions in profit, GM posted billions in losses. Who caused that? The union workers who cost 10x as much.

But go ahead and hate the GOP. God forbid you wise up.

i just got the following email i wonder if its true.

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers.
Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)
GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)
Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)
Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)
According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).
Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan.
Many industry analysts say the Detroit Three, must be on par with Toyota and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care costs.
What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about "transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high school diploma, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the average university professor with a PhD.

Then there's the "Job Bank"
When a D3 (Detroit 3 carmaker) lays an employee off, that employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement, etc., etc., PLUS an hourly wage of $31/hour.

Here's a typical story....
Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.
"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I just sit."
Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers as demanded by the United Auto Workers Union - UAW - as part of an extraordinary job security agreement.

Now the D3 wants Joe Taxpayer to pick up this tab in a $25 Billion bailout package - soon to be increased to $45 Billion if Nancy Pelosi and Hillary Clinton have their way.
The "Big 3" want this money - not to build better autos. No. They want it to pay the tab for Medical and Retirement benefits for RETIRED auto workers. Not ONE PENNY would be used to make them more competitive, or to improve the quality of their cars.
We ALL have problems paying for our Medical Insurance - but the Democrat leaders in Congress now want us to pay the Medical Insurance premiums of folks who have RETIRED from Ford, GM and Chrysler.
Not a good deal for us.
How about Chapter 11 - and getting rid of these ridiculous union contracts?

It seems to me that we're much more likely to see a return on the bailout of the auto companies than we are from the bailout of the big banks.

The auto companies are asking for 34 billion, getting 14 billion. How much did we give to AIG? Are any of us really naive enough to believe we're going to see the money from AIG ever again? And that completely ignores all of the other banks / financial institutions. Those jagoffs are good at one thing...making and keeping money. I guess that's actually two things.

I feel that if they can't make cars that are desired by the public, then they should fail and go out of business.

@The Name's Ash78, Housewares: And by that, I mean they don't lobby against the bailout.

@cubejockey: Not true. The local paper (Birmingham) did an article on it about a week ago...our in-state manufacturers DO compete with the big three, but they also share a supplier base. They're neutral on the whole thing.