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Sue? Yes. Sue. Jeeze, at the very least, they should have offered medical + a new gun :/
Sue? Yes. Sue. Jeeze, at the very least, they should have offered medical + a new gun :/
WOW!! An unsafe gun...
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-391434-100x100.png\")
Guess the guy didn't know his own strength. Based on this, I'll never buy a F'n product, either. Well, maybe the F'n poncho.
It's not guns that kill people...
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-203062-100x100.png\")
wow i want one.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-116400-100x100.png\")
Cue gun hating crowd in 5, 4, 3, 2...
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-94321-100x100.png\")
Fabrique Nationale de Herstal, more often abbreviated as Fabrique Nationale or simply FN, is a Belgian manufacturer of firearms. The official company name is FN Herstal. FN is a subsidiary of the Herstal Group. Herstal also owns the U.S. Repeating Arms Company(Winchester) and Browning Arms Company(an American gun company founded by John Moses Browning's family). Together these divisions form the Herstal Group.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-103766-100x100.png\")
F3rr37 sough medical attention and two days later contacted Five-seveN customer support
Hmmmm. I always question the time frames, just as the attorneys do in trial.
Ash78 sough medical attention and called Five-seveN customer support from the ER to bitch them out and demand a settlement
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-17799-100x100.png\")
He's lucky that's all that happened to his hand. I had a great-uncle who lost an eye due to a shotgun blowing up in his face.
FWIW, that handgun looks like a cheap piece of plastic crap. By \"destroy it\" is FN going to leave it on the dashboard on a sunny day with the windows up? That should do the trick.
Be careful about sending it back.
If they do destroy it and you later decide to sue them (I'm imagining for product liability), the one key piece of evidence would have been destroyed. The fact that they told you that they would destroy the gun might negate any argument of spolation (e.g., destruction of evidence. See [en.wikipedia.org]).
Consult a lawyer on this one.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-93244-100x100.png\")
\"...the Five-seveN's ammunition is designed to hit, travel a few inches, then tumble end over end without deforming. This means that the wound it creates would be as tall as the length of the projectile (more than 21 mm), supposedly creating a more grievous wound channel, but without the expansion of a hollow point or the fragmentation of a frangible bullet.\"
Lovely thought.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-349924-100x100.png\")
Five-seveN said they were sending out a pre-paid packing slip for the gun and would inspect it, destroy it, and give f3rr37 a \"deep discount\" on a new gun.
Wow! You can mail a gun, even a broken one? I had no idea.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-37033-100x100.png\")
I wonder if airport metal detectors will pick up the piece of shrapnel in his hand?
I believe this is the same handgun involved in the Marvin Harrison incident. What a weird coincidence.
I'm curious to the fact the he will spread his experience and claim that this incdident was cause by \"firing out-of-battery\".
I understand the guy is waiting for some compensation, but saying that the cause of the problem is something you hypothesize...doesn't that make you look dumb?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-131723-100x100.png\")
I'm glad nothing worse happened than just his hand.
They definitely ought to at least pay for his medical. It looks like there are stitches in his thumb and the side of his hand.
@exkon: Not when his experience (and those of others) lend credibility to his hypothesize. Not like these guys are once in a blue moon gun users. It's like saying someone thinking that their car engine's spark plug misfiring is what is causing their car issue, a dumb hypothesize, simply because they are not the manufacturer.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1471-100x100.png\")
@mergatroy6: You can mail mangled pieces of metal and composite, for sure. You cannot mail a functioning handgun without being LE or a dealer. I worked for a Fedwral agency, and we mailed firearms to field offices all the time via FedEx in locked shipping containers. Pellican cases to be exact.
@BloggyMcBlogBlog: It is, and the price of them shot up after that.
Essentially, the selling point of this particular gun, and it's automatic counterpart, the P90, is that they have 40% less felt recoil than a standard 9mm firearm. They're made from the same composite that almost all other manufacturers use. Glock being the first, and rapidly followed by everyone else.
I carried a composite firearm for many years, and never once had an issue through thousands upon thousands of practice rounds. It was a Beretta, though.
FN sells \"57\" models to specialized units, and the pistols to the public. The ammo is expensive, and the pistols are rare in a general sense. Mostly only collectors buy them. There are many agencies who will not buy composite firearms at all, and stick with Beretta and SiG all metal full size models. There are also agencies who only use Glock (my former agency was one of those). It's mostly a personal preference.
However, the big difference is that agency firearms are on a life cycle and are destroyed or transferred after a service life. Private weapons aren't. It's unknown if this guy has put 10K rounds through this or what condition the gun was in. Not saying it was his fault - just some unknowns.
In general, one would think after this happened that FN would be interested in his case from an engineering standpoint. However, they may not be interested from a liability standpoint.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-52601-100x100.png\")
I really hate seeing news like this one......as it scares the crap out of me the next time I reach for my FiveSeven.
It is terrible how FN customer care dealt with this issue and hope they get flamed for this mistake....do they need a dead body before putting in some serious investigation into this?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-205377-100x100.png\")
Okay, so these people specialize in items that kill people and you think they give a sh&t about you?
@Ash78: 2 days is quite reasonable in this case Ash; the failure happened on a Saturday so Monday would be the first business day.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-128001-100x100.png\")
@AlexJP: Excellent advice, but if I read the article correctly he was treating the gun like it was loaded, because he loaded it:
\"On the 2nd round I realigned my sights, slowly pulled the trigger, and all hell broke loose.\"
That reads to me like he wasn't mishandling a seemingly empty gun, but that he was at a firing range using it when it backfired (Please excuse me if that's not the correct term. All I know about guns is that they go \"pew-pew\" when you are picking off bad guys in the middle of your high-speed car chase.).
Anyway, his hand looks like it hurts like hell, and no product should do that when you use it, weapon or not.
And for the person who criticized the timeline of events, what would be a non-suspicious timing? Certainly not if he called the manufacturer before getting medical treatment? Two days seems like a reasonable amount of time to wait for a non-life-threatening injury.
@TechnoDestructo:
I think that if the guy has shrapnel in his hand, he will need a doctor's note to show airport security. This is what they do for people with metal plates in their bodies.
The only requirement for shipping firearms is that they be unloaded and that they go to an FFL holder (usually an 03 or 01. 03's can only receive C&R guns). And USPS will only ship rifles, not hanguns. You have to use UPS or FedEx. You don't (usually) have to be a dealer to ship a firearm. It may vary by state, though.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-179969-100x100.png\")
@ Consumerist: as noted earlier in the thread, the company is FN Herstal, FiveseveN is a product line.
@ f3rr37: Regardless of how much experience the reloader has, 90% of the civilian firearms accidents I've seen have involved reloads. IMHO, saving a few bucks by reusing spent brass is not worth the danger.
Second, you're lucky that you still have all your fingers -- a LEO friend of mine witnessed a Glock 19 kaBoom! on a federal range -- the user was left with five fingers, total.
Nasty !KB, that.. Hope he's ok.
@sharkd: He did load his own bullets, and I agree that doing that with his twice fired brass can cause a problem.
Also, after looking at his pictures, I have to say he has/had a horrible cleaning regimen. His injuries look almost necrotic in some photos.
sounds more like a double shot of powder on his reloads.
@sharkd: I'll second you on the reloads comment...If you have to save cash, buy surplus, not reloads. I can understand why collectors reload, having odd weapons and all, but some people reload 9mm and 12ga!
Also to note, I dislike the FiveseveN, mostly because of it's civilian counterpart, the PS-90...having this toy is worthless, because it's a carbine meant to be shot automatic. In semi-auto, it's an inaccurate house clearing gun, with expensive as hell ammo
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-95687-100x100.png\")
That's a pretty bad malfunction there, but it could have been worse. Good thing f3rr37 was no doubt wearing eye protection. I always go shooting with my prescription safety glasses and hearing protection.
FN is being total asshats about the whole situation though. Alot of other firearms makers will bend over backwards for you so you don't talk to the media or a lawyer.
The use of composites isn't neccessarily a bad thing. A friend of mine bought a Taurus .45 and only the frame and grip are composite, everything else is metal, and its overall a nice pistol.
@sharkd:
Yea when I read this before first thing I thought of was him using some reloads.
I have mixed feelings here. One I agree it looks like a out-of-battery malfunction(I've seen a few) but I'm sure FN like every other vendor voids the warranty when you throw a reload in the weapon. Can't really blame them because reloads cause a lot of issues when people do them wrong.
Personaly unless FN is going to replace the weapon I wouldn't be giving it back to them. Not sure what FN's warranty is but as I said I'm sure he voided it.
Guy is just lucky to have his hands.
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Now it's MY turn to be a gun n00b:
What is an \"out-of-battery\" malfunction?
I just read the actual article link and without even getting into the \"meat\" of it could see his problem. RELOADED CARTRIDGES.
Many people just don't get that just because their father reloaded everything years ago does not mean they can today. Many \"brass\" cases used today are cheaper, weaker, and often not even made of brass to save money in production. Most of the time they are not designed to be reloaded and even say so on the box. Then there are the large amount of people that think they can reload and do it wrong or try to beef up their shots with as much powder as they possibly can.
My dad buys, refurbishes, and sell guns for a living and you cannot believe the amount of guns we have seen completely ruined from a bad reload being fired though it, even from those that claim to be experts.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-22777-100x100.png\")
@savvy9999: The Five-seveN is actually a renowned handgun, and is extremely popular with secret service agents, FYI.
It's not practical for civilian use, though, because the ammo is damned expensive.
False. You CAN mail a handgun without being LE or a dealer, it just has to be going back to the manufacturer or to a dealer and has to go through common carrier (UPS, FedEx, etc.) as the USPS will only ship rifles and shotguns.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-16563-100x100.png\")
Well no wonder the gun misfired. Some damned fool sawed the chamber in half!
This is why I prefer using my green Power Ring instead.
My excuse is I live in NY so can someone explain what an out of battery malfunction is.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-160557-100x100.png\")
This is as stupid as smokers trying to sue cigarette makers for lung cancer.
@Orv: I believe that was shielding them from liability for what people DID with the guns, i.e., shooting up a school, the ex wife, etc... But I could be wrong.
he can try to sue FN, but he's never going to get past the issue of the reloads.
FN is going to say it is his fault and he was shooting defective reloaded cartridges... and how is he going to prove otherwise?
@ninjatales: You do remember that cigarette's used to be marketed as safe, with doctors recommending them, right?
What is not told in this story is the inexperience this person has at reloading and how he reloads ignoring safety warnings and published data on the 5.7
He has tied with a couple of so called experts that are trying to protect their business of reloading that are overloading what is considered a maxed out round by established professionals in the business of loading ammunition Ramshot and Acurate Powder.
FN warns not to use reloads and will not accept any responsibility if reloads are used.
This rounds pressures exceed 45,000 psi which is huge and a few other handguns reach around these pressures but they are Pistols made of steel and are heavy duty while this gun is one of the Tupperware class of todays guns
Yet he ignores warnings and uses the backyard reloading duo reloading data to do his reloads which appear to be dangerous.
If you choose to do your own research be aware the FN Forum is not the place to do it, it is bias as one of the main contributors are selling reloaded ammo and have a vested interest in selling their product there, so the last thing they want is to be known that it is not a safe round to play around with. They would prefer it be all FN fault.
An \"Out of Battery\" malfunction is when the weapon fires and the slide (or bolt) is not fully closed. Essentially the pressure of the round is not contained properly and all sorts of hot and fast things go in improper directions.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-3241-100x100.png\")
@howie_in_az: Cue really, really insecure people with persecution complex in.. dammit, you beat me to it!
@hypochondriac: Firing a round out of battery basically means that somehow, the round is not fully seated into the chamber when you fire the weapon.
When rounds go into the chamber, it is basically fully encased in the thick metal barrel, so that the energy from the gunpowder has only one way out (by pushing the bullet out of the barrel). If you have a round \"out of battery\" some of the brass could be exposed out of the barrel, and as brass is fairly thin and weak, the energy from the powder can break through in that way.
I've had a friend's glock fire out of battery -- basically ruined the composite frame, and the magazine shot out the bottom. He was fortunately unscathed. I don't recall if that was a reload, but it certainly scared him straight.
Five-seveNs are made by Fabrique Nationale.
That's about the normal damage for an exploding gun... it happens rarely but regularly. That one is the most damaged handgun I've ever seen from that though. Typically it happens when the shell casing explodes inside the gun.
Some will tell you it's a Glock thing because they do a poor job supporting the cartridge in the chamber. Most \"combat\" handguns don't support it very well. It's not just Glocks by any means; I've seen it in SiGs, Desert Eagles (which have PERFECT support so much so it's hard to chamber a round if it's dusty,) 1911s, and even an M1 Garand.
It's often caused by people who reload their old brass and either use it until it's far too distressed (rare in handguns IMO) or they simply accidentally put a double load of powder in. The latter is actually easy to do if you're loading hundreds at a time on an automated press and something interrupts you. Some powders take up so little room it wouldn't really overflow with 2x loaded. It also happens with crappy factory ammo, and probably the odd time with good commercial stuff.
Also, what he said.
To me the most shocking news since I've been out of the loop for a while is that there are 5.7mm guns available to the public... I thought they only made armor piercing rounds but that must have changed... So... is there a semiauto P90 yet? :3
I'll third the comment on reloads, but why didn't this guy buy a real gun like a CZ or a Glock?
The 5.7 is different system then others and when fired the slide is already moving out of battery while the pressures are still very high.
It appears this is in the design and that is why there are so many warnings about this round.
People just have to read and adhere to the warnings instead of thinking they know more then the manufacture.
If you do not want a gun to fire in this manner, don't buy one! instead there are those that will ignore and do it anyways.
I am truly sorry about this fellow being harmed but we must take stock in our own actions.
Just use the tool the way it was designed to be used.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-51884-100x100.png\")
@lotusangel42: My grandfather used to enjoy freaking security out by not telling them about his fake hip or knees until after they'd given him a thorough going-over. (Of course, he was a rude, stupid bastard, I don't recommend this as a matter of course.) He didn't need a doctor's note at the time (~1990) but I don't doubt rules have changed.
@secretoftheeast: Thanks, I'm actually considering purchasing a handgun myself for home protection in case of a breakin(not a huge concern but just in case ) but don't know much about them.
A \"real\" handgun is so subjective, I could say the same thing about a Glock or CZ. Here's mine, Why didn't he just go get a 1911?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-151293-100x100.png\")
@Kos:
ABSOLUTELY what I was about to say. Them wanting you to send in the gun is them wanting to get rid of any evidence that they're culpable. Do NOT send then gun in if you plan to sue, which I would consider even more seriously since they're apparently not \"taking it seriously\" themselves. The only compensation they're offering is a \"discount\" towards another of their products? Puh-lease! I'd say it's lawsuit time.
This is quite disturbing indeed, especially when you consider that the U.S. military uses FN products (e.g. M-16, M-4, M-249, et al)
@Git Em SteveDave: True. It's also true that firearms are not subject to the same health and safety regulations which govern pretty much anything else the general public can conceivably buy.
That is, there is no Consumer Product Safety Commission for guns. In fact, the Consumer Product Safety Commission itself is prohibited by law from imposing safety standards on guns. However, I do think a couple of states have enacted minimum standards for safety and quality.
That said, the overall lack of consumer regulation regarding guns applies to domestically manufactured arms much moreso than foreign ones. Ergo, the injured party in this case may have some sort of recourse with the importer. [The whole reloading issue notwithstanding.] He might even have better luck suing in Italy!
@hypochondriac: Take a handgun training course. The obvious safety tips are there (always treat it as if it is loaded, always point down range, etc), but good ones will teach you safe ways to store and clean your firearm, as well.
Also, find a range nearby that rents out firearms, and try firing them. I could rave all day about a CZ-75, but you may not like it. Meanwhile, a lot of people love Glocks, but I can't stand the more severe grip angle on them.
Do a little checking around, and decide from that what to buy. You're looking for home defense, but I assume you'd want to do some plinking with it to keep in practice. I'd suggest any 9mm, but again, only your own experience with them will tell you what to buy. Go to a range, find some friendly gun dealers (particularly at gun shows), and as long as you're safe and smart, you'll find a great firearm and have a good time.
There is NO question in my mind that the gun fired out of battery, and by a big margin.
If you look at the blown-up shell, the \"business end\" where the bullet comes out is \"blown straight\" - in other words, this shell started out \"skinny\" where the thinner bullet backs into the bigger shell, but the shells constriction at the end (called the \"neck\") was blown wide open to the same width as the rest of the shell.
And THAT means this guy's handloads weren't to blame.
If you look at the pics somebody else took later of an intact specimen of this gun, they show that the gun can drop it's hammer with the slide (and hence the bullet) significantly back.
Guys, there's an \"interlock\" that's supposed to prevent this. The gun isn't supposed to be able to fire until the slide is either fully forward or at worst back by a millimeter or two.
NOT a quarter of an inch.
I think this guy has a legit complaint that FN is going to pass off as being ammo-related.
This whole issue is one reason I own revolvers :).
@exkon: He will just say \" I was using gun X and the thing blew up in my hand!\"
explination or not, that will surely make people think twice before buying one.
@hypochondriac: admitting you know little about guns, and then thinking about buying one for protection is a bad idea. The vast majority of people mentally cant handle shooting another person (I dont care what people say online its true) and also will panic when it is time to use the gun and may end up misfiring and injuring them selves or others.I believe people who want to own a gun should be forced to go through a lot of training before ownership is allowed. its easier to get a carry permit then it is to get a drivers license.
I just want to point out that this gun and its ammunition were designed solely for the purpose of defeating body armor.
@xtc46:
Pretty much. A CWP is pretty easy to get in a lot of states. I also agree that one needs to do some training when they get a gun. I've seen a few people that will get one for \"safety\" and they don't even know how to clean it. When I got my first gun I spent a good 30 minutes in the store going over it with the stores manager about cleaning it and what not. I then met up with my dad who went through it with me and took me to the range for a refresher course in guns since it was my first handgun. Took some range pratice then took a class.
I've been in the situtation with a knife before where I needed to use it. I feel I could do the same with a gun easy(and have come close to having to pull mine out before). A lot of people will end up panicing and it will end up hurting them though.
This forum really is not the best place to talk about guns though. From the posts a lot of people don't really know anything about them other then that that shoot bullets.
Seems like a lot of us here that own guns all took a look at that mention or reloading right away and knew the chances are high the guy fucked up.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-387761-100x100.png\")
It's nice to see that guns are starting to kill the people who are using them, rather than the bystanders.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-14720-100x100.png\")
@Claystil:
That is pretty misleading. Civilians cannot buy the 'armor piercing' ammunition, that is strictly for military and law enforcement.
And just about any hunting rifle can pierce body armor.
Ok, this is how it works. If you own a gun and it breaks as shown above when you followed all instructions, the manufacturer will replace the gun, cover medical expenses, recover the gun for analysis, and send a replacement to you. I had a friend go through this with a handgun when the slide broke in half one day.
EXCEPTION: If you ever use reloaded (handloaded) ammunition, the warranty is immediately void. Handloading ammunition is done to recycle used brass and save money, and with a gun like this the savings are quickly realized, thus making such a venture vs voiding your warranty pretty appealling. Unfortunately, when you handload, you need to follow very precise instructions, lest you pour too much explosive powder into a case to the point that the explosion cannot be contained by the gun. This is almost certainly what happened here. Thus I will go ahead and use reloaded ammunition in my range guns, but NEVER in my carry guns. I carry a (gun owners, you guessed it) a Beretta Px4. Only factory ammunition goes into it. It has never failed me in any way even after thousands of rounds of bullets sent downrange. I know that should I ever need to (God forbid) use it to protect myself or innocents from death or serious injury, it will do what it is designed to do.
To give a parallel example, when I take my home computer and push the processor beyond its specs (overclocking it), the warranty is void. I can't go crying to Intel or AMD when the processor starts to crack, bubble, catch fire, or explode (yes, this can happen. Serious overclocking is not for the weak of heart.)
Long story short. Read the manual and follow it, especially in devices that are designed to focus lots of power in one place. FN is being generous in giving you a discount on a new gun.
I personally own a fiveseven, and i think the whole problem is that he must of used a reload
that means he made his own bullets with his own setup, so the ammo he used wasnt the kind you can buy at a store, so if it blows up, then yah its his fault for not using factory ammo, there are risks with using your ammo, and well this is one of them.
actually a civilian CAN buy armor piercing ammo, from ANOTHER civilian, it cannot be bought from a store etc. (your not supposed to make it yourself either!)
@JimMarch:
This is assuming it fired out of battery, which we still do not know. FN should hurry up and look at this thing with no destruction precondition. The feet dragging is inexcusable.
First, I have had several case failures inside the chamber that split the case and ripped it apart in a manner similar to the pictures above. In other words, the failure may not have been an out of battery fire.
Second, if it was an out of battery fire it was likely out of battery because his RELOADS were not sized right. Firing reloads is shooting on borrowed time.
If the 5.7 fires out of battery far enough back to cause that, it is a design issue.
My 5.7 does not fire out of battery if if the cartridge is out of the chamber at all, and I mean at all. however, the delayed blowback system moves the entire assembly back about 2mm; this allows some wiggle room if the gun were pressed against something while keeping the cartridge fully chambered.
I carry my 5.7 every day as my primary carry piece. I just cannot say no to a 20 round mag, a 30 round mag backup and 2500 FPS 55 grain bullets. 3000 rounds with zero malfunctions so far.
By the way, despite the fact that I am a revolver fan, revolvers have their share of design problems and easy user errors too! [www.3dshoots.com]
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-236523-100x100.png\")
Agree with you completely. Claystil is either being sensationalistic or doesn't know much about guns. I always cringe when I hear newsreporters or others go on about how easy it is to get armor-piercing or \"cop-killer\" bullets. One of the 1st signs they don't have any authentic experience with guns and haven't gone into a gun store asking for them...
And yep, even most hunting rifles can penetrate common grade body armor. It doesn't have to be a so-called \"assault weapon\".
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-27305-100x100.png\")
guns don't hurt people...people...oh wait.
Ludocaine/orajel FTW!
I'll stick with Smith & Wesson, which is about 15 miles away from where I live.
@hypochondriac: Don't buy a handgun unless you're willing to take the training and then keep up with practice and be proficient using it.
Your better bet is a shotgun with a pistol grip and the shortest barrel and widest choke that's legal. You'll just need to point it in the mope's general direction, rather than worry about accuracy.
@kaizoku80: Right. Person to person is what I was referencing.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-18124-100x100.png\")
When comes to a product like this, I'll let others do the field testing for about 25-30 years and stick with the ol' P220 in the meanwhile.
@Elvisisdead: If you think you don't have to aim a shotgun, I suggest you google \"box o truth\" and read the shotgun section.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-51496-100x100.png\")
The gun exploded and injured his hand and he wants another one??
I would be shopping for a new gun from a different manufacturer with all my law suit money.
@SavitaPelias: Correction, the AR-15 family of rifles (The M4, and M16) were developed by Armalite who then sold the designs to Colt Firearms. Colt Produces the M4 and M16 for the military. Though you are correct that FN Herstal produces the M249 SAW.
@Claystil: .30 caliber is a much more common rifle bore and the ammo is much cheaper and the weapons that fire .30 are much cheaper to purchase. They can easily pierce Kevlar and even bullet-resistant lexan like it wasn't even there (well, a .30-30 might have some trouble with the Lexan since it has a more blunt tip). As others have stated, the 5.7 Armor piercing rounds are only available from firearms dealers that sell only to law enforcement and military. What few might make it on the black market would most likely be too expensive for your typical street thug to get ahold of anyway assuming they could even afford the weapon itself. I'd also reckon that more police officers have been killed by .38 and 9mm than an oddball round like the 5.7mm.
@lawnmowerdeth: It's FAR easier to conceal a handgun, right? And if you want the armor piercing ammo bad enough, you can get it.
@ZukeZuke: Ok, first, I have a lot of experience with guns, and perhaps more experience than you with ammo. I've been offered illegal ammo at gun shows simply by showing interest in particular ammo's. That's without even knowing people. I'm sure you can get the armor piercing bullets for this with some simple networking or some good luck.
@MrEvil: I'm familiar with ballistics. Like I said, the two most important issues here are the ability to conceal a FiveseveN vs. a hunting rifle and the fact that yes, if you look hard enough you can get the ammo. Especially if you're involved in drug trafficking and sit around with loads of cash and want it simply to shoot at your be-vested co-thug in a club or what not.
Look, I was making stating a fact and you guys come out of the woodwork going on about how this weapon's characteristics aren't that special. I never argued they were.
@evilhapposai: I am in total agreement that reloaded rounds was this guy's problem.
I reload shotgun shells myself, and have never had a problem there as long as I precisely followed the \"recipe.\" I intend to try conservative reloading of .45ACP and .30-06. I will NEVER try reloading anything like .40, or even 9mm Luger.
The reason reloading .40, 5.7, and the like is a bad idea, I feel, is case pressure. The FiveseveN is *really* pushing the envelope (50,000 psi when fired); the .40 comes close around 40,000. The .30-06 of course is high also, but you're shooting it out of a rifle, which has a chamber orders of magnitude stronger than those found on pistols. .45, meanwhile, generates a more tame 21,000 psi - the room for error is much more substantial, and so I think your risk of blowing up the gun is much lower as long as you are not trying to \"hot-load.\"
So I agree with you completely in this case, and in part when it comes to reloading in general. Rounds like 5.7 should NOT be reloaded, and this is exactly why.
The reason, I suspect, FN is telling him to get bent is they've learned that he was shooting reloads. Any gun purchased today will be rife with warnings that reloaded ammo voids the warranty, manufacturer's liability, etc. It's a risk some people are willing to take, and done safely and correctly it can reap benefits beyond simply saving on rounds. But on a 5.7, a bottle-necked pistol round? Sheesh.
I don't care how good his equipment was, this guy was asking for it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-21229-100x100.png\")
Whether or not the reload caused the out of battery is probably moot as it still voids the warranty, making restitution from the manufacturer problematic at best. Or at least a much lengthier process.
From the picts shown this is also one of the older style 5.7's, like a IOM . The thing is the older 5.7s were not for sale to the public, law enforcement and Military only. You can tell by the grips and the goofy trigger guard.The current 5.7 usg ( same standard that the secret service use and other gov agencies) Have some major differences with this damaged Pre IOM. I would like to know how he got his hands on it if he was not a gun dealer.
The ammo for the 5.7 is all made by FN and as stated very expensive, and the gun it self is very expensive too ( $900( normally $1100) +, vs $480 for glock 17's and 19's). If he was using reloads , that is just kind a stupid. It's like running 87 octane in a modern race car. You just don 't do it....
FN also produces the M-16 family under license in Canada (as thr C7 and its shorter cousin the c8). They are essentially in between the M-16A1 and A2 - basicall all of the A2 improvements except the full auto of the A1 (ie lieu of burst).
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-257103-100x100.png\")
I read a few pages from that FN forum, am I not understanding something here? This guy says that the gun's hammer will drop if the bullet is not completely in the battery. Kind of like a bolt not completely closing. But this guy is only able to duplicate the situation by pulling back the slide and \"slowly creeping the slide forward\"? Is slowly manipulating the slide forward representative of real world use?
It sounds like the round didn't completely cycle into the chamber, maybe the brass was expanded? On one hand I can see the case for blaming the victim for using reloads. But on the other hand the gun should have had some kind of failsafe for not firing unless the round was completely seated. In Glocks there's a firing pin block that won't be disengaged unless the trigger is pulled and the slide is completely forward. Maybe a five-seven owner can elaborate?
All you handload critics, please reread the original post. No where init does he say he was using handloads. He doesn't reference ammo type ATALL. You surely can screw up a handload, it's also possible to get badfactory ammo; doesn't happen very often but it can happen. All the\"experts\" who can analyze what happened and why by looking at the photoshouldn't be wasting time on this, they should be making millionsworking for product liability lawyers as expert witnesses.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-41318-100x100.png\")
@xtc46: Incorrect.
If firearms were regulated exactly as much as automobiles, I would be able to buy a machinegun on ebay, have it shipped to me as freight, and use it legally on my own property without ever filling out a government form.
I would be able to carry my machinegun in public if I passed a simple test on local state firearms laws, and demonstrated a little proficiency at the range.
Are you sure you want firearms regulated like automobiles?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-139070-100x100.png\")
What was this then?
FTA: On Saturday, April 12, 2008, at 1528HRS I was out target shooting and testing some ammunition that I had reloaded. Before anyone says, \"It was a reload, he probably double charged it!\" let me say this:
I did not double charge this load, everything was well within specifications.
I had loaded 200 rounds of the following:
Bullet: Hornady 55grain FMJ BT
Case: Once (a couple might have been twice) fired 5.7x28mm brass
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Powder: Ramshot TrueBlue 5.0grains
Case Length: 1.128in + or - .002in
OAL: 1.580in + or - .003in
Yep, Marsneedsrabbits, it looks like a handload. You KaBoom your pistol on a handload and the manufacturer ain't responsible.
I handload myself ... some of my firearm have spendy ammo requirements.
I ain't going to go cry to the manufacturer if one of my loads blows up in my face.
Naw, you could easily get the IOM back in 2003 and even then you regularly saw the Tactical model for sale used from dealers who had purchased them as samples. Nothing restricts their ability to sell those guns to the public. Either way, his is an IOM which was readily available. I would know, I bought 2 but now carry a USG.
@Simply_J:
I would be happy to elaborate. He demonstrates where he claims the 5.7 will fire when the slide is out of battery. He demonstrates this on a 5.7 USG (not the model that exploded), which I know for a fact do not do that because I tested it myself. 5.7 USG will not fire out of battery, and neither will my IOM (the kind that exploded). they do have a disconnect that prevents out of battery firing.
His test, if he is correct (which I doubt), simulates real world conditions in two ways: 1. whenever you chamber a round there is a chance it does not seat properly. should you need to fire your gun it will fire out of battery and explode in your face, like it did with him. 2. God forbid you should need to use your 5.7 against another human being. If you did need to in a self-defense situation, close quarters combat would sometimes require pressing the barrel of a 5.7 against an attacker's body. If the guy is correct the shot will explode in his face, rendering the gun useless despite the fact that the assailant has not been neutralized, getting you killed.
That said, I think he is wrong about out of battery firing in general, and therefore I think the problem here is his poorly made reloads. These explosions are almost always reloaded ammo's fault.
Another little factoid to consider I see at my local range often that contributes to out of battery misfires. Gun nuts (the REAL nuts not just those that own and like firearms) will try to unload a magazine as fast as they can. Many times the next round will not seat properly and BOOM explosion. I am alos a member of a local gun club and we have banned quick firing for this reason and that the shots are not properly aimed and dangerous to anyone around.
@hypochondriac: > My excuse is I live in NY so can someone explain what an out-of-battery malfunction is.
And out of battery malfunction is one that occurs when the slide/breech
and barrel are not securely locked together. The gun in question is
what's known as a short recoil tilt barrel design. When the slide is
fully forward the barrel is locked to the slide by an ledge on the
barrel near the front of the chamber holding the cartridge. When the gun
fires, the barrel and slide recoil together for a short distance still
locked together. This keeps the chamber sealed until the high pressure
has mostly bled out the front (muzzle) of the barrel. As the slide
continues to recoil, the barrel is cammed down and unlocks from the
slide. Now that pressure is at a safe level, the slide continues
rearward, extracting and ejecting the fired case. The slide then moves
back forward picking up another cartridge from the magazine and pushing
it into the chamber. As the cartridge is pushed fully into the chamber,
the barrel is now pushed forward, cams upward, and is locked once again
to the slide. Theoretically, the gun cannot fire until the slide and
barrel have locked together. But if, somehow, they are NOT locked
together i.e, not in battery, there is nothing to prevent the high
pressure gases (about 40,000psi for the cartridge in question) from
blowing out the relatively weak brass case head and wreaking havoc with
anything in the immediate vicinity of the breech. Usually in a handgun
the damage is limited to blowing the magazine out the bottom, perhaps
bending and/or bulging the slide, maybe bending frame rails. The amount
of damage done to that FiveSevenN is relatively greater than usual.
Firearms engineers and designers go to great lengths to prevent
out-of-battery malfunctions. Cams, links, levers, etc. are used so that
the trigger/firing mechanism is disabled unless and until the gun is
fully locked in battery. Most often when an out-of-battery malfunction
occurs it's the result of a \"slam fire\" where the gun fires as the
cartridge is seated: this is usually because the gun is way too dirty
and fouling has caused the firing pin to stick or jam in place causing
it to hit the cartridge as the cartridge is loaded. But in the case
here, if it was truly an out-of-battery issue, the gun fired when the
trigger was pulled, something that should not have happened if it was
out of battery. That would indicated a manufacturing error or prior
damage to the gun disabling the built-in safety mechanisms designed to
prevent that.
The above is probably a lot more information than you wanted to know but
I hope it cleared up your question.
im too lazy to read the OP in its entirety...
don't forget that if a primer is not seated correctly in a reload, it doesn't matter what functions the gun has to prevent out of battery firing.
I'm with the \"reloading failure\" crowd on this one. Examining my spent 5.7brass as fired from a PS 90 I can see stress cracks in many cases. Reloadingcan be very safe, but I think this cartridge runs too close to the edge inblowback weapons and destroys the brass as it is fired. In a bolt gun orlocked breach weapon it ought to do just fine.
And what's with the ammo cost complaints? I can routinely get a
box of 50 rounds for $20 or at most $23 bucks, compared to most other
\"premium\" cartridges it's a bargain! Compare to the price of 30 carbine
Winchester hollow points for instance at $40 per box of 50, or any premium
handgun self defense load at about $1 per shot.
Thomas Smith
Some people call the midwest the heartland, I prefer to think of it as the
liver or kidneys.
Not too interesting or romantic, and easy to ignore until they stop working.
You know I do not think it has a drop barrel. Mine does not incline at all. Isn't it delayed blowback with an inertia disconnect for slide/barrel assembly?
There are fewer anti-gunners in this thread than I thought there would be.
He needs to get the opinions of some master-gunsmiths with no connection to FN before he gives up on the idea of a lawsuit. If the neck of the case was in fact blown straight, then it probably did fire out of battery. But only someone with a hell of a lot of experience could state that with certainty.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-326180-100x100.png\")
How is this any better than a airbag going off in your face for no reason? Fiveseven should be liable for their defective gun (this should not have happened under any circumstances).
I would be seeking a settlement or at least pressing charges under endangerment or reckless endangerment.
As some of you have seen a little video made by one of his buddies that is trying to make a living on reloading.
Only 1 huge problem with this the 5.7 is a delayed back system, the round, barrel and breach will move to the rear .152 and if you look at the calibers they are reading around .135 meaning it is still in battery.
The one that reloaded this has made so many mistakes and refuses to accept responsibility or for that fact to seriously consider his own errors.
Reloading any round is not to be taken lightly, but this one is not one to mess with.
Some of his reloading problems
1. Used a Powder that has no load data for that round.
2. Used a boat tail bullet and it is published not to
3. Used a hand held press to resize by Lee which is not rigid enough to securely set back the shoulder case by .05
4. Reloaded when the manufacture recommends against it.
5. Used a heaver bullet then there is load published data for, which will increase pressures ! hmmm !
Are you seeing a pattern here?
He ignores published warnings.
He should consider himself lucky and move on and thankfully that it was not family or a friend he was showing off for and them being harmed.
Following is my letter to FNH, please update this article to reflect recent changes.
Thank You,
-Jake
To Whom This May Concern,
I am writing this letter in request of Tommy Thacker per our
conversation on this date at 7:38PM Pacific Standard Time, requesting
“nothing but the facts” of the incident that happened on April 12, 2008,
while I was out target shooting my FNH FiveseveN IOM pistol.
On Saturday, April 12, 2008, at 1528HRS I was out target shooting and
testing some ammunition that I had reloaded.
I had loaded 200 rounds of the following:
Bullet: Hornady 55grain FMJ BT
Case: Once (a couple might have been twice) fired 5.7x28mm brass
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Powder: Ramshot TrueBlue 5.0grains
Case Length: 1.128in + or - .002in
OAL: 1.580in + or - .003in
I load every single round by hand using a Lee hand press, RCBS 5-0-5
Scale, RCBS calipers, RCBS seating die, etc... Each round is placed in
front of me with plenty of lighting while I am measuring powder, then
after all powder is measured and placed in the cases I inspect the case
for powder, as even 1.0grains more or less is quite easy to see, then
placed in the hand press, topped off with a bullet, and then the bullet
is seated. If the powder was double charged it would fill up into the
base of the case's neck. Like I said, cases are inspected for overcharges.
Back to the accident. I had fired 66 rounds all reloads of various
bullets (Hornady 40grain VMAX, pulled 28grain HP from SS195LF, Hornady
55grain FMJ). My 2nd 20round magazine I fired 5 rounds of 40VMAX I had
some failure-to-eject (these were loaded with HS-6, I've had problems
with that powder causing FTE), then tossed the magazine so I could pull
those bullets and reload them with Ramshot TrueBlue. After that I fired
20 rounds off the 28grain bullets, all of which functioned flawlessly
with Ramshot TrueBlue powder. The next magazine of 20 rounds was the
55grain FMJ with the load data above. The first magazine fired
flawlessly, I even noted in my reloading book that it I might want to
try loading to 5.1grains and see how they functioned. The 2nd magazine
is when I ran into the malfunction, the first round fired like the
previous 20, the it happened.
On the 2nd round I realigned my sights, slowly pulled the trigger and
the gun literally exploded in my hands. I saw bits and pieces of the top
of the slide cover blow. My first reaction was, \"Oh crap what just
happened.\" My second reaction was, how are my hands, I released my grip
with my left hand (off-hand) and blood was trailing down my palm
dripping off my hand. I could see 2 sources of the blood flow, one on my
thumb and the other the web of my hand. I tossed down my FiveseveN into
the grass in front of me and inspected my right hand. My right hand
faired much better than my left, a small spot on the tip of my thumb.
I immediately pulled my cellphone out of my pocket and called my wife
who had just arrived at my father's residence where I was at, I was
~1/2mi from the house. I told her to tell my dad to get out here, my gun
just exploded, he quickly arrived and assessed my injuries. We went back
to the house, cleaned my hand up a bit, bandaged it up, and went to the
hospital ~40minutes away with my wife and mother-in-law.
Spent about 2 hours at the hospital getting 1 stitch in the web of my
hand and 2 xrays. The xrays revealed a chunk of brass in the middle of
my hand between my index and middle finger, and two very small peices
between my index finger knuckle and the web of my hand. I have gone to a
surgeon to see about getting the large piece of brass removed from my
hand but he cautioned against it as it would cause more damage taking it
out than leaving it in, as it is embedded into the muscle in my hand a
probably isn't going to go anywhere so there isn't any worry about it
moving around and slicing tendons and such.
I initially lost feeling in over 50% of my index finger and my thumb
felt like it had been hit by a hammer and had numbness for about a week.
I have gained some feeling back in my finger and am at ~35% complete
numbness now.
My FN FiveseveN IOM is a complete loss, the magazine is still inside the
grip, the remaining 18 rounds were forced out of the bottom of the magazine.
After looking over my FiveseveN I came to the conclusion that it had
fired out-of-battery. There is 0 damage to the chamber and barrel that I
can see. From what I can figure the round fired (out-of-battery) and the
case was able to hold the pressure enough to allow the bullet to clear
the barrel and the case wall gave way in the rear because it wasn't
being supported by the chamber. The expanding case broke off at the neck
while being extracted and as you can see from the photos above the whole
back end of the case gave way. One chunk of brass is embedded into the
right side of the grip, I almost had a matching chunk of brass in my
right hand, but the grip stopped it.
After talking with a few friends and showing them my new paper weight
they came to the same conclusion. Ryan from Elite Ammunition
(www.eliteammunition.com, Custom 5.7x28mm Ammunition, both reloaded and
virgin brass loads) also concluded that the cause was from it firing
out-of-battery. He also stated that he has observed that with the
FiveseveN the hammer will drop at up to 1/4inch out-of-battery.
I contacted Robert Ailes the Customer Support Manager at FN,
703-288-3500 ext 122, roberta@fnhusa.com, on the 14th of April and told
him my situation. He told me that he would talk to his boss about it and
contact me the next day. Also told me that since I was shooting reloads
that the warranty on my gun is void.
Next day, no phone call, so I called after hours and left a message for
him to please return my call and gave him my cellphone number. So around
noon on the 16th he called me and told me that \"someone\" would be
contacting me soon. I asked when they might be contacting me and he said
he did not know, but they would be in touch. I also asked how much it
would be to just get it fixed/replaced and he said he didn't know, I
would have to talk to the person who will contact me. I was expecting a
call from FN's legal team...
April 28th... I called and left a message for him, asking him what the
situatino was and when/if someone was going to contact me. At this point
I pretty much felt as if they were just waiting for me to go away so
they wouldn't have to deal with the situation.
April 29th... Rober Ailes returned my call and said the best they could
do for me was send me a pre-paid packing slip that would be here by
Thursday (May 1st) to ship the gun to them so it could be looked at,
held for 30 days, then destroyed. I asked if I could get it back after
they looked at it, and he said no and that it would be destoryed. He
also offered me a \"deep discount\" on a new gun, but gave no details as
to how much it would be.
I've been in contact with Tommy Thacker over the past few days via
fivesevenforum.net, voicemail, and our conversation tonight. I never
once wanted to blame FN for my problem, however after reviewing my
original post, what I posted and what I really meant didn't not come out
to be the same, for that I apologize profusely for. When I talked to
Tommy I told him 2 or 3 times what my intent was with my post and he
told me that that is what he got from my post. My post was out of
frustration in the abundance of broken promises that I had received. I
wanted to see if someone else could get more information than I could
from FNH, because from the half dozen telephone calls that were made and
received I had been told numerous things and they never happened. I
never asked for anything from FNH, I just wanted to know if someone
would want to take a look at what happen to help me understand further
what caused this problem.
I will post this response to FNH on fivesevenforum and other places I
posted. I will also do my best to contact any other places that my
incident has been posted to.
I thank you for your time and sorry for any inconveniences that I have
caused Robert Ailes, Tommy Thacker, and anyone else at FNH. I tried
making clear in my post that all I posted was my observation and nothing
more. It seems that this was blown out of proportion and beyond the
control of the forum, myself, and FNH.
========
End of Letter
========
I talked with Tommy tonight, he said FNH wanted to take care of the
problem, send me a new gun w/no questions asked. All they asked is that
I send them a letter of nothing but the \"facts\" and they will send me a
pre-paid slip to return the gun and they will inspect it and replace by
gun for me at no cost.
I want to publicly thank everyone here, and everyone at FNH for their
time and effort that was put into this. A lot has happened in the past
few days and this has blown way out of proportion.
If anyone got from my original post that I was putting the blame on FN,
my intentions were not such. Tommy even acknowledged that he did not
feel that from my original post.
They are investigating and doing their own testing to see if an OOB fire
is possible given all the variables of the situation.
I will try and update everyone as things happen.
Again, thank you all,
-Jake
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-220497-100x100.png\")
buy a plastic gun...smart.
sure am glad i own my Springfield XD9, the gun that out glocks the glock.
Technical point:
The pistol did not blow up, the ammunition blew up. It was a faulty or mis-loaded round of ammunition that caused his injuries and he should be blaming the company that produced the rounds.
yes there is a semi auto carbine version of the P90
in canada the 5.7 is a banned weapon last time i checked but i have seen both the pistol and the semi-auto carbine version of the p90 available in the states
i would imagine that the reloading dies would be astronomical in cost considering that the round is not all that common compared to the .40 or .45 or other ammunition commonly used
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-264697-100x100.png\")
@Ash78: \"Hmmmm. I always question the time frames, just as the attorneys do in trial.
Ash78 sough medical attention and called Five-seveN customer support from the ER to bitch them out and demand a settlement\"
Your reading comprehension is lacking. He got shrapnel embedded in his hand, he didn't lose a limb. He was probably in and out in the same afternoon.
I Feel I'm somewhat of a expert on reloading. Reloading for any \"bottleneckcase\" in a semi auto brings numerous dangers. I have reloaded forcompetition 10,000's rounds for AR - M1A. You need to know exactly what yourdoing. There are numerous Kabooms reasons. In my opinion this was not an\"out of battery or slam fire\". I own a 5and 7 and I will not reload for itPeriod!!!! The pressure for this handgun equal rifles. Where a 308 in a boltgun can go to 60000 lbs but an M1A should not be loaded over 50000. There isso much the posters don't understand. This case is extremely sensitive tomany factors. The 223 is too but not like this little round. I remember 223rounds I made up for 600 & 1000 yds. at Perry, in March, but blew primers in85 degree plus August. This guy was using a 55 gr bullet - way to heavy. Itmay have been jammed in rifleing ( the ogive or profile of bullet was notproper for the leade of the chamber)increasing pressures dramatically. The5& 7 is designed to have the shoulder set back an amazing .05 not like mostbottle necks of .006 t0 .004!!! He did not have gauges to measure this. Iset my match rounds back .004 giving .001 brass spring back. But I have\"cast my chambers\" and have all my chamber measurements down to .0000! Thereare many more things an amateur could miss. Reloading for a \"bottleneck highpressure round is not for idiots\" I have read all the threads on 5 & 7forums most do not understand reloading for what is basically a highpressure rifle round. I understand this, and I will not reload this tinycase that gives absolutely no quarter for error. If you want more infoe-mail me. Lots of wrong stuff in this thread you can buy an AR pistol....Reloading for a rifle you can get away with a lot
I see this has not been updated so I will with this post from FNH after inspecting the gun.
As you can read and see Jake created the KB.
It was not out of battery when it fired and was duplicated with a double charge of powder, which he still replies in his forum he still does not think he did.
Experience comes with time, not just because you think you are.
quote..
Warning
DANGER CAUSED BY RELOADED AMMUNITION!
Subject: Five-seveN serial # 386102425
Date: 6-9-2008
The following conclusions are results from FNH USA's evaluation of the Five-seveN serial # 386102425 sent in to our service facility after a failure using reloaded ammunition.
Upon examination of this pistol we were able to determine that it did not fire \"out of battery\" and the catastrophic failure exhibited in this example was clearly caused by excessive cartridge pressure generated by reloaded ammunition.
Our examination showed that the shoulder of the case was separated from the rest of the cartridge and it was left in place inside the chamber. The position of this piece of brass shows that the handgun was in full battery when the reloaded cartridge was fire and the excessive pressure occurred. Another indicator that confirmed our findings is the primer extruded back into the firing pin hole and a portion of the case head was stuck to the breech face. This was caused by brass flow back into the leaded chamber indicator hole.
Additionally there was serious damage to the slide assembly which is clear evidence of excessive pressure. The lower edge of the breech face was peeled away and the slide itself was deformed from the excessive pressure. The pressure that caused this damage exceeded OEM ammunition standards.
The FN ballistics laboratory was able to duplicate the catastrophic failure almost identically with 2x the load data provided by the consumer. In this test the shoulder of the cartridge was left in the chamber at the same position as #386102425, the slide was damaged in the exact same way as #386102425, and the cartridge case head seperated in the same manner with the brass flowing into the loaded chamber indicator hole.
The design of the Five-seveN pistol, being a recoil operated delayed blow back system, has key parameters that prevent an \"out of battery\" firing.
Our established testing data indicates the firing pin will not strike the primer of a cartridge after .1180 inch. of rearward slide travel. With the slide moved rearward .1540 - .1545 inch. (true out of battery limit), it is impossible for the firing pin to strike the primer, at this point the trigger lever does not actuate the lever of the firing pin safety. It was also noted in our examination that the firing pin safety was still fully functional on Five-seveN #386102425.
It is FNH USA's finding that the catastrophic failure of Five-seveN #38610xxxx was due completely to excessive pressure caused by the reloaded ammunition and was not the result of an \"out of battery\" firing.
Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.
If you have lost or misplaced your owners manual please contact our customer service department at 703-288-3500 x122 for a replacement.
Tommy Thacker
Product Manager
FNH USA, LLC.
end of quote ..
Here are the results from the Manufacture after inspecting and duplicating the accident.
quote-----
Warning
DANGER CAUSED BY RELOADED AMMUNITION!
Subject: Five-seveN serial # 386102425
Date: 6-9-2008
The following conclusions are results from FNH USA's evaluation of the Five-seveN serial # 386102425 sent in to our service facility after a failure using reloaded ammunition.
Upon examination of this pistol we were able to determine that it did not fire \"out of battery\" and the catastrophic failure exhibited in this example was clearly caused by excessive cartridge pressure generated by reloaded ammunition.
Our examination showed that the shoulder of the case was separated from the rest of the cartridge and it was left in place inside the chamber. The position of this piece of brass shows that the handgun was in full battery when the reloaded cartridge was fire and the excessive pressure occurred. Another indicator that confirmed our findings is the primer extruded back into the firing pin hole and a portion of the case head was stuck to the breech face. This was caused by brass flow back into the leaded chamber indicator hole.
Additionally there was serious damage to the slide assembly which is clear evidence of excessive pressure. The lower edge of the breech face was peeled away and the slide itself was deformed from the excessive pressure. The pressure that caused this damage exceeded OEM ammunition standards.
The FN ballistics laboratory was able to duplicate the catastrophic failure almost identically with 2x the load data provided by the consumer. In this test the shoulder of the cartridge was left in the chamber at the same position as #386102425, the slide was damaged in the exact same way as #386102425, and the cartridge case head seperated in the same manner with the brass flowing into the loaded chamber indicator hole.
The design of the Five-seveN pistol, being a recoil operated delayed blow back system, has key parameters that prevent an \"out of battery\" firing.
Our established testing data indicates the firing pin will not strike the primer of a cartridge after .1180 inch. of rearward slide travel. With the slide moved rearward .1540 - .1545 inch. (true out of battery limit), it is impossible for the firing pin to strike the primer, at this point the trigger lever does not actuate the lever of the firing pin safety. It was also noted in our examination that the firing pin safety was still fully functional on Five-seveN #386102425.
It is FNH USA's finding that the catastrophic failure of Five-seveN #38610xxxx was due completely to excessive pressure caused by the reloaded ammunition and was not the result of an \"out of battery\" firing.
Please be aware that the owner's manual for the Five-SeveN handgun clearly states on page 4 that FN Herstal declines any responsibility and invalidates any guarantee and liability claims for incidental or consequential damages (injuries, loss of property, commercial loss, lost of earnings and profits, ...) resulting in whole ore partly from the use of reloaded ammunition.
If you have lost or misplaced your owners manual please contact our customer service department at 703-288-3500 x122 for a replacement.
Tommy Thacker
Product Manager
FNH USA, LLC.
end of quote-------
\"It's nice to see that guns are starting to kill the people who are using them, rather than the bystanders.\"
\"The vast majority of people mentally cant handle shooting another person\"
To reply to the quotes: I can kill anyone if it is them or the safety of my family. Second, we are talking about law abiding people target shooting not convicts killing good people. To wish harm on anyone that is just enjoying themselves legally is obsurd and offensive.
These quotes from this discussion are ridiculous and the people making them are idiots.
I have the 5.7 and it is the best pistol I have ever owned. Keep it clean and shoot factory ammo and you will be fine.
It appears the Owner exceeded the recommend MAP for reloading the 5.7x28mm. A 55gr bullet is too heavy for the gun given the chamber pressures. Several reloading sites state you should never chamber anything heavier than the a 40gr bullet with 6.3gr of powder in the pistol.
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At the (admittedly large) risk of sounding like a total gun n00b... What the hell is FiveseveN? I always thought FN stood for Fabrique Nationale?