No, really? I thought they were the best of friends...

"Our prices are to DIE for!!!"
"Prices have been HACKED and SLASHED repeatedly!!!"
"You'd KILL YOUR OWN MOTHE...

OK, T-R-Us can write their own advertisements.

Your premise is based on the idea that all guns are from legit dealers. Cause all criminals get their guns from legit dealers, or steal them from people who buy them legit right? I'm sure you believe criminals never get laundered firearms from war zones, cause that's just impossible.

Oh wait, that premise you had. I proved it wrong already.

Really, there are 2 types of advocates of anti-gun laws in my opinion.

1. The pure idealist. Lets all end wars, make peace and love and hold hands. Then maybe smoke some pot and watch the sun set.

2. Then there are the people who have no idea what happens outside in the world, and have no idea how the world works. The idea of a firearm that can instantly kill people frightens them, and so they push it away.

Really, you'd be a great big sucker if you believe the other thugs out there carrying won't hesitate to shoot you. And go ahead, tell local convenience store, gas station owners to drop their weapons, because the chances of them getting robbed is just sooooo slim, especially in this run down economy. No one is going to rob a store, or even try to mug you right?

You said we can't win the argument to the question of where criminals get guns.

Well then I say: Guns are laundered from outside. The AK-47s street gangs get are from old soviet satellites where guns and other weapons aren't controlled or watched. Where do all those guns go to after the cold war era? Where do all the guns go to from the countless civil wars in Africa?Simple, these cheap guns are laundered into other places. The even simpler solution to your unbeatable question: People simply make their own guns. Gangs and organized crime make their own firearms based on existing blue prints. The designs are all there on the internet, and if places like China can bootleg toys and cars, they can certainly bootleg firearms. Almost all arrests for firearms in Asia are for illegal production and modifications. Hell, you really think even gangs in America are rich enough to get a silencer that even ordinary citizens cant get? They make it themselves. There are tons of makeshift modifications for firearms out there that doesn't exist on the legal market.

So, I have just won the argument that you claim cannot be won. That's very cool, thank you for allowing me to make the impossible possible.

I'm pretty sure my position is simply: if people don't buy guns, and manufacturers don't make them then criminals won't have them.

To take your premise to it's confusing conclusion guns can have many uses such as communication, research, transportation. That's the problem with analogies, they don't really work. Things are never like other things. Guns aren't computer-like, car-like, or phone-like. They are not used for talking to friends and family, or for getting groceries home from the store, or for playing video games or studying for homework. They are used pretty much for one thing. I won't insult your intelligence by spelling it out for you but it involves a deadly projectile.

-Carry a gun
-Get confronted by someone else with a gun (or I guess witness someone doing something criminal with a gun that I would stop)
-Shoot at them (and hit them) before they shoot at me

Problem is, I've never in all my life (and my life has been plenty diverse) encountered anyone doing anything with a gun other than fucking off and shooting shit as if it were a toy. Yes, gangsters carry guns. No, you should never let a gangster with a gun kill you. But really, when is this ever going to be a factor (certain lifestyles, jobs, and environments excluded)?

And most people are way too stupid to carry a gun. Then crime happens. If getting a license would be a hassle, there would be many less idiotic deaths.

Also, settling a verbal fight with a gun, proves those guys are not brightest bulbs out there.

OK, you tell me how they get their guns in China/Hong Kong and Japan? If we're talking about American handguns (and I'll assume we are since you took the conversation overseas), I'd guess they get them from America. So, either the manufacturers or dealers are selling them illegally or they're stealing them. If the NRA had their way they'd likely be even easier for them to get all in the name of personal security.

I never said guns made criminals, Uncle Ben or Yoda or whoever you are, I just said that I don't need anyone walking through the mall watching out for the badguys for me.

"So go ahead and tell them you don't need their protecting." When the soldiers are no longer enlisted I'll be happy to tell them that. While they're still in the service then I guess I'd expect them to do their job and protect the country here, over there, and anywhere they happen to be. Same with cops. And "selling out their lives for nothing"? I have to say I don't know what you're implying with that so I won't bother answering it.

As far as armed men entering my house goes...well, I'd guess that that is just not likely enough to happen that I need to give much thought to it. I'm not really sure why you guys spend so much time thinking about it. It's never happened to anyone I know and in fact I don't think, short of a couple of home invasions back in the 90s, I've ever heard of it happening really at all. Where are you living that this is a concern.? Maybe the "real" I need to get, is living in a real world West Side Story like you all claim is out there.

Frankly, I could give two craps if you keep a Mossberg blah blah blah under your pillow to protect you from the boogey man, just don't claim that there's any real reason for real people (select group aside, and you know who they are...and I doubt you're one of them) to be carrying sidearms in public (and I think that's pretty much what we're talking about here). And yeah, I guess if you want to put it that way...if 1/3 of Americans are walking around strapped because they're afraid they're going to get killed at any moment, then yep, I guess in some way they aren't/ain't living in a very "real" world. Take that however you want.

When I say "throw down your arms" I'm not saying that "at the moment" you aren't legally entitled to have your little handguns, it's just a suggestion. I think you'll find it pretty liberating to be free of concern about the nameless, faceless "Other" that seems to be haunting you. Go ahead though: Stockpile 'em. Trade 'em. Knock yourself out. Make yourself nuts. Just don't claim to be doing it in the interest of the rest of us. It's all on you.

I guess being a toys r us kid there means you really wont grow up. Cause you'll be dead.

Again, and forever, it is people who commit crimes, not inanimate objects.

What people believe is immaterial. Anti-gun biased media is well entrenched, world-wide. Lies, repeated ad nauseum, do not become true.

There are a (limited) number of us up in Canada who agree. But, we'd all ask the same question (including those who disagree): Does it make sense to allow citizens in a country with the world's worst track record for killing each other with guns to own guns designed only to kill each other with?

Now, if you weren't all shooting each other with them, sure, we'd change our tune. But, there lies the rub: While the concept is nice (and even morally defendable) the implementation of it in your country is clearly fail.

Sorry, but it's true. At least, those of us outside the US believe it is.

By the way, it isn't a matter of win or lose, it's a matter of cogent vs. paranoid thinking.

If a criminal can somehow manage to buy a gun, he has violated at least Federal, and probably State laws to do so. So that makes them, ummmm yeah, a criminal!

If a criminal steals a gun from me, then that makes them a thief, which last I checked, was a criminal!

The premise of your position is invalid, as it somehow attaches a moral value to an inanimate object. A gun is not an evil thing, it is a hunk of metal. To take your position to its logical conclusion, we should outlaw the sale of computers, because an embezzler might just use one to steal more money. And telephones, because a con artist might just call up someone and convince them to donate money to a fraudulent charity. And cars, because some criminal might just use one to get away from the scene of their crime. The examples are ridiculous, but no more so than your position as well.

But seriously, according to the NIMH, there are just over 13 million people in the US with a "serious mental disorder" and according to the NRA, there are just over 4 million members. So you would conject that nearly a quarter of all serious mentally ill people are members of the NRA?

Do you expect to be taken seriously when you say such things?

So yeah, sometimes, despite what your local news tells you, a jerk with a gun is just a jerk with a gun. Even a - gasp - non-White jerk with a gun. :)

It's not that the cops won't do the job, it's that they can't be everywhere and can't prevent violent crime before it occurs. DesignerToast, or someone else with a conceal-carry license, just might be there when you need it.

Not everyone needs to carry a weapon. But if 1 in 10 do, there are very good chances that the next time a crime occurs, someone can stop it then and there. Not waiting until after a shooting occurs and 911 is notified to send out officers.

It's because I live in the real world that I don't lay down my arms. If you want to lay yours down, please do. That also is your right. Just don't disparage or take away the rights of the many people who have saved themselves and others because they were prepared.

No, I have a ton of respect for police, and all the fine folks you mention.

It's a matter of physics. Distance traveled = Rate of speed * Time to arrive.

An average time to respond to a call in a city of any size can range from an impossible one minute to what is probably a more average 2 to 3 minutes. An encounter with a criminal gun user will last an average of under 10 seconds.

They are fast, sometimes incredibly fast. Even so, you are going to be dead.

Again, read the news. This is well documented.

"Toys "R" Us issued a statement expressing outrage over the violence.

"We are working closely with local law enforcement officials to determine the specific details of what occurred," the statement said. "Our understanding is that this act seems to have been the result of a personal dispute between the individuals involved. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to associate the events of today with Black Friday.""

Title should say something like "on Black Friday", vice current.

Why throw down our arms when it is our given right ever since the birth of our country?

You may not need a vigilante, but what if armed men enter your house and threaten your family and children? What if they are also carrying firearms? You're not gonna do much with a kitchen knife in that case.
I also have to say: Many legal and clean people carry firearms, and lots of them. The people who live in the real world with the rest of us, the people who put gas in their cars, watch their kids play, paint houses, read books, etc all have the right to own a gun, and if you even did your research you'd be surprised by how many of these "real people" own a gun. How about a third of American "real people" households owning at least one gun? Are you saying 1/3 of Americans ain't "real people"?

It's also funny that you mention not needing militia and mercenaries to protect you, yet you defend for soldiers in Iraq. These soldiers are people too, and most likely when they are out of the army, they are still people too. And guess what? They're doing their job of...you guessed it: protecting your country. So go ahead and tell them you don't need their protecting. Tell them they're selling out their lives for nothing.

Guns don't make criminals. With great power comes great responsibility.

Also, criminals getting guns because people in American can buy guns? Thats funny, cause even in countries such as Japan and China/Hong Kong where firearms are strictly controlled and illegal for normal citizens to carry, most gangs and organized crime still have semi autos and assault rifles. Gee I wonder how they get their guns.

Get "real".

What about firemen? Hate them too? They good at making spicy chili, sliding down a pole, and if you're lucky they'll show up and sprinkle some water on your smoldering ruin of a house?

Soldiers in Iraq? Good at sweating in Kevlar, reading censored Playboys, writing home to mama, and maybe, just maybe they'll find the time to engage in a firefight with some talibanies if they think maybe there's some of Saddam's gold to be had?

My point is you paint a picture of a ravaged country where only citizens with firearms can truly keep us safe from bad guys. I say throw down your arms and live in the real world with the rest of us who brave the hard cold streets ever day: shopping, putting gas in our cars, watching our kids play, painting our houses, reading books, etc., all to no ill effect.

I don't need a vigilante/mercenary/militiaman/secessionist to protect me from the baddies. I takes me chances, and overall I feel pretty damn safe. (and I don't need to do research, I'm a former gun owner)

Now a question. Where do you think criminals are getting their guns from? And you can't win this one. Either they're buying them like you are or they're stealing them from people who are buying them like you are. Either way the reason they've got guns is in your hands as far as I can see.

Becker and Fagen had it right all those years ago.

"When Black Friday comes

I'll stand down by the door

And catch the grey men when they

Dive from the fourteenth floor"

- Steely Dan, "Black Friday"

@snoop-blog:

Yes, but do you honestly think that all members of a gang are always together?

It's entirely possible (and, in fact, likely) that these were just members of gangs.

A bit long winded, but thanks for posting this. Criminals are the problem here. Carrying a gun does not make you a criminal, turning one on someone else else does.

Why would you think it is "miraculous" that nothing ever went wrong? Holding a gun does not turn someone into a criminal. Not even holding a gun in a room where there is a large amount of cash! Do you think that a gun will magically cause someone to become a bank robber?

People who break laws are the problem. Sometimes these people use tools to help them break laws. Computers, knives, lies, telephones, and even guns. And many times would-be victims use tools, including guns when appropriate and legal, to protect themselves and their families from criminals.

What these horrified individuals seem to forget, or perhaps never knew is that we live in a society that has people who don't obey laws. We don't yet know whether or not these two deceased gentlemen were legally in possession of, or were legally carrying their firearms. However, it is certain, if the description of events is accurate, that crimes were committed by one or both of the individuals: Self defense does not allow one to "chase down" an aggressor and fire upon him.

It is self-evident, and clearly illustrated here again that mere laws will not stop these kinds of events from happening.

So what can you do when this does happen? Many people are vehemently in favor of allowing the police to handle it alone. Read the news. The police are quite talented at drawing those nice chalk outlines around your body, and notifying your next of kin. On a good day, they might even catch the bad guy. Yippee. You're still dead, and perhaps your family along with you.

No, I'm very happy to report that it is not the crazy, or the idiots who lawfully bring firearms into a Toys "R" Us. It is the mother who wants to make sure her daughter lives to be walked down the aisle to greet her groom. It's the father who wants to teach his son's little boy to throw a baseball in about 20 years. It's your next-door neighbor who would rather answer questions of self-defense, than leave his widow and orphans to care for themselves for the rest of their lives. With proper training and instruction, and if you are eligible under the law, it could be you who will not be the next victim!

Guns are not the problem. Criminals are. If you have doubts and you sincerely seek answers, do the research. If you have bought the anti-gun media's lies long enough, the truth will be a big surprise.

@Corporate-Shill: A horrible, frightening dystopia where your precious, banal feelings are suddenly more important than how competently you express them.

What is the world coming too?

I have no problem with gangbangers killing each other. I do feel sad when an innocent bystander gets shot. I'm not sure from the article who the two dead people were. If they were people just out shopping on Black Friday, that sucks.

@trk182: Well it was only 4 people. 2 people is hardly a gang. A gang as in the gangbanging sense would have to be organized to be an actual gang. A true gang has a leader and a chain of hierarchy and a mission statement in a sense. They have meetings and uniforms much like a business would have.

I'm not saying they weren't in a gang or that this had anything to do with any gang. There are not yet enough facts to draw that as a conclusion. The only thing I can say is that I'm sure the world is a better place now that we are two less idiots, because only an idiot (or cop) would go to a Toy's R Us with a gun on them.

"two groups of individuals that have a dispute with each other."

That quote made my day, lol.

"two groups of individuals that have a dispute with each other"

We here in America call those "Gangs", often depicted in movies and TV. People who "represent" different gangs or "sets/crews" can often be differentiated by the display of "colors".

Show us your gams!
Show us your gams!!
Show us your GAMS!!!

Are you serious? Ben, are you writing a crime novel here? :-)

But yeah, I'd have to agree with snoop-blog, this story was less about crazy shoppers and more about crazy people. And since this is Palm Desert, I'd say there are plenty of crazy people in the surrounding area.

@snoop-blog: Seriously $7 per hour is not enough for me to be the one to unlock a door holding back 5,000 people who are irritated from waiting in line for 3 hours. It is ironic how selfish these people act in order to buy gifts for others.

Although if this was related to black Friday I think stores should have to start offering hazard pay.

Accdording to the news and TrU, this incident was not related to black friday. Two women started a fight and their men broke out the handguns. the 2 women reportedly did not have any items they were purchasing. The news source I read it from said they think it may have been a gang incident but they believe it was not related to the black friday sales.