Herman writes:
1. Posted my ad to sell a PS3 on Ebay
2. Got email from a man who is local, wants to buy my PS3 for the Buy it Now price
3. He said he wants to pay first, come pick it up the next morning
3. First time using Paypal, so I thought I'd be cautious and told him that first, the money has to be an Instant Payment
4. He agrees, transfers the money
5. Picks it up tomorrow morning, he seemed like an ok guy, started getting suspicious when he said he did not want to come inside
6. Gave him the PS3, he walked away, and drove off.
7. About a week after, Ebay sends me a message about this guy, saying the username is stolen
8. Suspicious, I tried to take the money out, Paypal told me the funds were invalid. All emails to the scammer go unanswered, of course.
9. Called Paypal, they set up a case that took 2 weeks and required me to send them identification verification,
10. They closed the case, saying they could not reimburse me the funds
11. I called Paypal to complain, and they told me the address existed, but it was not his address. I asked them, "You said your website needs address verification before anyone can send out instant payments, correct? What is the point of the address verification if you don't check it BEFORE allowing him to send instant payments?" Their reply? It was an issue they were "working on."Basically no one could do anything for me, and I was out $650 (PS3 + 5 games). In retrospect, I should've double checked his information on Paypal before I gave him the goods. But you know what, when Paypal sells itself on how secure it is, and offers an option of payment that is secure because of address verification, you expect to do its job.
Some tips I got from Paypal were: If your ad was on Ebay, make sure to do the whole transaction using the Ebay website, so that at least they have it on record. Also, that its safer to ship it out then to meet the person upfront, because Ebay has no way to tell who did what.
Anyway, lesson learned, cut my losses, moved on. Hope this story helps!
(Photo: jpghouse)
]]>"Who Paypals money and then picks it up? Doesn't that set off a whole set of red flags? Isn't it easier to meet in person with cash?"
Not necessarily. Prevents waiting for a buyer who may never show up, and handling cash which can be problematic from a security standpoint.
]]>If you have a police report to use as supporting documentation, they might be able to help out.
]]>@noscamsplease:
Outlook read receipts only work when the person your sending the email to is using Outlook and their mail settings and/or security policies allow them.
He needs to call Sony and the local authorities. they MIGHT help him out. but he needs to do so ASAP. they could trace the PS3 and find the jerk.
]]>Too bad eBay doesn't have cash on pickup as an option for payment. Still though, if the person is meeting you at your home or place of business I'd suggest asking for a valid drivers licence. If they show up and say "I forgot" don't give it to them. Worst thing that'll happen is they'll get Paypal to retract the money and you'll still have your merchandise.
]]>Have sold motorcycles and items via ebay and craigslist. If meeting in person I always meet in public- preferring supermarket parking lots with video cameras- Kroger, Walmart, etc. Cash is king here for the small odd type goods...
As for motorcycles, I meet in larger supermarket parking lots in order to demonstrate the cycle (which may not have current tag or insurance). I will not let the buyer test ride unless he gives me the entire amount upfront and then I will refund him if he doesn't like the bike after a test ride (and doesn't crash it). Then we do the deal inside near the in-store bank if they have one. I have also met buyers at motorcycle dealerships midway between our two areas so we do the cash transfers inside the dealership.
If buying a cycle I prefer to bring a deposit only first and then pick up later- if possible at a neutral place. This is a safety issue as some sellers tend to be from iffy areas (both urban and rural) and I do not have a concealed handgun permit. Last purchase I did the deposit/purchase bill of sale inside a McDonalds and the final payment at a Kinkos/Fedexoffice (also well known for video cameras).
]]>At least you've got a happy ending.
]]>@Mr-Mr: This is why I don't use paypal anymore. They pulled that shit with me YEARS ago, when a shady buyer chose not to insure their item and told Paypal they didn't receive it. So Paypal went on the buyer's word and withdrew the money from my account. At least it was only a sweater.
]]>@BeeBoo:
"The real scammer is eBay/PayPal, not the person who took the merchandise."
That's just silly. That's kind of like saying that you weren't responsible for that reckless driving charge, it was Ford's fault for making a car that could do 80mph in a school zone.
]]>Who Paypals money and then picks it up? Doesn't that set off a whole set of red flags? Isn't it easier to meet in person with cash?
]]>The lesson learned is to always avoid paypal when possible (for example, this time cash would have been very easy), and work with credit cards (buyers, not sellers). Paypal is dirty dirty dirty.
]]>What it doesn't say is that if you're receiving money, you really have no protections whatsoever. They will always find some loophole in their terms and conditions to exclude your transaction, or they'll just plain stop responding.
]]>He then received an email from PayPal claiming there was some sort of error or issue with the payment method, and they debited his account the $1500, which resulted in an overdraft fee and lots of headache.
Bottom line, not even that is safe. They'll just hit your account for the money.
]]>They obviously haven't fixed their constant problems and probably never will until they both die.
The only complaint I have with this, would be that if I met anyone in person for any sale via strange online service, it would be at a public place and be cash only. If they guy has the money on an online service, then he can can get cash from a bank.
The lesson I have learned from all the stories on consumerist, my brother, and my friends is to NEVER EVER use PayPal or eBay for any reason whatsoever, and only deal with cash from local, public meetings through an ad service, classifieds, or craigslist.
]]>Is their a unique serial ID sony has? if he signs online, even with a different ID, Sony can tag the serial, and get the IP. Assuming a) you had an online account and b) it contains the PS3s ID number in your user info somewhere.
]]>Just a thought, you have the guy's name, right? If he's local, contact your local police department. Chances are, if he scammed you, he's got a criminal record, even if it's just parking offenses.
]]>I bought a magazine subscription and paid with money I had in my paypal account. The magazine never came, and was told by paypal that I had only 30 days to request a charge back or credit. I stated that the subscription seller stated that subscriptions would start in 30-120 days depending on the frequency of the magazine. I complained how can they only guarantee a credit within 30 days when they allow sellers to state that it could take up to 120 days to receive something. And, since ebay owns paypal, then they are basically stating that they will not honor something their own company promotes. After several emails, and about 4 hours with ebay and paypal customer service,and a threat to file a complaint with the Georgia Department of Consumer Affairs I was able to get my money back. Granted it was only $11.00, but it was the principle. Now, I will never keep money in a paypal account. This way, I can always dispute it with my credit card company when I use the credit card to pay a paypal fee.
]]>i was selling a rare-ish, out-of-print game on ebay.
it marks the first time i've ever used ebay to actually sell anything.
it sat for a few days without an opening bid, then a few came in.
the top bidder sent me a message about being a local buyer,
and said he wanted to send payment via paypal and pick up the item.
this person actually wanted to go outside of ebay, actually, so it's a bit different.
i didn't do it and that bidder didn't win the auction.
if the claim he made about his bid was true,
then it ended up selling for about 130% of the price he was offering.
well worth the ebay fees, in my case.
op should take the scammer to judge judy;
i saw her charge the maximum jurisdictional limit to an ebay scammer!
If the guy was trying to go outside of the system, why did he take a PayPal payment? The OP sounds pretty clueless (eBay wise, he is new after all) so I doubt he even knows the fee's involved or how to get around them.
Sounds more like a eager-beaver wanting to make some money off his PS3 and forgot about the old saying...
CAVEAT VENDITOR
]]>If you know the serial number you could ask sony to track it as stolen if it appears online... maybe? (can they do that?)
]]>I have the buyer sign a document stating he did receive the item, it was in the condition as described, best I could demonstrate. Two copies signed, one for him, one for me, signed by a witness. No paypal on local pickups because of this loophole.
Granted, I'm still leary on doing these transactions and I have over 3600 feedback.
]]>Well, then, I'm sorry to hear you got scammed. If there was a "retract comment" button, I'd use it.
]]>Again, the whole transaction/message were all done through Ebay. Only time I used email was when he wanted to double check the address and my availability.
Sorry, should've been more clear in the original post.
]]>Actually, it's 0.2%.
]]>Being in Los Angeles, I doubt the good men and women in the force are hungry for a case like this. "Stolen PS3?! Im on it!" haha
]]>Out of 4 ebay transactions, 2 were fraud (one a seller, one a buyer).
So, I'm batting 50%!
Alas, eBay's reaction to both of the fraudulent instances made it VERY clear that they really don't care. I, too, am now in the 'Craigslist + cash only' camp.
]]>eBay owns about 1/5 of Craigslist.
]]>@NikkiSweet:
It said the buyer "wants to buy my PS3 for the Buy it Now price" and then he "transfer[ed] the money." Also, he comes out and SAYS "If your ad was on Ebay, make sure to do the whole transaction using the Ebay website, so that at least they have it on record."
If he had completed the transaction through eBay, it WOULD have been on the eBay website. The fact that he's saying it _wasn't_ on the site means to me that the deal wasn't completed through eBay.
Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this is just really poorly phrased, but my read of this was:
1. OP put item for sale up on eBay.
2. Buyer contacted OP, said I'll buy it.
3. OP said OK, $ were transferred (but not really), but Buy It Now wasn't actually used.
@Farquar:
I hate to point this out but 1 out of 500 transactions is .05% and still stick to my belief that Ebay grossly underestimates fraud rates.
You can get bit in the butt just as easily going THROUGH paypal.
Just assume every transaction on eBay is a scam and take that approach when buying and selling.
]]>@sodomanaz: Ebay owns Paypal. Craigslist is independent.
]]>@SudhiraAeolus: I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Ebay/Paypal like to bill themselves as secure. Unfortunately, scammers are out there and Paypal isn't going to take the hit. I had a friend lose about $20-sorry your lesson learned was more expensive. Not stupid, but expensive.
]]>Pay anyone with an email address or phone number - instantly.
* Send money to family and friends.
* Pay for goods and services.
* PayPal is the secure, free, easy way to pay - and privacy is built in.
Just look at this situation as a non-Ebay transaction. Paypal says it's a secure way to pay for goods and services. Obviously it's not.
]]>There are plenty of stories on the net about the horrors of eBay/PayPal.
But picking up locally and paying thru PayPal just reaks of a scam. I have sold a few things on Craiglist and explicity say that I only accept Cash. They have gone well.
I don't wanto blame the op, but did you ever think why someone would wanto pickup in person but pay thru a payment system that is known to have issues in regards to scams? Next time use Craigslist and except only cash. Also, since it was a LOCAL crime, I would submit whatever details including how the person looked like to the local police.
]]>@Meltdown: Receiving offers from scammers is not the same as 10% of ebay transactions being fraudulent. 80% of the email I get is in some manner pushing a scam. I've never responded to any of it, so the fraud rate on transactions resulting from my email is still 0%.
You need a larger data set to have any sort of reliable figure.
I have done about 500 transactions through ebay on my two accounts. While I have had more than my share of transactions that pissed me off, nearly all of these are situations that are more accurately described as misunderstandings or novice ebayers with unreasonable expectations and the inability to package properly. I can only think of one transaction that I would say was legitimate fraud, and that dude was kicked off ebay within a week.
The issue of stupidity is of far greater risk to the bottom line of ebay than fraud. I don't buy much on ebay because sellers appear to have been trained by chimps when it comes to packing and shipping. Broken stuff is not better than no stuff at all.
]]>not a very good reader, are you?
]]>Sorry about what happened. Based on your responses to posts you did just about everything possible to avoid being scammed. They've always got some new trick.
]]>Also, I've received numerous emails from ''newbie'' scammers.
In total, I've received offers from scammers on 10% of all auctions I've held.
]]>As a seller, you have zero protection, while using PayPal. You rely on buyers' honesty. That's it.
]]>@Farquar:
What you guys are saying is very true.
However consider the math,
My Total Ebay transactions: 57
My Total Fraudulent transactions: 2
That would make my fraud rate 3.5% (350x greater than what I should have experienced). Consider the fact that I'm a weary consumer, purchase only from sellers with 95%+ positive feedback. I'm also not factoring the dozen or so solicitations to close out transactions outside of Ebay, hundreds of emails requesting that I verify my Ebay account, etc.
]]>#1: That was 2001.
#2: I sell on ebay and only use paypal. Out of 1500 transactions (including about 8 PS3's) I've never been scammed. I've had a few people not pay after the auction ended, but no one sending me money from a stolen paypal account.
A tip, ALWAYS use delivery confirmation, and signature confirmation on high dollar items.
]]>I can't believe what you put up with there, Herman. I would have freaked the fuck out (of course, I'd never actually part with my beloved PS3 in the first place...).
What doesn't makes sense is where is this money coming from? Did the guy pay PayPal some money that he quickly removed when he got the PS3 or did he use someone else's account for the transaction (which later got nulled due to the address issue). At what point does PayPal accept any responsibility for the massive amount of fuckups they seem to be responsible for?
I've never used PP and I never will. This is verification why.
]]>There are two very simple solutions that PayPal/Ebay should implement, both of which should have been implemented before. First if they are going to let a purchaser demand their funds back, they should hold the money in an escrow account until the shipper provides them with valid tracking number that matches the requested shipping information and standards (such delivery confirmation). There after the purchaser should have no recourse to get their funds back. If Ebay were to provide buyer protection against false claims, they should stipulate that fact and PayPal should have no recourse to access your money. The collection should fall on Ebay. The other solution is to only post funds that are guaranteed, after they release the funds I should not have to worry them revoking them.
I had a friend who knew about being scammed by foreign purchasers who would claim the package never arrived, and PayPal would withdraw the funds from his account. The trick he used was to have withdrawn the money as soon as it was paid, so his account would go negative. I thought at best unethical, but potentially susceptible to legal action if PayPal ever tried to collect. They never did though, and that was 3+ years ago.
]]>Lesson: don't accept a payment for a non shipped item. Demand a refund. If you have to, refuse the payment.
]]>Craigslist is cool if you live in a big urban area - but if you live in the sticks, then Ebay provides access to the whole world. Too bad it is a world fll of scammers.
]]>As a former employee of PayPal, I have seen this same story perpetrated countless times.
Their protections departments are built to prevent the company from getting sued and not to protect their customers.
They also intentionally isolate their phone reps so they don't have the knowledge or ability to make corrections on the customer's behalf.
I might suggest filing a grievance with the BBB or Attorney General.
]]>You read consumerist, so your exposure to ebay deals is very limited to those that have gone wrong. Sure you know some work out, but you see the bad ones all the time.
Its like a neonatal nurse who is convinced that 90% of children are born premature (and a solid 10% have too many appendages). Of course the real percentages are less than 1/10th of that, but for neonatal nurses, that is all they see, so it skews their perception.
All that to say: Your estimated fraud rate is bupkis.
Oh, and don't work in a NICU if you want to have children without freaking out.
]]>But I _always_ bring cash, and I would expect any half-sane seller would demand it.
That said, the poster does bring up a valid point, in that there is a weakness in eBay's system.
]]>However, I only have a credit card that has a $300 limit registered with them and there's no way in hell that I'd ever give them unfettered access to my checking account, no matter how many times they nag me about it.
]]>Yes, the auction did end. Buyer used Buy it Now button, paid through PayPal. Thought the tip was clear, but I guess it wasnt.
]]>As much as I like to argue with you, you're ultimately right. I should've just gone with cash and be done with it.
Like I said, I used PayPal because I wanted the transaction to be on record in Ebay if I ever needed funds reimbursed from a scam. Turns out that didnt help one bit.
And yea, hard to scam with cash, but in my area, a lot of people have been hit with fraudulent claims of sellers "stealing" money from buyers, even though the goods have been paid.
Looked out for my own ass and got bit anyway, but I would hardly call myself stupid.
]]>@catastrophegirl: Paypal scams! Credit card fraud! Counterfeiting!!!
Hoard Hoard Hoard!!!!!!
LOL. Seriously, I'm almost afraid to sell anything now.
]]>Every time I try to sell an item on Craigslist I get at least one scammer who wants to pay by check and then immediately send a "moving company" to pick up the item. The guy got scammed and Paypal even helped the scammer! So I deal in cash. And the buyer sees, holds, and tests the item he is getting. Yes I am limited locally, but I never have trouble finding a buyer.
]]>Filed the report, called PayPal, they said, "Now its up to the Police Department to find this guy."
There would be no way to find him, so no one (including myself) was optimistic about the turnout.
]]>@deadspork: What's even funnier is that ebay owns craigslist from what I remember.
]]>I guess, since it was my first time using Ebay, and my paranoid nature, I thought that if he ever wanted to come back and say I stole his money, I would have record from PayPal that I didnt.
]]>No matter how many times I called PayPal or Ebay, they would not do anything for me. Good job at getting them to reimburse.
]]>Trust me I don't blame you one bit. I hate email scammers.
In the future I have one suggestion.
Next time if your meeting face to face and they aren't paying in cash.. do the deal and then write down their plate number on their car. A call to the local police station with the number and you have a good chance to catching that theif.
I guess its easier to say it now after the fact.
]]>Nope, send the message to me through Ebay, paid through Ebay/PayPal.
]]>a blacklight is effective - the "US50 US50 US50" strip embedded in larger bills [make sure the denomination of the strip matches the bill markings] is highly visible under a blacklight.
and learn to look for the super details - get a magnifying glass if you need to. and feel for the raised intaglio printing on the numbers in the corners.
paypal, cash, money orders... it can all be faked and scammers know more about it because the honest people are always playing catch up.
now off to post my old washer and dryer on craigslist for $25, must be picked up, cash only.... no large bills....
]]>I realize that eBay is the biggest game in town, and that status makes it the most likely place to get top dollar for your stuff, but there has to come a point where the cost of doing business over ebay outweighs that.
I hope that day comes soon.
]]>Wait, the scammer 'paid' online, but you didnt take your money before handing the item over?
]]>Paypal sucks. I try to avoid it if at all possible. Its okay to buy things on, but if you try to sell its a hassle. Barely use it but used it to sell a high priced item recently and they held $2500 for nearly a month while they verified. Finally took an e-mail to an executive (found on Consumerist, of course) to release my funds.
]]>Called the local law enforcement, and they sent out a "civil claims" officer. Basically, he said that since all the information I have of the guy is false (the address he used for Paypal lead to a Mcdonalds), I really couldn't do anything. He'd start a report, but that was about it.
Yes, I had to pay the fees to Ebay. First, he asked me to close the auction and sell it to him, and, paranoid as I was, I asked him to first use Ebay to Buy it Now, then send me the funds through the (supposedly secure) PayPal Instant Payment option. What irks me is that, going in, I was afraid of being scammed, so I looked up all known scams and how to avoid them. Looking back, I made 2 mistakes: Not double checking the address (though, like I said, I trusted PayPal to do that), and not asking for straight up cash.
But yea, suffice to say, now I exclusively use Ebay to buy, and craigslist to sell. Thanks for the comments, guys!
]]>paypal is the worst. i ordered vouchers through ebay (entire transaction done there) and paid with paypal. seller sent me worthless photocopies. complained through paypal dispute resolution and six months later, nothing. said there was nothing they could do. i was out $127. said they "investigated" and seller sent me "something that I signed for." YES, worthless photocopies, which is impossible for me to know BEFORE I SIGN for the envelope. paypal had some sort of appeals system which I followed, only later to find the email containing all the information of the case was DELETED WITHOUT BEING READ. THANK GOD FOR Outlook Read Receipt. Ebay ended up refunding a little more than half the cost after I provided them with the proof that the appeal information was never even looked at by Paypal.
]]>If you guys read, the guy sent him an EMail not a message through Ebay, Second he says the guy wants to pay for the Buy it Now price.
I'm an avid Ebayer I sell a ton of stuff on it and it works just fine, However I get people all the time that want to scam the seller. They send me Emails that state they want to just buy it from me without going through ebay. This is what happens when you try to not pay the final fee.
The guy transfered money into his paypal account without using ebay thus curcomventing the problem.
If you went through ebay this would be an ebay issue not paypal.
And yes call the police.
And never do local pickup for little items i don't care if they live next door to you. use tracking and if you ship to unverified addresses get a signature.
saved me many times.
]]>Anyone else remember this article from 2001: [www.wired.com]
eBay maintained that a very tiny portion of its auctions turn out to be scams.
"It's less than 0.01 percent, and we've seen that rate coming down recently,"
I wonder if we can put in a class action lawsuit against Ebay for lying about their statistics.
I believe the true Ebay fraud rate to be about 10-15%. It's gotten so bad that I'd rather purchase from a hole-in-the-wall website then use Ebay.
Plus, with a police report on your side, Paypal might pay more attention. At the very least, you may be able to recover some money via homeowners' insurance.
]]>No, the auction didn't end - it looks like the guy paid separately, outside of Ebay, for the Buy It Now price.
]]>@mike: FWIW, the currency markers don't work.
]]>When dealing locally, always deal in cash. No checks or money orders. I used to accept money orders when I sold stuff through Craigslist, but ever since the scammers started duplicating these, I went to all cash.
Buy one of those currancy markers from Staples and you'll be good to go.
]]>@hillsrovey: Isn't it funny that something as low-tech as Craigslist kinda trumps all the long-standing contenders like Ebay and Paypal?
]]>Regarding fingerprints / description : Somehow I don't think he's going to get much response from the "non-violent crimes <$1000 division" of his local police force.
]]>Yeah man, if he was local, I would've insisted on cash, but hindsight's 20/20...
]]>See... it's in the article.
There was no trying to get around eBay's rules/fees... he played by the rules, it's just that paypal/eBay don't play by their own rules.
]]>I've run into a lot of issues selling electronics on ebay - now I just stick to craigslist and cash for those items...
]]>Actually, for those of us who can read it seems like he did the transaction on eBay given that eBay had the user's bidder ID.
]]>"You said your website needs address verification before anyone can send out instant payments, correct? What is the point of the address verification if you don't check it BEFORE allowing him to send instant payments?"
Is that false advertising? Or something like it?
]]>You tried to go around eBay, in order to avoid paying eBay fees, and it bit you in the butt. Not much sympathy here. If you were really that concerned, you could have told him "I'll see you tomorrow, and bring cash."
]]>