As for the way this guy handled the situation (the owner) he is 100% in the wrong, and a person can order their drink however they like. There is many times people order things I dont like, and think it kills the espresso, but its THEIR choice, not mine. It is my job to do what? Correct! MAKE THEIR DAMN DRINK HOW THEY LIKE AND WANT! PERIOD!

Dear Murky Coffee,
Your values are in the right place, but do not fuck with people who drink coffee how they want. Do no deny someone from doing what they want with their coffee. If you don't like it, don't have a store! And if you blog about it, don't tell off your customer, because he, like me, will now never come into your establishment, and have already told 10 friends in the DC area who now are "former customers" as well.
Respectfully,

ROGER ALFORD

And stop calling yourselves baristas you're waiters or coffee-jerks. You're pouring coffee, sometimes over frozen water, not curing cancer so get over yourselves and get the man the drink he is paying for.

@comicgeek77: Earlier, Gouda explained it perfectly.

Milk and other items left are a cost of doing business for any normal coffee shop. If you have milk and sugar out for people who buy regular coffee drinks, then you should be factoring it into your overhead costs. The same way you factor in napkins or ketchup or plastic bags for people to take away their purchases.

If the occasional person who buys an espresso and pours lots of milk in isn't covered by the operating costs, you need to reconsider your planning and budget, rather than rail against customers. There will always be people who try to 'take advantage' or 'go cheap'. If you drive them off, you might drive away their friends and family, and neighbors and acquaintances who you'll alienate by going hard-core.

This financial information released about Cho (having some of his shops shut down for lack of tax payment) shows that he's probably not planned well for the health of his business. It's not his customers' fault for "stealing" milk which virtually all shops absorb in their operation costs -- it's the old P to the 6th power - Prior Planning Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.

You can either raise the operating costs across the board (raising all your prices to cover them), or raise the price of the espresso. Either way, once a customer pays for an item, you have no right to castigate them for what they do with it (unless it's battery acid and they blind someone with it). You can deny them service in the future, but what the barista did (starting off this elegy of crassness) was uncalled for.

By the way, I recently requested a decaf espresso from Starbucks. They just gave it to me for free.

The owner is not under any obligation to provide any product or service to anyone and even less obligated to provide something that isn't even on the menu.

The customer was being an entitled dick.

/Golden

He didn't threaten to dick punch until arson was mentioned. His store, his clear policy, the customers choice to GTFO.

In fact, aside from the customer- I'd say the next largest share of the "blame" lies with the barista for not giving the Americano as an alternative. Although you can't even be sure that it didn't happen.

That said, it seems to me they're both wrong. Obviously, neither should have stooped to threats of violence or arson. Those aside, if Nick's reasoning is that espresso over ice tastes bad, then he should let it taste bad. The "ghetto latte" issue is a little tougher, but my instinct would be to let the customer have it instead of fighting it - if you're going to lose money as a result of one or two customers using this loophole, there's something wrong with your business model.

And to the people complaining with this "customer is always right" crap . . . never, never, never let me hear you say that in my coffeehouse (which, frequently, happens to be Murky Coffee in Clarendon). I will punch you in the dick. The customer WAS right . . . in the 80s, back when you had to wear ties to dinner and call your boss "Mr. Johnson". Now the customer/business relationship has changed fundamentally, so that customers have received the right to be recognized as more than a number and employees have received the right to not be treated like animals. If you don't like this, then go buy a coffeemaker.

This way everyone gets what they want.

-Bill

Ben, your an idiot. At no point did he try to prevent someone from doing something AFTER it was sold. Simply put they don't offer it. The owner even stated the employee shouldn't have given the guy the ice.

Looks like you better add your dick to that measuring contest.

Although I don't think the store owners policy makes sense, it doesn't have to. It's his store. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. For whatever reason, this guy really really cares about his coffee, or latte or whatever. His store, his perogative.

I occasionally go to a cigar bar, where people can smoke and enjoy some of the finest cigars one can buy. They have a "no cheap cigars" policy. If someone were to light up a White Owl or a Swisher Sweet, they would be shown to the door faster than white on rice or dots on dice. It's a place for cigar afficinatos.

So if this coffee guy wants to run an elite, particular business for coffee purists, it's his business. If you don't like it, go somewhere else.

1) Espresso over ice does not mean I'm going to add a ton of milk to it;

2) If people are abusing milk, keep it behind the counter or have your staff add it for them;

3) I don't give a fuck what you think happens to the coffee when it hits the ice. It's my coffee. Maybe I like those 'acrid' flavors.

In short, hope this publicity bites coffee house owner in the back and he looses business. Not acceptable.

I'll not be patronizing the murky coffee, thank you very much. Anyone who thinks only they know how to make a good cup of coffee is an idiot and too egocentric for me to deal with. I will drink my coffee as I see fit and no lowly coffee maker will change that.

Ha ha ha...wiener.

@SAGoon987: He certainly does have the choice to serve or not serve. Granted, as I said before, the guy is in the service industry so it seems rather stupid to constrain your customers in what they can get. Rest assured, I'd get loud and obnoxious if not knowing his (IMHO "retarded and pretentious") policy was denied an order for a pizza. The way you describe it, you'd think that he's a making life or death decisions. He's a pizza guy for crying out loud! The very notion of opening up a store where you can choose what you want is that the customer can have what he or she wants so long as he or she is willing to pay for it. If I walk into a NY pizzaria and ask for a slice with pinapple, bacon, pesto chicken, meatball and olives they don't get all offended and upset like your silly pizza guy. They make the slice, add up the topings and charge me for it. But to make a slight change in a classic Airplane line, "Chump don't want the biz, chump don't get the biz."

It's too bad, because it actually is true that there is no better cup of coffee in the entire DC area..

The customer was a total DICK, because it is the owners private business he can deny a certain drink to him for any reason he chooses, the customer needs to comply with the policy or he can go to another coffee shop. Instead the customer tried to be slick and get around it, I deal with plenty of these people every day who think they are slick, It usually ends in them being barred from the establishment with no refund or anything.

And to those who question punching dicks, most states allow for occupants of buildings to use lethal force to defend against arsonists. So a punch in the dick would be well below the legal threshold.

No, you're a cashier at a coffee shop.

That's a big IF. That's no reason to blindly side with the coffee shop owner on this one. There's far, far more going on in this story than just the POSSIBILITY of this guy using some milk.

When I was YOUNGER and less worldly, I went out to dinner with my Pastor, (ex gourmet chef) and his family, I ordered a steak, it came in slices, and I asked if I could have some cheese for it, a I was used to steak and cheese subs. Needless to say, it was an insult to the chef, and it did take some explaining before I understood it.

For those people complaining about how the coffee won't taste different because of the temp of the pour, as the owner says, you are WRONG, there are many items in the real world that are changed differently due to how the heat or cooling was applied, think of tempering a blade, think of a glass blower, think of cement drying, just some examples... I would disagree about the ascorbic acid though. I would think more that when the surface of the ice melted, it infused with the poured liquid in such a way to cause it to go slightly sour. Maybe a sugar crystal that normally balances the sour is destroyed...

I don't think it's cool taking advantage of independent businesses.

And the ghetto latte at Starbucks is 50% cheaper than an iced latte and stronger? They deserve to have cheapskates game the system with that kind of an arbitrage.

@MercuryPDX: When I ask for a "large iced coffee with a shot of espresso", don't repeat in a condescending tone "Don't you mean 'A Cold Shot in the Dark'?".

Recent experience at Starbucks:
"I'd like a small cappuccino—"
"A tall or a short?"
"Ummm... which one is a normal small?"
"Probably the Tall. "
"OK, I guess I'll have that."

Another recent experience:
"I'd like a double small hazelnut cappuccino."
"How about I put just a hint of vanilla in there?"
"Sure."
"Great. You are about to have the best cappuccino you have ever had."
[Stunned silence. I really wanted to say "Do you really have no idea how preposterous and impossible that statement is?"]

@SAGoon987: So you think it's the vendor's place to tell you what you want to eat? Contrary to the coffee example where they think they're getting defrauded and deprived of a profit, the prohibition on extra meat toppings doesn't really serve any rational business purpose. Are you somehow trying to say that if I want pepperoni, meatballs and sausage on a pizza somehow I'm ruining it? Don't get me wrong, it's clogging my arteries, but that's my right as an American (or at least it was until my girlfriend decided I had to eat healthier). Shopkeepers and people in service industries who think that they should be able to dictate the personal tastes of customers are the real assholes here.

If they just sold fresh cheap coffee everybody would have come out of this happy.

tax cheats don't get to complain about coffee hacks.

So what if it's well-known in the area? If he's not from the area, how would he know?

Am I, not a resident of the area, visiting some friends there, supposed to magically "know" things about this freaking coffee shop? Am I supposed to magically "know" just what is "proper behavior" as defined by the owner and those who are from the area and who frequent this joint?

Or am I supposed to behave rationally and expect that if I want it over ice, I can get it--because in the real world, that's not a big deal.

You're putting some aura around this joint and the owner's magical mystical ways of creating an experience in a cup. Big freaking deal.

That all being said, the owner could easily do it his way. If the owner truly believes any of this that he's shoveling, he should take people like the OP and bring them around to understanding it the owner's way. "Oh, you want it over ice? Here, let me show you a better way. Here--here's your bit straight over ice. Now let me show you how it should really be done--see what you think." If it truly is better, and most people think so, lead the customer to understand that.

Or not. Maybe he likes mud over ice. If so, that's his prerogative. Some guys like redheads, some like blondes. It's not right or wrong, it just is. You're in business to sell stuff, you have espresso and cups and ice--so if he likes it that way, just do it.

As far as "ghetto latte": if you have a couple of days for some good reading, go back to the original discussion:

[starbucksgossip.typepad.com]

I like those restaurants that won't let you make mistakes. There's a pizza place in Washington state that will only allow a customer three toppings, and only two can be meat. I hear the dumbest orders all the time from people, ruining their food. I support this company and do not support the OP's passive/aggressive tip leaving and otherwise asshole behavior.

fancy coffee is apparrently.... serious business.

LMAO @ "ghetto latte"

The person who mentioned this as an episode of seinfeld pretty much hit the nail on the head. But our coffee shop owner makes a terrible Soup Nazi.

Obviously the customer was a bit of a dick but even so I have to side with him for the following reasons.

The view that the customer is always right is not always true however I find it disturbing that many employees feel that the customer is always wrong. Most people are intelligent enough to tell you what they want and don't need an arrogant employee to tell them what they need.

The barista most likely failed to explain to Jeff the reasons behind their policy. If they had taken the time to explain and the customer still wanted the iced espresso then I feel they should have given it to them. I also believe the barista should have asked if they had planned on making a ghetto latte and if they were, ask them gently not to. If they didn't listen, all they would have to do is ask them to leave. This isn't customer service, this is plain old treating people decently and more importantly to Murky's, educating the populice about the coffee they care so much about. Perhaps showing Jeff the amount of care and attention to the drinks being made would have prevented this from happening and made them a repeat customer.

I also feel the owner of Murky Coffee should have taken the high road in this case. Threatening your customers is bordering on insane. He should have reached out and asked Jeff to come back and perhaps taken him into the green room and shown him how to make the perfect coffee and why they have the policy. Offer him a couple drinks on the house, perhaps even have him brew a couple of his own espressos...especially with this kind of publicity on the blogosphere, they could have easily turned this bad situation into a positive one for both Jeff and Murkys.

People need to think about what they are going to say before they do say it. The owner of Murky Coffee reacted poorly and reflects bad on his business.

The story wasn't as amusing as the headline, but it sure got my attention.

@afrix:

Damn you beat me to it. Maybe I should read posts before posting.

Fucking coffee nazis

No coffee for YOU!

"Q. What's wrong with "espresso over ice?"
Answer: Espresso is a fairly volatile thing, and when it hits ice, it seems to go through a chemical change that we can't fully explain (and I haven't seen a good explanation within our industry quite yet). It does appear to have something to do with ascorbic acid, but when"

That's because he's making that crap up. He thinks the flavor of whatever minute amount of Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) in coffee changes when it gets cold? Pretentious excuses. He should just give his customer what he wants and shut up.

That said.....just stop it. You make a beverage. You don't save lives, you make coffee. You don't put shuttles into space, you don't come up with life saving drugs. You solve NO problems facing mankind. You are not an artist, an artiste, or whatever your calling yourself to justify the fact that you make 6 bucks an hour to fetch....my....coffee.

Snotty hipster douchebags might think twice about who they are asses to. Do it to the wrong guy, and you might end up with a screwdriver buried to the hilt in your eye socket. It wasn't all that long ago that DC was the murder capital of the US.

Why did the barista... Who should, as a coffee handling professional at that store, know why they don't offer that beyond "it's really not OK."

Both these guys acted like douchenozzles, but I can't help but think a light dusting of customer service would have prevented these two nozzles from crossing their streams. I feel dirty having written that sentence.

Thank you Mr. Coffee Shop Owner Man for telling it like it is and calling the jackass customer out!

Seriously Nick is my hero for speaking his mind even if it means he will lose some customers over it.

Don't worry Nick, those clowns are not the type of customer you want to come into your shop anyway....

Umm he did threaten arson and should re-think his desire to extract status when we all no know him to be a whine.

The customer is often right, but just as equally an @ss. Remove adequate response to @sshole customer as a fireable offense and see what happens...Oh yeah...France...where waiters of 20+ years experience to not defer to UglyMerican fratheads.

You-all should go back to StateU and sign up for Logic 101. A person may be A-a fantastic purveyor of coffee and not B-a financial whiz. My bud ran the absolute best restaurant in the county...finances took him out. Yet McCorporate's thrives.

Better get used to more storekeepers throwing your Entitled @sses out. You're not worth the grief your pittance costs.

"One day, after getting sick of being fired (or close to it) from pretty much every job he ever had, Nicholas Cho decided to look into starting his own business."

gee, i wonder why anyone would ever fire nick... he's got such a good attitude.

If the customer doesn't like a policy, go elsewhere.

Sure the staff may have overstepped their bounds, but so did Jeff in the end. What Jeff did was out of line with what he should have done (formal complaint). Two wrongs do not make a right.

Once Jeff had escalated this as he did with his comments, it is unfair to complain that the owner fired back at him in like manner. Like the owner said: If you dish it out, be prepared to receive it back.

Congrats to the owner for backing his staff and understanding the customer is NOT always right. As a customer service rep, I can tell you this is true more often than you'd think.

Whoa. As a Seattleite, I was totally into this until I realized it was DC and not WA State... Bummer.

I can vouch for the fact that ordering an iced espresso is completely acceptable and common here in Seattle, and we take our coffee VERY seriously. (Arguable, more seriously than anywhere else in the country. If it's good enough for Seattle, it's good enough for ANYWHERE.)

How much is a gallon of milk, especially when you're buying wholesale, anyways? A couple bucks? Even if people WERE taking advantage of the milk-as-condiment situation, is it even possible that it get to the point where it was actually causing a financial hardship for the business owner? I have a hard time buying that. If the coffee biz is so tough that the milk is make-or-break, I think that the shop owner has bigger fish to fry. Or beans to roast. Or whatever.

The argument the owner tried to make, in justifying the de facto ban on iced espresso, that "over half" of the people that order iced espressos are covert milk thieves by way of the "ghetto latte" (which is, in fact, an incredibly offensive phrase) is utter and complete BS. A pretty decent percentage of people WANT their coffee black. Not everyone is guzzling up the dairy products, thankyouverymuch.

What amount of milk constitutes the "ghetto latte?" How is there SO MUCH ROOM in the cup that the "guest" can add SO MUCH MILK that it's costing the shop serious money? Chances are, the iced espresso drinking "guests" that use the condiments are adding no more than the amount of milk that a drip coffee drinker, or an Americano drinker, who likes cream adds to their beverage.

Does the shop owner look over the shoulders of ANYONE who orders a drink sans dairy to verify the EXACT amount of milk that they're adding and cutting people off at the condiment/ghetto latte threshold? How is the iced espresso so different from any other non-milk containing beverage?

Besides, there's NO WAY that the three shots of espresso, disposable plastic cup, and scoop of ice adds up to the $4.50 or whatever they are charging for the iced espresso. The cost of the condiments is figured in, right there, in the cost of the drink.

This business owner is dumb, plain and simple. Does he have a right to refuse to serve iced espressos? Sure, of course. But he's still dumb And a shitty business owner.

One final gem, besides the whole back-taxes thing... He claims to take his coffee SO SRSLY but... THEY DON'T ROAST THEIR OWN BEANS?!?! WHAT THE HELL?! Even the most mid-range of coffee places here in Seattle roast their own beans-- THAT is how you have quality control-- not by adding tepid water before cold water or whatever mumbo-jumbo the store owner was spouting off about. Also: they serve drip?! Most of the "real" espresso shops here in Seattle do NOT serve drip. It's an Americano or nothing. For someone who claims to be so dedicated to the quality ("integrity?") of his product, to the point that he's willing to piss of and alienate customers, he's sure not going about it in the right way.

There is a difference between taking your product, business, and passions seriously and in being a faux-expert pretentious/elitist fuckwad. This guy sounds like a perfect example of the latter.

Real coffee can be fund here: [www.espressovivace.com]

This whole "ghetto latte" think has me worried I'm doing something wrong. I'll get a regular iced coffee from Starbucks, then add some skim (couple of oz.), mainly because I want the coffee flavor, rather than a bunch of milk and a bit of coffee. Am I violating some kind of unwritten code, or is the small amount of milk I'm adding acceptable?

Here's a solution - if the ghetto latte is so infamous, why not keep the milk and the half-and-half behind the counter. Force the customer to specify how their coffee's made.

Only the abusers lose.

However, refusing to serve a drink against a customer's wishes when it doesn't really involve going out of their way (except to think of the horrible, horrible thought that the unrefined customer might be drinking a less-than-perfect beverage.)

Sure, you might know how to make a perfect cup of coffee, but the other person ordered his espresso over ice simply because ... (gasp!) he probably likes the way it tastes!

Didn't know Kyle Farnsworth owned a coffee shop...
[dugout.progressiveboink.com]

"Espresso is a fairly volatile thing, and when it hits ice, it seems to go through a chemical change that we can't fully explain (and I haven't seen a good explanation within our industry quite yet)."

Translation: No rational explanation for this pahontom phenomenom exists, because I totally just made it up."

What an assclown. This is why I make my own coffee.

Jeff could have handled this situation much more effectively if he would have instead responded to David's comment with a combination of surprise/snark (within the lines of respectability of course).

I've been to that Murky Coffee a couple of times. My impression is that "elitist" is hardly a label they would shun.

Take the milk pitcher away. Quit blogging and run your coffee shop.

The incident would have ended with no problems if the waiter had just not said anything when he gave him his order. But, no, they had to editorialize. Then the owner makes a dick of himself. I work very near this place, but I guess I won't be giving them any business.

If this guy wants to take advantage of an independent shop owner by exploiting a loophole in the menu system and he isn't able to do so, he does not have any right to bitch and moan about it. The customer is not always right.

The solution is not to be a dick, and close the fucking loop hole! If the cst wants an espresso with a cup of ice, or any combination of Espresso, cup, ice, that would result in a ghetto latte, just charge them for an iced latte. Explain that up front:

"Sir, I can give you your order, but any order of Espresso and Ice will be charged as an "Iced Coffee", which costs the same as an "Iced Latte"."

Was that so hard? No. You can thank me later.

It sounds like a pissing -- excuse me -- urinating match between Frasier and Niles Crane. Just two more reasons to save money and make a much better cup of coffee at home, served with NO attitude.

Basically he's saying he's never coming back, no how no way. He's not saying he's going to commit arson. He's saying he's not coming back EVER, and qualifying it with some humor, albeit not to everyone's taste. But I do find it funny.

For example, everybody living in central Arlington knows that Murky doesn't sell French-roast coffee because they believe that French roast coffee ruins the grounds.

This is really a open-and-closed case of "bad consumer!" for picking a shop that even a high schooler knows won't serve him the sad-ass excuse for crappy product he was looking for. You don't go to a white-linen restaurant to ask for Chicken McNuggets, so don't go to Murky to ask for crappy coffee.

Regarding the ersatz latte issue: If the coffee shop puts out items for free consumption, they are considered an offering with implied restrictions. An implied restriction is something that a reasonable person would understand regarding the amount and/or use of the item. For instance, even though a hot-dog stand has a pot of free relish you can't just go up and help yourself to a spoonful. You have to buy a hot-dog first, and the amount you take has to be appropriate to the size of the hot-dog. Even though Ruby Tuesday puts fifteen pink packets on the table doesn't mean you can use one and stuff the other fourteen in your purse. These sorts restrictions don't need to be posted. It's enough that a reasonable person would understand them. Thus, it should be obvious that the purchase of a latte shot and cup of ice does not entitle one to an entire cup of milk and ten sugars. In fact, it is theft. Petty theft, by petty people, but theft nonetheless. You could be arrested, although it's highly unlikely that you would (Officer! Officer! Arrest him- he took too many sugars!!!)

If I knew folks were "ghetto-espressoing", I'd absorb the extra creamer cost into the raised espresso price!

They both deserve a cock-punch.

I haven't been at the coffee shop, but I would assume that what they serve is posted somewhere for people to see. If they don't serve it, don't serve it. Being served at any store or eating establishment is a privilege, and not a right. Although I do disagree on the whole punching-you-in-the-dick comment, I do support the owner in following his store's policy. And as to the OP, I mean really, can't he blog about something else other than coffee? That's the biggest upset of his summer? And here I was worrying about my bank maybe closing down; but, I should be worrying whether a coffee place is serving espresso over ice or not.

Responsibility for taste is negated once you decide to do whatever you want to the drink. If some jerk wanted to put ketchup in his coffee, fine with me, just don't bitch about it when it tastes like shit.

But the owner pretty much gave up any moral high ground he might have had by his response to this whole thing. Now both parties sound like a couple of jackasses to me.

Leaving the scrawled-on dollar ups that ante to full-blown asshole.

I don't know what it is about the internet that obliterates perspective and makes everyone feel completely entitled to what they want at any given moment and validates bottomless indignation when denied their whims but you can certainly see it in action here.

What should have happened, in my opinion is that as soon as the customer crossed the line (swearing at staff) he should have been asked to leave. The coffee shop is a private business. Anyone creating a disturbance should be asked to go.

The shop owners response was overblown and unfortunate in that the barista caught in the middle is now taking flack for his bosses hot head.

You buy the product, you can do whatever the hell you want with it. Including pour it over ice.

Sounds to me quite frankly that they are both dicks.

"Again, not entirely sure why the different technique yields such different results, but it does. If we put the coffee through two slits, it'd probably act all confusingly then too."

weird... i just watched that youtube video from digg yesterday...
[digg.com]
dickish owner and bitchy customer aside, i found that interesting

The owner's long, winding response was great.

The rest of the crap was childish antics. Go to your corners, count to 10 and come out crying.

I can not be held responsible for what Consumerist.com does - sorry.

Arson threat? Not at all cool and completely uncalled for.

That said, Nick Cho is the real dick here who needs a good punching. Cho owns a business which proffers overpriced coffee to a customer base for which he clearly feels nothing but contempt. Then he complains about "consumerism." That's a friggin' hoot.

You mean the exact same thing that keeps your business alive? Dumbass.

I think it's like the iPhone. Can't you just picture Jobsey threatening to punch someone in his dick for hacking his "precious".

Starbucks endorses the "Ghetto Latte"

[www.moneyhacks.org]

Not to mention if his business model is that tight, he needs to run a dollar store and not a coffee bar. I mean really, how many schmucks do that? I have *never* seen it done, and I hang out in coffee shops like an addict on the corner.

They could serve the drink in a very small cup, but someone could pour it into a mug and make their ghetto latte anyway.

I also have to take sides with the owner. Afterall, the customer was given the expresso and ice. So, there was no need to write anything nasty on the tip or blog about it. From what the owner mentioned about the drink being mixed with ice, I would not have wanted it for my self. However, we are all different. I still think it was very immature of the customer.

Regardless of the customer's subsequent blog rudeness, I have to say that any store that attempted to tell me what I couldn't do with my coffee after I bought it is not a store I would be going to ever again. So what if the precious molecules in the coffee do this or that or whatever when they hit the ice? If I want to put ketchup in my latte after I've paid for it, then it's none of their business.

(Note: I have never, and will never, knowingly put ketchup in my latte. Figure of speech.)

A shop cannot control what people do with the products they have purchased, but a shop can control what products they sell. In this case, if espresso over ice is not on the menu, the shop is not required to sell it. The shop could choose to sell espresso over ice, but it is not required to because it is not advertising that it does sell it.

I sentence them both to a Hell where they spend eternity with nothing to drink but warm diet coke.

Warm *expired* diet coke, just for humour value.

@The-Tree: AMEN !

Very Well said !

No questions will be answered about the $5 hot chocolate? Really? Not even 'is this safe for my gluten / nut / etc. allergy?'

As an owner he has every right to whatever ridiculous policies, but as a consumer I'll choose to spend my money elsewhere.

Guy wants iced espresso, barista says they don't serve that.
Guy orders an espresso and a cup of ice
Barista gives it to him, and tells him what he's about to do is not cool (I'm guessing the barista figured he was gonna make a ghetto latte).
Guy writes nasty note on the tip
Guy goes home and blogs about the incident, saying that if he comes back it will be with kerosene and matches.
Owner of store replies threatening to punch guy in dick for threatening arson.

You guys can be open and forthright with each other, but you won't get anyone's sympathy acting like children, except maybe other children. Grow up, fellas.

Yes, which is why I always have to qualify "Iced Espresso... not an Americano, don't water it, just espresso over ice." :)

Also, I can understand why they have "cutesy names" for everything but when I ask for a "large iced coffee with a shot of espresso", don't repeat in a condescending tone "Don't you mean 'A Cold Shot in the Dark'?". If I don't see what I'm asking for on 'your' description-less menu board and order in "english", that should be enough. I want to order coffee and get out, not hold up 'your' line for 20 minutes asking "What's that? Uh-huh... and That? Mmmmm and That?" until I discover the mystical combination of words that unlocks my order. I'll listen for what 'you' call out and order it "that way" next time.... if 'your' attitude doesn't turn me off and there IS a next time.

Which makes me wonder if the guy that ordered it did indeed want to make a ghetto latte. Because why would you want a big cup of ice with just a tiny bit of espresso in it?

The barista figured that was what he had planned to do and called him on it.

If you don't like the policy, don't shop there. Certainly don't buy TWO things there. Vote with your wallet if you don't like a store's policies, don't give them your money, act like a jerkoff in the process, and then go vamp on some blog somewhere about how wronged you were.

Silly.

If I want my own piss over ice, I don't need some college dropoutradiohead listening jack kerouac reading barista fag to tell me I cant have it

dude! the owner is awesome! love the comeback! oh also, i think he should have mentioned that they reserve the right to whether serve a guest or not.

This same establishment sells, in wintertime, two versions of hot chocolate -- one for about $3, and another version $5. The $5 version is known as "$5 Hot Chocolate - No questions."

They mean it -- they won't tell you what's in their proprietary ingredients for the hot chocolate or even really let you watch them make it. Really, they won't answer any questions at all about it. Is it the best D$($ hot chocolate I've ever had? Yes. It is worth $5? Probably. Will it lead to some kind of food allergy claim in the future that will put Nick Cho out of business for good -- unpaid taxes or not -- likely.

The coffee there IS really good. Really, really good. The owner is . . . odd. But he makes a great coffee. Just don't ask about the hot chocolate or you might get your dick punched.

@dangermike: Having formerly worked in a coffee shop, oh yes they can leave that milk out and then serve it again. The creamer and milk were in those insulated carafes and at the end of the day if they were half full or more we poured them back into the carton. If there was less than that, we dumped it. I have no idea if this was sanitary or whatever, but for 7 bucks an hour I most certainly didn't give a crap.

Unless it's a policy put in place just to get people to order more expensive drinks because it's either those frakking $15 cups of frakking foofy coffee, a still-overpriced but less expensive cup of regular joe, or the highway.

Personally, I think all coffee tastes like battery acid, so I'm 100% sure I couldn't tell the difference even given all the ascorbic acid explanations that either have a scientific basis or don't.

Oh, and threatening customers and leaving threatening notes in the tip jar? Both asinine and juvenile. Just for the record.

What the childish customer said probably would not qualify as an arson threat (or at least it wouldn't pre-post-9/11-1984-Amerika). It was hyperbole akin go saying "over my dead body". Seriously folks, this is nothing more than a couple of grown men who have the maturity level of 5 year olds having a pissing contest over cup of over-priced coffee and airing all their dirty laundry on the internet.

For various reasons it's probably a good example of how not to act as either a business owner or a customer, but I doubt many of us would be that childish or elitist so it's not really a big deal regardless of who was less wrong.

Oh and Ben, I aggree with you on principle, however, they have the right not to serve a particular product, ie iced esspresso. Just like a restaurant can say no substitutions or a buffet can say, no take out.

Also, in Washington people are very very very very serious about their coffee. And so this whole discussion has to be taken in a slightly different context.

Back on topic: Was this the OP's first time going to Murky coffee (Jeff's blog is refusing to load for me)? If the policy really has been there since 2006, then it seems like he would have known it then, unless an employee was not following the policy.

I'm sorry, but I have to side with the owner on this one. Sure, their policy sucks and I would have just ordered my drink just the way this guy did. Problem is, he lost any credibility he had when he wrote his little phrase on the 'tip'.

Yes, he has the right to free speech and to voice his objection about a ridiculous policy. However, doing it in that way makes any and all arguments he makes null and void. He would have been better served by calling the manager over and having a loud, but logical argument in front of all the guests. If that didn't work, (which we know it likely wouldn't), handing out flyers in front of the store would have been much more useful. Either of these would have much less confrontational and he could have even picked up some supporters of his cause.

If you are going to protect a policy, do it in the right manner. There are plenty of ways of doing it without making yourself looking like a fool.

There's also Ebeneezer's, but that's more toward Union Station - and it's affiliated with the Christian right, or so I've been told. Yuck.

Arguing on the internet is like playing in the special olypics.

Even if you win, you're still a retard.

Appologies.

Espresso is coffee extracted from beans with hot water pumped over at high pressure, making for a thick, strong drink.

There's not much of a way to tell if this guy was planning on making a latte or not.

I like the owner's attitude. It's refreshing to hear a business directly say what it means. Kinda like how that executive at Seagate freely admitted to a tech magazine that he knows most of his company's hard drives are used for porn and that he doesn't care. However, for something as simple as ice with your coffee, I don't think that is too much to ask, even if it does ruin the flavor. It kind of reminds me of Jack Black's character in High Fidelity, driving customers who wanted to buy pop music out of the store.

If it's probably that people "abuse" the free milk and sugar, there's a number of ways to deal with it that don't involve high horses and internet pissing contests. First thing that comes to mind is charging the same amount for iced espresso as for a latte. Or the difference between the two for a cup of ice. If a customer complains, it's easy to explain why the price difference exists. It's WAY better from a customer service standpoint than deriding your and driving away your customers. Or create some kind of metering system where milk and sugar aren't implicitly free, like perhaps some kind of coin operated system or charging for pre-measured aliquots of each. Then, up to 2 or 3 measures could be granted with the purchase of a drink and more than that would up the price.

Ultimately, throwing out the argument that somebody is "doing it wrong" in how they consume what they're purchasing is complete bull. It's not totally inconceivable that someone might actually like the acrid flavors they're trying to prevent (despite its currently waning stature, starbucks create an empire out of what I've always thought was disgustingly acrid brew), and then where does their policy leave them? Unable to hold onto a customer, that's where.

This is similar to the whole receipt checking philosophy--yes, the shop's actions (not selling expresso over ice) helps deter people from taking advantage (ghetto late), but it screws up innocent customers (like the OP) who just want to purchase a product.

By the way, it doesn't really hurt if someone punches your dick; it's your balls that will cause you to scream.

@castlecraver: Do tell. Or link.

"Hey man. What you're about to do … that's really, really Not Okay."

No.... No... you see this is my coffee that I paid for. If I wanted to urinate in it and then paint my walls at home with it, I can.

The thing is Nick, there are these people called customers. Usually when they come into your store they want something. Your ability to make them give you money is solely dependent on you giving them what they need, and providing a nice experience. Do that often enough, and they will come back and give you MORE money. Otherwise (and curse me for saying this) there's a Starbucks across the street that can and will pick up the slack for you.

Don't even get me started on "Ghetto Latte"....

The first time I went it took forever to get my cappuccino, and I was thinking it so wasn't worth it and getting more and more irritated in line, and then I tried it and realized it totally was worth it! Now it's closed, and I think the rumor is that a new espresso shop is opening in its place that's somehow still affiliated with the same owner dude?

Too many great quotes from the owner ... I'd offer him up a terrorist-fist jab, just for the humor.

Seems the reasonable argument here is that the ghetto latte abuses the complimentary dairy product. Why not move the "complimentary" items behind the counter? Charge for a cup of ice, or the cup itself like movie theaters do?

In the end, sounds like everyone in the story deserved to get punched. I'll leave them to their $32 per gallon hot bean water.

The cashier wanted to tell this man what he could not do, rather than offer him an acceptable alternative. Only the corporate hardon of enforcing strict, cold policy could cause a cashier to roll their eyes, and call down a silly, snobby policy, rather than either asking if he would like the Americano, or just ringing it up, since it's basically the same thing.

It may be generalization, but I think it takes a certain type of person to work in a high-class private owned coffee shop. There is a level of exclusivity that they must feel like honored guardians of; and when an uncouth slob comes in, and sodomizes their precious artform, they must defend it.

Businesses make rules for a reason. It is difficult to run a small business when trying to accommodate the demanding needs of customers. If you don't like the way a restaraunt or store is run - just simply move on and don't go there again. If the rule hurts the business more than what implemented the rule, they'll eventually notice.

Thank god the owner didn't give in, I hate when these smug people get their way and think it pays to be a rude inconsiderate person.

(This does not apply to the instances when the business is in the wrong, such as shockingly bad customer service. However, you can assume some of the time you hear those horror stories of bad customer service - it's the customer omitting important details that would shed a little light on the scenario making it not as bad in the first place)

And the "ghetto latte" argument doesn't fly either. If you put cream out as a free condiment, don't get pissed off when people use it. If it's going to be a problem, then don't put it out. Simple as that. Or if you really want to get creative, make the double espresso shot as expensive (or more) than an actual latte. Problem solved.

That would be like someone going into a steakhouse and ordering a porterhouse well done smothered in ketchup, then the chef comes out and says he won't cook it that way. It may be disgusting, but it's what the customer wants. Refusing to sell stuff is a good way to go out of business, which is what murky coffee probably deserves.

[hilltalk.voiceofthehill.com]

Also, I would bet that this guy did intend on making a ghetto latte. He just doesn't want to admit it now, because then he couldn't get all butthurt.

[dcist.com]

I suppose I just put a bullseye on my back. Well, I live in the city that invented pretentious American hipster espresso, so bring it on. :P

First, as an owner, you can serve your coffee however you like and your customer base will be adjusted accordingly. To anyone who says they want it "their way" then this is not the place for you. Refusing to make something a certain way is not uncommon especially in the food industry. It's an image they wish to portray, it's their choice.

Second, as an owner, simply do not give people ice. Let them know ice if simply for the making of drinks that are on the menu, we cannot serve you a cup of ice.

Third, use smaller cups to avoid the ghetto latte and institute a policy that people with mugs can only have them filled.

As a customer, just go elsewhere. Stop pretending that you are granted some inalienable right to tell a business owner how to operate. You aren't. Your inalienable right is the freedom to vote with your wallet and go elsewhere.

As for the financial side of this owner's problems, they are truly irrelevant to the decision making in regards to his in store policies. I would argue that we do indeed need more people like him as customers are simply by and large too full of themselves anymore. A customer who is an asshole should be treated like one.

an an ex-owner of a coffee shop, yes.
however as a consumer, and a consumer SICK of coporate places trying to back peddle and get out of things, I do enjoy Nick's take on the whole situation, his honesty and his openness make the whole article worth reading. I don't drink coffee, never have(weird I know), but I would stop by there for a good morning chai or tea of some kind, and tell him that even though he was a cock, I think what he stands for is refreshing and needed in this world that the pussification of America is in such full force

Guy guess his espresso and ice
Writes FU note on dollar
Owner says don't ever come back or I'll punch you in the dick
Guy says if he ever comes back it will be with kerosene and matches

Because if that's the way it happened it sounds like despite the inconsiderate note on the dollar, the owner threatened to punch him on the dick first.

If you're going to be pedantic at least be correct when you do it, the word ghetto originated in Italy for the neighborhood in Venice in which Jews were forced to live. The Nazi-era use of the term came much later. And the word has continued to evolve, e.g. the modern English usage for poor neighborhoods inhabited by minorities. That's the ghetto referenced in ghetto latte

And I do think ghetto latte has a whiff of racism. I also find it sort of odd since I've only ever seen middle class Asian and white women stir up this particular drink.

This is why I avoid coffee places like this and just make my own at home. I'd rather drink some Dunkin Donuts coffee out of a styrofoam cup than have a bunch of pretentious assholes looking down their noses at me for not ordering in the right lingo.

@opposablethumb: or "team members"--i hate that too!

@Gokuhouse: i used to work somewhere they served coffee products, and they had us serve one shot of espresso in a medium (12 oz) cup and two shots in a large (16 oz) cup. i got the drift that it was similar to the large wine glass, little bit of wine method...maybe has something to do with appreciating all the senses with the fancy product? i didn't really understand it, since actual espresso cups are so tiny, but that's just me!

[W]hen we make our iced coffee, we go through the trouble of brewing it double-strength directly onto ice. If you brew coffee normally and then pour the hot coffee over ice, it results in unpleasant flavors.

Again, not entirely sure why the different technique yields such different results, but it does.

If he's talking in the first part about brewing double-strength as opposed to normally, and he doesn't know why it tastes different, then he's an idiot. If he meant double-strength in both cases, then I'm calling bullshit. What's the difference between brewing into a cup with ice and brewing into another container and then pouring it over the ice, provided that it's brewed fresh when ordered?

And people complain that Starbucks baristas are snobby! Does this guy see the Soup Nazi as a role model or what?

Worse than a can of Kerosene is sending in Starbucks lady from the iPhone 3G story. Send her in. She'll ass-bump someone!

Exactly so. At least not that coffee shop stuff. Now if you chew the grounds like they did in the Civil War, well then you have your man status back. ;)

In all seriousness, both are wrong and both are jackasses. Epic Fail on both sides.

As far as the racist question,

ghetto: A section of a city where the Nazis forced all Jews to live. A ghetto was often sealed off with walls, barbed wire and armed guards...

Nothing about cheap people, poor people. It's a stupid term, but it's not really racist.

You know what ruins the integrity of the product? Pretty much everything that happens to it after you drink it. Actually, products don't have integrity; people do. Even though all the people in this story think they have integrity, they're all wrong.

If I lived in the DC area, the first thing that I would do is go to his shop and order an Iced Espresso!

I understand that it's there policy, but honestly, it doesn't even make good business sense to allow your customers to purchase the coffee of their choice (if available) in a coffee shop.

@Metropolis: " This guy probably could have went to ten other coffee shops in stones throw.
"

Yep. I used to work in that neighborhood, and from where that dude was standing, he was less than a 10 minute walk from: a Starbucks at Arlington Common, another Starbucks at Courthouse Plaza, the Cosi/Xando store near Clarendon & Courthouse, Java Shack at Wilson & Franklin, and Olsson's Books on Wilson, which has a coffee bar.

@puka_pai:

Orwell referred to it as "Newspeak" ...

They are feel good utternaces and misappropriated words used to twist the real meaning.

I'm not a guest. I'm a customer. There's a difference. Guests don't pay, but customers do.

We used to joke at a store I worked in that there was only one kind of business where this was true. Actually, there's two, if you count the hotel business.

Referring to customers as "guests" is one of the most offensive things that's ever happened to retailing. Retailers seem to think that if they use feel-good, but ultimately deceptive, terminology it will make extracting money from them a little easier. The same goes for referring to clerks as "associates". It's just obfuscation of the real retailer/customer relationship.

You have my undying gratitude for this! I can spew corporate bullshit with the best of them, but I'm so glad to see someone who sees it for the nonsense it is. Changing my job name isn't going to fool me that my paycheck is any bigger, Corporate Overlords.

@danger the pirate:

It says I didn't spell check ...

BUT,

it makes you a grammer nazi :-)

IANAL but I believe use of force is justified in the face of the threat of arson. I'm not sure how efficient a dick-punch is though...

"I thought coffee would be up my alley, because I'm a people person."
But now he's also alone. His haphazard approach to finances has cost him his marriage, he said.

He's a people person. I totally see that.

Thanks for posting that, misterdisco. Great article.

"Congrats, you're all winners."

I think what you mean here is "Congrats, you're all weiners."

Coffee really brings out the best in people.

And his attitude is - it's no big deal, it's just a little financial mismanagement, it's really all about the coffee.

This country does NOT need more businessmen of this ilk

But I wonder what would have happened if he ordered a no-water Americano?

@AMetamorphosis: "Their both idiots." and whats that say about you?

i love the internet! spelling and grammar errors abound!

dick-punching and blog duels everywhere! humanity wins!!!

Even though the story never mentioned he was planning on adding tons of milk or whatever (and if he was, then that sounds like a different topic) - but just because the owner does not like the taste of coffee poured over ice does not mean that everyone else has the same sort of taste - so in my opinion if that is the reason, if the customer wants bad tasting drink - then they owner should sell it to them.

As for the dairy bar & people abusing it, heck - I would think they should keep all that stuff behind the counter and add that stuff for an additional cost. That is my opinion about that. Sit the stuff out as a free then some people will take advantage of it - heck, for many years in collage I never had to buy a bottle of ketchup at home because of the wonderful world of free packets.

The owner says that customers who were making the ghetto latte added 8-14 ounces of milk to their espresso over ice orders...My main question is this, how is there that much left over room in their cups? Was the owner was giving those customers two cups or very large cups? I can understand making a policy where you wouldn't give someone an extra "ice" cup or a larger cup than needed. Just make sure when you poor the espresso over ice you don't put it in a cup where the customer has the ability to add 8-14 ounces of milk or creamer or whatever. I'm sure the number of customers bringing in their own cups wouldn't be so large that they would take away a big enough profit from the shop.

This story is amazing - and hilarious. It's like a very rude and potentially violent episode of Seinfeld.

I'm not a guest. I'm a customer. There's a difference. Guests don't pay, but customers do. Referring to customers as "guests" is one of the most offensive things that's ever happened to retailing. Retailers seem to think that if they use feel-good, but ultimately deceptive, terminology it will make extracting money from them a little easier. The same goes for referring to clerks as "associates". It's just obfuscation of the real retailer/customer relationship.

This may also be stated: entitled dickwad + snobby douchenozzle = blogfight! Somebody bring the popcorn.

Im with the owner on this one. Its his shop if he doesnt want to sell/give out cups of ice its his policy. Sometimes I feel people on this blog think they deserve special treatment because they choose to shop some place. This guy probably could have went to ten other coffee shops in stones throw.

This guys gets some "bad" customer service and is a little pissed about their coffee policy.

So he makes a threat of burning the place downs and writes a snide comment on the dollar bill as a tip. Then goes posts on his blog how's he's "rebelling" "bad businesses" and expects admiration and support from the community?

This dude needs to GROW A PAIR OF BALLS.

@coan_net: The owner is saying that hot espresso over ice is bad because it makes bad flavors. Americano is ok because pouring into tepid water doesn't form those compounds, or whatever.

Sounds like a load of BS to me, but, if it's true, then the customer would have gotten a nasty cup of iced espresso and at that point it would be a blog post about how horrible the coffee at Murky Coffee is.

If I had a restauraunt and my reputation for good food is a priority and a customer asks for mustard to add to his pancakes, I'd probably not want him to do it for fear that it would reflect poorly on the pancakes.

Of course, it's mostly about keeping people from making ghetto lattes, so, I'm just a 799 lb. elephant in the room.

I used to work for a snowboard shop called "Cool Runnings" outside of Philadelphia. In addition to snowboards, we also sold clothes and skateboards. Once, a customer came in looking for those mini-skis that make doing ski-tricks easier. I told him that we don't sell "fruit-booters," as was the common name for them. Angrily, he demanded the owner, Jaime, and asked him for the mini-skis.

Jaime replied, "I am sorry, sir, we don't sell fruit-booters."

The guy left in astonishment. Although Jaime's a professional and would never threaten to punch a customer in the dick for liking "fruit-booters," he nonetheless chose to run his business as he felt it should be run.

The moral of the story? Don't drink Coffee, it's for girly men.

It's a modern-day duel. It's so amazingly pointless on both sides, and I love it.

This is ridiculous.

The owner is a penny-pinching coffee elitist.

While I will say it's childish on both sides with the threats of coffee-immolation and dick-punching I side with Jeff, he just wanted his coffee the way he likes it and Murky Coffee wasn't able to provide it the way he did.

Why it is that putting your latte on ice is "really, really not okay" is beyond me. I'd like to bring up something that is "really, really not okay."
Rape. Rape is really really not okay. Putting your latte on ice is just not that big of a deal.

I agree the customer isn't always right, but that doesn't mean the owner should be such an elitist prick.

@coan_net: i think for people that actually give a damn about what they serve, it really does ruin the integrity of their product. kind of like taking a piss on a good steak. i don't even drink coffee because it's already ruined for me, but i can see why the owner was so passionate about it. i can also see why the purchaser was dismayed to be told not to drink it the way he liked it--who does have the right to tell you how to correctly consume something you bought?

eh, man drama!

It's friggin' coffee ...

The owners a snob.
The customers rude.

Their both idiots.

You'll get what I give you, and you'll like it. Nice.
Jobs like this would be great if it wasn't for the customers.
I can't take a side in this one. I wonder what will replace "Murky Coffee" when it goes under?

This is strange for me, but yeah, I'm siding with Nick here. Jeff was acting childish ('I didn't get what I wanted, I'm gonna kick and scream') and threatening arson, which is illegal. I'm sure he wouldn't actually do it, but Nick is just being better safe then sorry.

@coan_net: It actually loses them money because while yes, ice is extremely cheap, and yes, coffee is more expensive than ice, dairy is much much more expensive than both. Coffee really isn't all that expensive.

@Veeber: First paragraph in the linked post on his blog:

"Maybe condescending service from a patronizing millenial at a DC coffee shop isn't news to anyone else. But the only way I'm ever coming back to Murky Coffee in Arlington is if I'm carrying matches and a can of kerosene."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

This was Eastern Market's hipster coffee shop - and although I like the little guy infinitely more than the chains, I would get my fix from Port City Java simply because the staff was nice, product was superior, and I didn't have to deal with self-entitled staff anytime I needed caffeine.

I think it's Nick that needs punched in the dick.

Not only is this guy on a seemingly steroid-fueled power trip, but he's also an expert on civil rights.

Seems like the customer instigated this one, and while I don't approve of dick-punching in general, I think the customer is wrong, and I dig the honesty on the part of the owner.

Rude customer gets cockpunched. Film at eleven.

I'm no Nick's side. He's the owner/manager and he can make up whatever rules he wants as long as they're not illegal. Nick was also very reasoned in his response.

Jeff can choose to buy coffee there or not.

Besides, threatening to punch someone in the d*ck is so low-brow, but absolutely hilarious.

Well first, I did google "ghetto latte" - which is basicly a drink where people will add their own dairy condiment (milk, half & half, etc...)

So what does that have to do with getting a coffee over ice?

I would think the store would MAKE MORE MONEY since ice (water) will take more room in the glass - meaning that they will use LESS of the more expensive coffee.

So why would the store not want to do that - nor care if a customer does this after they sold it. (since I would think they would have also charged for a glass of ice also)

I hope this guy goes out of business like the 600 starbucks.

arson? When did Jeff mention arson?

That's funny. Sophomoric, but funny.