![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-186777-100x100.png\")
Rofl, I love that the response is that \"we can't give you a free memory unit\".
They might as well have responded \"we regret to inform you that we cannot provide you with the pickled seal meat from finland that you requested\".
Hint for Kevin Lamb from Microsoft: When responding to complaints, READ THE COMPLAINT FIRST.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-14723-100x100.png\")
Why would Microsoft use DRM on saved game files? Is it illegal toshare game saves now? Are they that concerned that people don't \"cheat\"their way to achievement points?
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-69858-100x100.png\")
@RAREBREED: I was amazed when I got a response from a large bank that indicated they actually read my email and understood I wasn't trying to file a full chargeback but wanted advice; they issued a provisional credit and let me know that if my (already ongoing, as I told them) efforts to solve the problem directly with the merchant failed, THEN contact them before 60 days post-charge pass.
Sad that it's now surprising when we get what we actually hoped for instead of some random irrelevant BS.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1177-100x100.png\")
@Aesteval: It's not just game saves, it's saved games, like downloaded games from XBOX Live.
This same thing happened not too long ago to a guy who sent his 360 in for repair and upon getting a different unit back with a different serial # could not access any of his downloaded TV shows, movies or saved games.
It appears that MS has a problem with their gamertag recovery system and they don't give a crap about it.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/css/images/default.gif\")
\"Moving the gamertag to play in different locations is how the Xbox Live! service is intended to be used,\"
No it's not. Xbox Live is intended to let you play other people over the internet. i.e. your at your house play your friend while he's at his house.
Also, the way you describe it, it sounds like you were using the glitch to give/get achievement points that you did not properly and honestly earn.
@DeeJayQueue: Ok, I see what I did now. Iread \"saved games\" to mean \"game saves.\" I understand why they woulduse DRM on download games. But yeah, I heard about that previousincident that you mentioned and Microsoft's DRM service is downrightbroken when it comes to it. This type of service can not workadequately if a user loses access to the goods and services that theypaid for.
This is a non-story. Sometimes data is lost. He lost his save game files, not something with value or worth.
People don't have recourse when an os glitch or hard drive crash deletes actual work. MS should just erase his account and start him with a clean one on his gamertag.
His asking for a refund is total crap. These are games and are supposed to be fun to play. That is the entire value of the service. He has already received the full value from his past service with xbl.
@Techguy1138: Read the posts above yours. Your assumption that it's just save files is likely incorrect.
@Aesteval: Same mistake here.
His letter is very poorly worded. In this case the refund is justified since he purchased electronic programs with the expectation that he would be to play them in the future.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-64499-100x100.png\")
Yes XBL is sometimes screwed up as so more for the tech support. I paid and downloaded a picture pack (Streetfighter) a year or two ago. I then purchased a new set of picture pack and switched over. I decided to switch back but could not since I can't find it on my unit. I called tech support so I can download it again but they said they could not find any history of me ever purchasing my first picture pack!!!! And the way the tech support person was talking to me felt like he was implying that I was a lier. So bottom line, I never got it back and was pissed for quite sometime!
@Techguy1138: I disagree. This is a story about how when you ask for help from customer service, they don't even bother to read your complaint, then when you elevate the complaint, they don't read the elevation either and still respond with the same irrelevant non-answer that shows they don't care about their customers beyond the mone rolling in.
@Techguy1138: But this isn't a loss of data.This is a loss of access to data that exists due to an excessively ironhanded approach to DRM. And apparently the originator of the DRM isunable to create a work around for the issue thereby causing the payinguser to lose access to good and services that they have every right tobe able to expect to continue to have access to. If the user has accessto their account, then they should have the right to expect to haveaccess to goods and services that were paid for by that account.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-225771-100x100.png\")
These stories have been popping up a lot lately. Is this a new issue or is this the same crappy DRM they've been using since launch? I was under the impression that only the original purchasing GamerTag could play full versions of Xbox Live Arcade games in a transfered GamerTag situation. But lately it sounds like you can't even do that - like some XBLA games are \"downgraded\" to trial versions even with the original GamerTag.
@Buran: I read his complaint and it appeared to me to be a problem with his save game files. Only when someone else pointed out that this could I see that maybe he was referring to downloaded content.
His letter is unclear. I made a similar mistake as did another reader here. I don't even like MS or the XBOX.
Is anyone suprised why PS3 is starting to finally take ground and why the Wii has been so popular. I read more negative XBox stories than I do positive. I am quite glad not to be a gamer.
Good luck getting them to resolve anything via a BBB complaint. I've had an open complaint for 2 months now for them to fix my DRM locked games, and Microsoft couldn't be any less helpful. I've been lied to repeatedly, and told I would be called back dozens of times, in which they have never once followed up on it. They even tried to fraudulantly close the BBB complaint (case # 22144179), saying that they contacted me and fixed the problem. What a bunch of crooks. Worst customer service ever.
@Techguy1138: My previous reply was directed before seeing this comment.
And it depends upon which part of the refund is justified. The firstlisted recourse is for Microsoft to fix the problem and allow affectedusers to have access to their purchases again (a win for everyone,including Microsoft as I think that it would be fully justifiable tosee something along the lines of a class action lawsuit over this sortof issue.) The second recourse is for Microsoft to fix the issue sothat it does not recur in the future (a win for everyone except forthose that need to eat a loss over what they have already lost, butultimately everyone is better for it eventually.) The third recourseappears to be a full refund on any and all XBox 360 related items thatthey paid for (both hardware, software, and downloaded content.) Iwould support the refund for just the lost downloaded content, butdon't believe that Microsoft should be giving a refund for anythingthat remains usable unless the user plans on returning all refundedgoods and services to Microsoft as part of the agreement. But eventhen, the quoted amount would be significantly more moderate than whatsome people try to get out of a company (in this case a formallycalculated number as opposed to a random number with lots of 0's tackedon.)
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-269839-100x100.png\")
Even if the guy's letter is unclear as to whether it's a saved downloaded game vs. a game's save file... Microsoft's response still pointed out that they had record of previous contact with him. The drone who copy/pasted that letter could have taken the extra 30 seconds to actually LOOK at the case notes from that call.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-1196-100x100.png\")
It seems like there was obviously some sort of misdirection - If he first called the support line on Jan 17, why did Kevin Lamb try to call him 10 days prior? That would also explain why Kevin thought he was requesting a free memory card in compensation.
While he did a good job in outlining his expected remedies to the situation, it seems a little bit outrageous to demand a full refund on (1)The Console, (2) The Live Service, (3) Every game he ever purchased and (4) Every accessory he ever purchased. They're unlikely to take him seriously after reading that. A refund for just the live service and content purchased through it would probably have been more reasonable.
@Aesteval: That is not stated in the letter. The author of the letter only talks about his personal data that he spent two year gaining. Never is paid downloaded content mentioned in this complaint.
The author never states that he can not play games that he purchased. Nor was any reference to pay content made. It's ambiguous if he is simply referring to save game files, or actual paid content.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-72478-100x100.png\")
This is why I hate electronic transactions with no paper trail; they can easily lose data regarding your purchases and then there's no easy way to get your money back, should what you buy magically turn into fairy dust and disappear.
I like my Xbox quite a bit, but every time I read about MS or the unit itselit brings me one step closer to selling the damned thing and moving on.
@Troy F.: I wouldn't take the date Kevin Lamb gave as being even close to accurate. I've gotten all sorts of e-mails from Xbox Customer Support with incorrect, or completely made up information. They have absoluetly no business ethics when dealing with customer relations. I wish I was exaggerating, but it IS that embarassingly bad.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-90613-100x100.png\")
If you read his forum postings, he is definitely talking about save files and not downloaded games. The saves are sitting on his hard drive, but his recovered profile refuses to recognize them because of various DRM reasons. Anyone thinking this isn't a big deal is obviously not a gamer, you can spend hundreds of hours on these saves and suddenly being locked out of them with no recourse is absolute bullshit.
Either this post is very poorly put together, or Brad is leaving out large parts of the story. Something doesn't add up - you don't need a memory unit to \"move\" your gamer tag to a friend's, nor do you \"lose\" your tag on your 360 just because you log in somewhere else.
So why did Brad take a memory unit to his friend's? Why did he wipe his tag from his 360 when he did? Why did he think he'd be able to get his data back when he wiped his gamertag from his 360?
I can kind of see the logic in the third option:
if you knew that The Xbox360 and the Live service was so shoddy (regarding similar issues) then you would not have purchased it in the first place; you want your money back on everything.
Since when are save game files not worth anything? Seriously, try putting a few days work into a game and losing all of it. It sucks. It sucks even more when the data is sitting right there and you just can't access it because of some random corporate policy.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-265706-100x100.png\")
its stuff like this that makes me glad I switch from Windows XP to Ubuntu(Linux), from the Windows Moblie 5 Phone to Blackberry, and no longer play the 360 with anything I am not willing to lose.
@Techguy1138: Even if it is only save datafrom games; it is not a loss of data that is at issue here. The dataexists but is inaccessible due to a flawed DRM scheme. Actual loss ofdata is a risk, losing access to existing data is a customer serviceissue that a user has every right to expect to be fixed.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-26286-100x100.png\")
This might sound UBARU retarded of me, but...
Why not just get the memory card back from his friend place? Unless his friend lives in like China or something, I don't see why he could have gone back or waited to his said friend again.
My friend and I have left PS2 memory cards at each others houses many of times, and we just would swap back or something.
I'm also at a loss to why game saves are such a protected feature that you need a gamer tag to access them. Sounds dumb to me
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-27755-100x100.png\")
There used to be no problems with stuff like that, and I think what MS did was to reset everything when you recover a gamertag so you couldn't \"cheat\" by having someone else run up your gamerscore. The whole idea is asinine because the only person you would \"cheat\" is yourself. That is completely different than actually damageing someone else's game experience by using a modded xbox to use exploits in a competitive online game. Xbox live is fun as long as you don't have any problems, but when you do have problems they don't appear to have the personnel and proc0edures in place to fix their screw-ups. Stuff like this and playing arcade games on replaced 360s should not be a problem at all. We may have to wait for the \"Spring\" update for them to roll out the fix for this stuff.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-33953-100x100.png\")
I don't see how this can be true, I have a buddy that comes over all the time and when he forgets his memory card he just recovers his GT. He has never run into this problem at all, even during the holiday Live is Alive Skynet problems. Sounds fishy.
![\"user-pic\"](\"/mt-static/support/assets_c/userpics/userpic-93308-100x100.png\")
@Sailorcancer: Sounds like to me it would be too late for that because the gamer tags information is damaged on microsoft's servers. This would have been an option before he tried the recovery service, which is most likely what damaged it anyway.
Wow, Microsoft must have the Consumerist bookmarked, because only minutes after I posted here Microsoft couldn't get ahold of me fast enough. Frustratingly, they only called to tell me that they could do absolutely nothing to reauthorize my paid-for DRM broken games, and that basically I'm out of luck. I expected as much, so my next step will probably be small claims court. After months of being outright lied to by customer service, it is no longer a matter of the lost money, but just principle.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-143795-100x100.png\")
MS is just as bad as EA. Glad I do not support them.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-3865-100x100.png\")
@Sailorcancer: It sounds like he left the memory card at his friend's place, then did a \"recovery\", and it blocked access to all his saved data. Even with the memory card back, the damage is done.
This sounds like it is all the same issue, and MS really screwed the pooch on this.
I hate the idea that I bought games, and can ONLY play them if I'm connected to a broad band connection! So now, for the rest of the time I have my 360, if I want to play Street Fighter or Contra, i have to continue to pay for my broad band internet access even if I have no other use for it. What if I move to an area that only had dial up?
I had many issues with the 360,which,eventually led to me selling it.The last straw was losing the ability to load save game data in Oblivion(200+hrs),and Marvel Ultimate Alliance.The reasons for my data corruption are still unknown,but I can safely say it was a different issue than the one in this story.Super-Raw deal to lose ALL your data.
@Sailorcancer: It does sound easy, but it's not. If he went through the gamertag recovery process, the memory card with the saves on it won't work any more than the files on his hard drive in the actual 360.
The issue was never that the data had disappeared, it was that once he recovered his gamertag he could no longer access it. It's like working on a puzzle or a painting for a while and then coming back to realize that it's been encased in unbreakable glass. You can see it, but you can't touch it or work on it. In a lot of ways that's worse than if the data HAD actually vanished.
Gamertags let more than one user play games and track their progress and high scores on one machine, and theoretically lets users take that data with them on other machines as well; though in this case it doesn't seem to be working out so well.
@Techguy1138: Oh man, how could you say that. It's all about your saves, And I would be pissed if I lost Warhawk, Tekken or any of my downloaded games. MS should just crawl in a hole and die. Try to forget about this broken ass system they call the Xbox, and refund the dude his cash. I hope this happens to you, then we will see were you stand.
You know what console DOESN'T have this kind of insane DRM bullshit? All the others. Again, and as always, Microsoft sucks pipe.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-39539-100x100.png\")
The Better Business Bureau? Over some lost saved games/game saves? Yeah, it sucks, but that's just frivolous. Why not go the whole nine and hire Jack Thompson to file a suit?
It's nothing to do with DRM.
The \"Recover Gamertag\" feature is not designed as a convenience. It's a last resort when you have a problem with your profile.
MS has never recommended it as an option to move your profile around.
In this case, there was an issue with saved games - just one of a few possible issues.
@justhesh: Is Microsoft not a business? Did they not sell him something which they then rendered useless? What was actually lost might be frivolous, but being pissed off over a company ripping you off and not caring, not so much so.
Okay, I hate to say it, (and I know I'm going to get hammered for it) but I really don't see anything wrong with Microsoft's response here. As I first read the complaint, and even the second time I read it, it looked literally like he lost what level he was at in Halo 3 or something, you know, typical game save files. Heck, I've had memory cards get smashed to bits and lose all the save game files... big deal.
However, when reading through the responses, it finally became clear that he was probably talking about \"downloaded\" XBLA games. The saddest part is that only becomes obvious when reading through the forums. I think if you go on any video game site (including Consumerist's sister site Kotaku, using the phrase \"saved games\" is going to get a similar response from gamers, that he's talking about literally game saves.
What Brad needs to do, is to resubmit the BBB complaint, and instead of \"saved games\" talk about how he downloaded Xbox Live Arcade games, and how because of this error, he can no longer play these games. As he wrote it, it sounds more like a 10 year old whining that he left his memory card at someone's house and he expects microsoft to give him a new one or something.
Yes, I'll agree that Microsoft needs to do a better job reading the complaint, but I think Brad needs to do a better job writing it. Isn't that one of those things that is always pointed out in how to get the resolution to a situation you desire? Present your argument clearly?
Brad, rewrite the complaint, list WHAT games you downloaded from XBLA, how much said games currently cost through the service and try again.
Could it be that neither PS3 nor Wii has a comparable feature?
i.e. I don't have GPS problems on my car because my car doesn't have a GPS.
Since you can't transfer a gamer tag on either of these systems, you can't have this problem.
Stop trolling if you can't contribute something intelligent to the conversation.
@maverickuw
I don't think that he is talking about XBLA arcade games.
He specifically references spending 2 years time and effort on them - not just money.
People with an over-inflated sense of entitlement suck. And unfortunately today that covers almost all of mommy's precious little snowflakes.
Your gamertag has a guid associated with it that is registered to your gamertag. This was an anti-hacking measure that was put in place. Yeah, Wii and PS3 doesn't have this problem but they also don't offer movie downloads and achievements.
The scenario is thus: When you download something from Xbox Live, the people that can access the data are the gamertag that downloaded it and the console it was downloaded too. Say our litigious XCALIBUR18 decided to download an entire season of \"Gilmore Girls\". He then brings his tag over to his friend's house because neither can get enough of Alexis Bledel. Now, if there was no protection, then he could leave a copy of his gamertag on his friend's Xbox, while maintaining his own on his Xbox, thus having two people able to access the data at once.
I am sure we can see why this is a bad idea. Thus you are only able to have one instance of your gamertag in legitimate existance at a time. The only way of having two gamertags at once would be to use the recovery system since all transfer systems know to delete the old version. That is why you are given a new guid every time you use the recovery system.
This leaves the save game system. If you associate your save games with some unchanging feature on your gamertag, you run into the same problem of copied data. This counts for DLCs and achievements. If your game data wasn't protected in the same way, then it could easily be hacked and the Achievement Point system would be worthless to everyone instead of just the people who pretend not to care. Your save games identify themselves with the guid on your gamertag.
The part that really gets me, is that it tells you all this. Before you finalize gamertag recovery it flat out says, \"Recover your gamertag only if your profile is corrupt or missing. Recovery will delete all games saved for that profile on any console.\"
He has no case and is just wasting the government's time. I want to add that I love this about the xbox. That way when a person beats the game I know they went through the whole thing and didnt just download some save or borrow one from a buddy.
@Contra666
If he's not talking about XBLA arcade games, then this is honestly a non-issue.
The PS2 specifically had an issue where a demo erased saved games, and had other occurrences of saved games being deleted. Most game consoles in the last 10 years have had issues with that sometimes happening.
Heck, even NES games with battery backup lost save games if the cartridge left the down position while the system was on.
If it's just saved games, boo hoo, start over and enjoy the games over. If you didn't enjoy them enough the first time, then don't play them over (and why is he complaining?).
the saved games are on your memory unit still, just get it back and problem is solved. the saved games are stored on the client's side, not on M$' servers so how can u think its their fault? u saved in on ur memory unit, and didnt get the unit back, so its ur fault. M$ has 0 accountability here.
ur issue is as stupid is me creating a DVD with Roxio, leaving it at my apt, going to my friend's place and blaming Roxio cuz i cant watch the DVD i created with their software on my friend's PC.
get the hardware back and ur problem is solved.
case closed.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-47934-100x100.png\")
Big Corporation thinks you are a speck of dust in the wind. I wrote and complained about HP the other day how I can't download software for HP product from their website and how sucky the web page was. I got an email back thanking me for the compliments. If they think that my complaints are complements...what do they think about the complaints? They just write shit and no way intend to do anything about it.
@Aprotosis: Yes, but the memory unit he was using to play games on his friend's 360 was intended to be used as such. This is not to mention all of the problems people had losing saves over Christmas, when the service was barely functional for close to a month. Admit it, Microsoft's DRM is screwing over paying cutomers.
@Aprotosis: Since I have yet to own an XBOX 360, I think your pointing out of the most important part, \"Recover your gamertag only if your profile is corrupt or missing. Recovery will delete all games saved for that profile on any console.\" was very insightful.
I guess that makes it worse. He did something without READING THE INSTRUCTIONS, now he's complaining about it (and ironically, Microsoft responded back by not reading either...)
@Aprotosis: \"Recover your gamertag only if your profile is corrupt or missing. Recovery will delete all games saved for that profile on any console.\"
Thanks for posting that, I did not know about that, I'm a wii/computer gamer myself. If that does come up when you recover the tag, Brad is out of luck, as he should be. Bad move jumping the gun and doing a recover when he could have just gone to get the card, since he was warned that it could go wrong.
Why doesn't he just go back to his friends house and get his memory card with his game saves on it? I guess he probably didn't put all his saves on there. Either way, MS is fucking stupid for not being able to resolve such a simple issue. And, they couldn't even figure out what he was asking for.
@maverickuw: That issue is non-related to this story. Microsoft created the Memory Units Brad described, so you CAN port your information to your friend's console. If this wasn't the case, why would you even buy a 2nd controller? The quote Aprotosis is missing is a latch ditch effort to recover your information in case of a hard drive failure and such.
Why couldn't you just log-in under your gamer tag on your console minus memory card?
Also - your save games were on your memory card probably... Microsoft doesn't keep your saves in Redmond.
Have you read the last few comments. He stored his save games on the Xbox Live service. The gamertag was all that was on the memory card. He went home and used the recovery system, which says if you use it, you lose saved games. He used it, lost his saved games, and complained.
Sadly, it's people like this that lead to warnings such as: \"Warning: remove plastic before eating\" on products.
@adamsummers: Yes, but if he only ported the gamertag, not the saved games themselves... (i.e. the saved games were kept online), then he's out of luck. The memory cards were primarily for either A) transferring gamertags, or B) Users without hard drives.
@maverickuw: I think we can both agree on 2 things. 1) This e-mail is way too confusing to make proper sense of. 2) Microsoft customer (dis)service is an absolute joke.
@SeeOne: But you can transfer a PSN account on a PS3.
If you have a PSN account on one PS3 and want to access it on another PS3 you can get on the second PS3 and create a new user and then tell it you want to \"Use an exsisting PSN account\" under account signup. Then you can download all the games you have purchased again on the PSN account.
It just makes the PSN account unusable on the original PS3. You can switch them back and forth like that. And it never effects saves.
@Aprotosis: \"I want to add that I love thisabout the xbox. That way when a person beats the game I know they wentthrough the whole thing and didnt just download some save or borrow onefrom a buddy.\"
Why would you care whether someone has actually played a game tobeat it or not? Because of some stupid point system that doesn'tactually mean anything and is just a means to get people that \"care\"about the points to buy more games so that they can get more points? Ifpoints are really such a big deal, there are more ways to go aboutsecuring the system than all or none access. Microsoft could implementa fully featured game save sharing feature on the XBox by allowing thedashboard to copy saves to a USB flash drive and setting one bit ofdata as a marker to make the save invalid for the accumulation of\"points.\" That way little Timmy in Ohio can download a save to see theending of the game if he wants to and you don't have to get yourknickers in a knot over your precious point system giving out points topeople that didn't actually play the game.
It sounds like this guy got impatient and tried account recovery instead of just waiting to retrieve his memory card.
@JustinS: Not only that, but you can play games downloaded with one account when you are signed in to another account. The account is used only for access to the download list, not to restrict who can play the games on the PS3 hard drive.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-344875-100x100.png\")
Reading the thread, he's very clearly talking about saved games, not XBox Live Arcade games.
Recovering your Gamertag destroys your saved games, and you get that warning prior to using the Recover your Gamertag option on the 360. It's a last-resort option, not a \"hey I'm at my friend's place\" option.
MS themselves state:
\"...roaming with Xbox 360 requires an Xbox 360 Memory Unit to store your Xbox Live profile and your saved games.
While you can, in fact, perform the activity Recover Gamertag from Xbox Live to effectively import a fresh version of your profile to your console-or to your friend's console-you should know that doing this endangers your saved games, which reside on your memory unit or Xbox 360 Hard Drive.
With Xbox 360, your gamer profile can exist only in one place at one time, so downloading (or \"recovering\") it to a friend's system will invalidate the version of your profile that's still on your Xbox 360 Hard Drive, endangering any offline achievements and game saves since your last visit to Xbox Live.\"
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Disgusting. I love my XB360 but despise Microsoft's callousness to its customers' issues.
@sburnap42: I have 2 accounts on mine and while both can play most games I downloaded only the one that purchased Warhawk is allowed to play Warhawk.
@adamsummers:
Save games affected by the December outtages? All your saves are playable when your xbox is unplugged from the internet completely. None of your saves, with the exception of MMOs like FF11 and PSU, are stored online. Thus the December outtages could not affect your save games. Where do people come up with this?
This reminds me of a game my friends used to play. Basically any time one asked a question, the other just responded with \"No, I will not make out with you.\" Except then it was actually kinda funny.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-297061-100x100.png\")
1. Since when can you \"save\" your gamertag on a memory card. I was under the impression that it was non-transferrable unless you used the \"recover gamertag feature.\"
2. Last time I checked save games are kept resident on the memory card or hard drive NOT linked to one's \"gamertag\" on an MS server. All he had to do was get the mem. card and plug it back into his machine... why recover the gamertag?!
3. If anything it should've only wiped his Achievements NOT his saved games...
@Aesteval:
yay for the logical fallicy of the Strawman. I never mentioned Achievement Points in that context. If you really want to know my psychology I suppose I care about people using other's saves in the same way I care about people who cheat on homework or use the emergency lane on the highway as their own personal express lane. It is an over-inflated sense of personal justice. In my mind, you didn't deserve to beat the game. Nothing to do with your Gamerscore. If little Timmy wants to see the ending, he can learn to use Youtube and Google like everyone else. Otherwise why don't game makers just add a \"Push X to see all the cool bits\" option to the menu shell?
Is it any wonder that Peter Moore left as the Xbox Chief at M$ for the head spot at EA Sports, particulary in light of the timing of his departure after his \"mea culpa\" Xbox letter (during the summer of 2007) and the extension of the Xbox 360 warranty that cost M$ a reported $1.5 billion...? Not hardly.
@JustinS: Warhawk was specifically excepted from the common usage of PSN downloads due to the price. They didn't want folks sharing a \"premium\" title.
Microsoft, probably due to their software production background, assumes that everyone is trying to steal their products. The system is designed to deny access to content by default.
If you assume that any of the features like the Gamertag recovery system are there for your convenience, you're doomed.
This same EXACT thing happened to me last thursday, MS told me that it was my fault and that i must have deleted EVERY game save on my HD by accident. But anyone with a 360 would know that to delete a game save you have to choose delete on the specific file and then click yes....i must have done that to all 28 files by mistake and they said there was nothing they could do for me...and then when i threw a fit(like any gamer would after being told he has lost 2 years of game saves) they hung up on me. I love my 360 but MS can go F*CK themselves.
@Aprotosis: It never happened to me personally, but those sorts of problems seemed to be all over the major gaming blogs, as well as Microsoft's own support pages over the holidays. It could possibly be unrelated, but the loss of saved data seems to be a pretty big issued.
@Aprotosis: 1) Homework is a task defined toaid in education and it's reasonable to expect that people do their ownhomework. 2) An emergency lane on the highway is intended to be used asan emergency lane. 3) A game save is for a game, a manner ofrecreation, quite different from homework or the emergency lane. Andwhile these three situations may be quite different in their natures,chances are you really don't have any place in dictating to the rest ofthe world about how they should go about their lives in relation tothose areas, over-inflated sense of personal justice or not.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-196278-100x100.png\")
Umm.... Ive spent 250 hours playing Oblivion which I payed for. Saving is a feature of that game. If microsofts system screws up my save games they have effectively damaged a feature of oblivion and should be made to fix the problem. Its that simple. Save games is a feature of games and a common one at that
so if it has no value why does everyone include it?
Otherwise why don't game makers just add a \"Push X to see all the cool bits\" option to the menu shell?
Actually, that's a blog post for another day and another blog, but it's a damn good question in its own little way.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-146125-100x100.png\")
Why people continue bying products with DRM? is snake oil, for gods sake. I blame the users for that.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-4147-100x100.png\")
This reminds me of my call to AT&T service last night.
Me:Can I ask what my bill will be with all the taxes, fees, and other surcharges, before I get it?\"
ATT REP: Insert 10 minute run around about taxes, fees, and it not being less than 10 dollars a month..
I'll try again tonight, but I doubt I'll get an answer.
@Murdermonkey: If you've played 250 hours of oblivion, you've got your money out of it. It'd be sad to lose your saved games, but if you really enjoy the game that much, you wouldn't mind starting over and trying something different
Get this:
\"I got a call back from a Jeff from 18004MYXBOX tonight. Unfortunately, I was playing Peace of Mind by Boston in GHIII (using an offline user of course) and missed his call\"
\"No callback Saturday at noon. Way to to Microsoft, you guys are really impressing me with your customer service. The wait for accountibility continues...\"
Maybe they were too busy playing Peace of Mind by Boston in GHIII to call you back.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-104457-100x100.png\")
Again, AFAIAC anyone who knowingly purchases *anything* with DRM on it gives up *any* right to complain about it when it goes tits up.
Working, unobtrusive DRM on digital systems are next to impossible to implement correctly & are currently nothing more than a vehicle for unlimited copyright & forcing repurchases.
@jimv2000: \"Jeff\" has been my contact as well. Unfortunately, they never give you a direct number to call them back on. Just the usual route to an Indian call center. Your best bet is the Tier 3 line (1-888-236-0927). You'll get the same poor customer service, but they will at least be easier to understand. Rinse, wash, repeat.
@Aesteval:
I agree. I don't have a right to push my ideals on others, but that is a double-edged sword. You cannot push an ideal that education, public safety or entertainment is any more sacred than the other; which is exactly why I chose those two other examples. Thankfully I do not have to push my idea of game sanctity on anyone else. Microsoft apparenly agrees with me, so in this regard my idea is the status quo and everyone who disagrees gets to deal with it. I fully acknowledge that if Microsoft changes their mind, and people get to hack their save games, then I would then just have to deal with that.
Until then, I will deal with my own sense of personal gaming honor, you deal with yours, and maybe one day the twain shall meet.
I'm just find it hard to sympathize with him. IT'S A GAME. You should learn from your mistake of spending so much life on a game and go do something more permanent...like build something or learn something. Or get a job and move out of mom's house. (Ok, that was low, but still....grow up. It's a game.)
@adamsummers: I was tier 1 support for awhile...for Symantec. But it's the same everywhere. Most of the guys are monkeys with keyboards and knowledge base articles. Anyone who's any good doesn't last because they go get real jobs.
@Murdermonkey:
Now this is an interesting point. Are we entitled to game saves, or are they just there so we can go to sleep. In the day before game saves (The Before Times), people would literally just leave the console on over night. Thus expiring consoles earlier than expected.
This brings forward a little known point of the save game system on the Xbox 360. The game designer gets to decide. So little Timmy not getting to use my game save can be blamed on them. There are some games (Burnout Revenge being an example) where anyone can use the save willy-nilly and even use it to unlock Achievement Points because they chose not to keep the data locked to a gamertag. It would appear most publishers however, keep their save games locked. Wonder what that says?
@Aprotosis: I think you're taking your \"gamer honor\" a bit too seriously there buddy. If you're more concerned about your Achievement Points than craptacular customer service, you might want to rethink your priorities.
What games is he talking about? The ones on the hard drive? To fix that all you have to do is rerecover your profile on your console.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-140638-100x100.png\")
@jimv2000: Thank you for telling us how to live our lives, O Anointed One. Now piss off. And between this nonsense and my inability to play my XBLA games offline since I got my refurb console, I think I'll be running the hell away from any online offerings on the 360 in the future.
This is seriously nonsense of the highest order.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-3927-100x100.png\")
You've always been able to copy your gamertag to a memory card. Some people keep their gamertags on a memory unit instead of on the HD so it's always ready to take from place to place.
You can also copy gamesaves if you have the right equipment. It's a problem on places like 360voice.com where you win stuff for gaining more points that the other people within a week or certain timeframe. People that copy game saves will sometimes have the achievements unlocked in an order that would normally be impossible to achieve without something like the xploder.
@boots555:
Remember the days when you got a new game home and your memory card was full?
You have options
delete save games files. Not cool if they aren't your save games.
Buy a memory card the next day. Takes to long.
Play the game leaving the system on and pausing it. Won't work if a roommate wants to play in.Your game might get reset.
Play the game all the way through without sleeping. <- *note most people wouldn't think of this.
@Aprotosis: The thing is, what if thereasons for the locked saves are different than your beliefs?Ultimately their stance may align with what you want, but it may not befor the same reasons (though that may not matter since the end resultis the same.)
Anyway, I don't want to get too involved in the ethics regardingdevelopers determining what end users may and may not do with theirgame saves because it's too deep of an idea to be justified in atangent of another topic. I also don't have a particular inclination tosupport one stance over another right now anyway (fascinating idea,consumer rights would indicate that the user should be allowed leniencyin doing what they will if they decide to cheat, while developer rightswould give them leniency to have players play a game as it is meant tobe played.)
Although I am willing to say that locking saves to the point inwhich the original user may become unable to access those saves is verydraconian and excessive.
@adamsummers:
Again, my personal sense of honor in beating a game and not using other's saves has nothing to do with Achievement Points. Never said it did. Personally I think Achievement Points are an interesting gaming metric, but that is all.
And perhaps I don't get my panties all in a bunch over \"craptacular customer service\" because I don't perscribe to knee-jerk reactions. For every instance of good customer service you can find at a company, I can pretty much guarantee there will be two people who had awful experiences. That is universal. As far as this case goes, here is what we know:
Brad used gamer recovery to recover his gamertag from the Xbox Live service. Even though the service flat out tells him this will invalidate his saves, he does it anyways and it natually invalidated his saves. Brad then tries to contact customer service in an attempt to save Brad from Brad and is hit with the brick wall of reality. He then goes and spouts mis-truths to the BBB. Saying \"Moving the gamertag to play in different locations is how the Xbox Live! service is intended to be used\". Where you can move gamertags, he did not. He recovered a gamertag and that is a big difference. Microsoft did not intentionally or even unintentionally cause damage to his save files or gamertag as he attests, but he did. Plain and simple. He was given a warning and he choose to go through with it anyways. His two years of precious data was not apparently very precious or he woulda went to his friend's house and fetched his gamertag. His suggested resolution is just as asinine.
As for the poor customer service and Microsoft's response, we didn't actually get enough information to tell. For that matter, that information was purposefully removed. His case number has been deleted by him. We don't know what case number he submitted and cannot look up the case and its related correspondence on the BBB site because cases are password protected. We do however have the case number of the one Microsoft responded to, but that doesnt help because we dont have the password. For all we know, these can be two different cases and it was posted and presented in this manner to get a rise out of the ever mob-like Internet with nothing better to do than hate on Microsoft. I actually consider this to be more likely because Brad has a motive and MS specifically has a motive to not be a douche.
Can we use some critical thinking skills on stuff like this before we all over-react emotionally?
@SeeOne:
I can only speak for the ps; there is an online identifier that lets you go online and download games.
You can even download games to friends machines and play them there. As for your game save files you can simply copy them to a thumbdrive or whatever.
The ps3 doesn't have a similar feature because save game files aren't tied to your online purchases.
You B trolln' Yo!
@Aprotosis: We'll have to agree to disagree there chief. I'm not going to get in a pissing match with your ethics of game saving, and regardless of Brad's circumstances, Microsoft continuously gets tons of bad press for their customer service. Between the Red Rings, Live outgages, DRM issues, and scratched discs I've encountered it will be a long time before I rejoin the Microsoft Defense Force.
@adamsummers:
Not like anyone gets press for good customer service though, do they? Red Rings was a black eye, at they gave a one billion dollar apology in the sense of an unprecedented 3-year warranty. The December Live outtages was also an issue. I guess we can just ignore their track record of continual up time since Live's inception until that point, right? They also gave a free game as means of apology. Maybe you didn't like the game, but that doesnt devalue the gesture. Don't know of any DRM issues but this non-issue and as for scratched disc, that would take another thread to discuss but would boild down to a non-Microsoft specific issue. People just love to beat up on Microsoft and are waiting with baited breath to find the next excuse. I am not trying to say that thier sh*t don't stink and are some magnanimous coorperation, but in this case I don't find it as the bad guy.
OK, so MS states you will lose access to saved game data when recovering a gamertag. This is BROKEN functionality. If instead of this particular case someone put their gamertag on a memory unit, played it at a friends house, then something happened to that mem unit, breakage, hardware failure, etc. That person now has no choice but to use the recover option and lose all save games. How is that correct? MS needs to fix this issue. It shouldn't matter how it comes about, that's not the correct resolution to the problem. The files still exist, the service still exists, the service is still paid for, and the original console and games were all legally purchased and exist, yet the data is left in limbo. Can anyone honestly tell me with a straight face that makes sense or is fair? In the case of a memory unit failing due to a hardware issue it wouldn't even be the gamer's fault that the gamertag data was lost, and yet all their saved games would be invalidated yet still present. As a professional software developer I find this to be evidence of gross negligence on the part of the design team and something that MS should be on the hook to correct. It's not rocket science, it's just overly restrictive and arbitrary digital rights MISmanagement.
@adamsummers: I'll agree MS gets lots of bad press for its customer service... and most of it is deserved. I think this however is one time it isn't. There was a warning, he didn't care, and now he lost his save games and is whining about it. MS did nothing wrong here. They didn't do anything right either, but still, they didn't screw up for once
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-159466-100x100.png\")
It's funny how useless complaining to the BBB is. A while ago, I wrote a complaint about a company handling the water services for my apartment complex at the time, because the online system they used for billing was inaccessible due to poorly coded/executed code. They would send a paper bill through the USPS and expect payment to be sent back to them within 3 days of THEM SENDING THE BILL, otherwise, I would have to pay a $20 late fee, which was more than the actual bill every single time. I complained to the apt manager many many times, who recognized that their company was full of shit, and got credits against the \"late\" payments. However, when I moved, I obviously couldn't go back to the apt building as it was 3k miles away and complain when I received the last two bills with like $80 of late fees tacked on.
I called the company and complained, saying that I see in their system when I was billed (because that was the only usable part of the online system) and when they charged the late fee... literally separated by 3 days. Half of the time, I never even received a paper bill, and told them that. They said that it was impossible as they documented every case of sending out a paper bill. I said that was unlikely, because I was able to receive mail from every other company/individual who sent me something, but I rarely got a bill from that company. I implied that the statement on their bill \"late payment due to not receiving a bill via USPS will still result in the $20 late fee\" printed in huge red letters across the top of the letter was simply a way for them to make a crapload of money off of people by not actually sending the bill, sending the bill late, or doing the 3 day turnaround billing process. They hung up on me after I asked for escalation.
So, I wrote to the BBB. That process took about a week to get a response. After stating my case, it was obvious that the company did not even bother to read the complaint, as they addressed me as someone completely different, did not address ANY issue in the complaint, and basically said I was at fault. I wrote back with a scathing response suggesting that they actually read the complaint, understand it, and then respond so as not to look like fucking dumbasses. No response. BBB writes to me and asks if I'm OK with the \"resolution\" of absolutely nothing, and calls me to discuss, basically telling me they can't do anything anyway. So I was like why even bother? And they said that it will help customers make decisions in the future. I said I didn't have a choice because I wouldn't have accepted the terms during the lease signing (which I noticed were crap while signing the lease) had I been aware of the shady billing practices.
End of BBB is completely useless rant.
@Aprotosis: I'd love to agree with you, but I've experienced all 4 problems. \"Scratched rings\" in perfect circles on my game discs, more than one RRoD, lots of Live downtime, and games that are so DRM'd that I'm virtually locked out from them. You are right, we never do here the press of good customer service from MS, frankly I'm not sure if it exists. When I checked the Consumerist tags for Nintendo, I found quite a few though. And for Sony, outside of the dusty PS3 debacle, I didn't find ANY stories, good or bad. I love gaming on my Xbox, but right now it seems I have to spend more time dealing with faulty products or services than playing games.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-345033-100x100.png\")
Some people have been mentioning that I should have received a warning before recovering my profile. Here is the warning from Xbox.com regarding 'Roaming': \"With Xbox 360, your gamer profile can exist only in one place at one time, so downloading (or \"recovering\") it to a friend's system will invalidate the version of your profile that's still on your Xbox 360 Hard Drive, endangering any offline achievements and game saves since your last visit to Xbox Live.\"
This isn't the case here. My saved games were made when my profile was online and very much valid. Secondly, I've recovered my profile dozens of times in the past, and this has never been an issue. As well, Microsoft has acknowledged this as a genuine issue, so it's not a problem of misunderstanding the function of the service.
Thanks everyone for reading about my issue. I still love my 360, and hope Microsoft will do the right thing.
@jtheletter: It is broken functionality, I agree. And when someone who has that problem is screwed by it, then we can talk. This guy didn't have that problem.
What MS should do is if the gamertag is corrupt, it should be able to read that tag off the hard drive, memory card, whatever, then verify and restore. If the hard drive and memory card pass checks and the tag is nowhere to be found, then SOL. It'd solve their problems, those who do get corrupt gamer tags, and make people like Brad go back to friends house to get his memory card like he should have in the first place.
I had a similar problem with the eBay \"get mobile alerts\" mainly the \"via IM\" feature. After logging into AOL IM, ebay.com says \"service failed to respond.\" I emailed ebay and they replied \"sorry your AOL browser doesnt work, use Internet Explorer\". I replied \"This did not resolve my Instant Messaging Alerts problem. Please help me resolve it.\" They finally said they'd investigate the issue. Still not fixed, it's been 10 days.
What a nice fellow!
\"Talk to ma' hand sucker!
Kevin Lamb
Xbox Customer Support
Microsoft Corporation \"
I Love it! ^_^
This exact same issue happened to me and my friend when we tried recovering our profiles.
Not only that but when I moved from Europe to Canada I could not change my address information for my profile, which meant I needed to get a new gamertag. So since I was on the phone with an agent from customer service, I was asked whether I wanted to deactivate my old gamertag, which I agreed to, not knowing that in doing so I would not be able to access any games anymore that I had previously purchased on Live Arcade!
Now I can't sign into that profile anymore and I cannot launch my games anymore in my other profile.
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-229513-100x100.png\")
Hilarious. I know how he must feel. I had similar troubles contacting Microsoft, but not to this degree.
LOL, thats what you get for not reading Terms of Agreement, and I like how people think their game saves are important business, no one cares, restart the damn game
they aren't going to give you free stuff because your friend is too cheap ti get xbox live himself.
@RAREBREED:I bought a 360 at launch and had problems from day one.When I called they said everything purchased at launch was under waranty console premium,xtra controller,PGR,wifi adapter,rechargable batteries. Plus I bought a 3 Year extended waranty.Customer service is a joke!I had purchased all kinds of games over xbox live and after several consoles replaced the games could not be played unless I was online.At that time their was no mention in the downloads about being online to play.When I was at my end with sending consoles off and telling me there consoles don't scratch games what a joke, and the wireless adapter purchased from launch was not under any kind of waranty from day one. I demanded a refund on my live account and all dowloadable content and waranty I purchased threw them they denied me.I went a year and a half sending consoles, hd,and power bricks to them .Xbox live or any service is not worth that kind of hassle.I babbied all units made sure they were level and my stand was glass in a triangular shape no way could the console ever get hot.The consoles scratched every game I played. Heck I even used the remote to open and close the tray biggest waste of money I ever spent.In the end when they sent me a console that came on I went to the local game store with 2 rubber made containers filled with Xbox games,controllers,rechargable batteries,wifi adapter that worked some times I got a lousy credit of $800.00 because of me 25 friends of mine bought consoles at launch and had to deal with MS over thier units.I will never support this company again.I now have 2 PS3s 28 games 50 Blue Ray movies and not one problem going on a year.I am what some clasify as a hardcore gamer with expendable encome I am the last person they wanted to loose.The games over psn network do not require you to be online to play and game saves can be taked on any usb flash stick.All of my friends have done the same and not one has complained about any problems.I have left a PS3 running folding home for 2 months straight without any problems. replaced@RAREBREED:
finally! this happened to me about 3 weeks ago. Myxbox had no answer, but i finally found out the trick for this (yes there is a \"trick\"). If you try to do it at a certain time (usually after about 6-7) it will fail, and you will no longer be able to access your gamtertag, and therefore you're unable to get you're gamesaves or on xbl. Usually if you try again in the morning, you will be able to recover you're gamertag succesfully. Hope this helps, and it has been a problem for me on over 6 occasions
![\"user-pic\"](\"http://consumerist.com/assets_c/userpics/userpic-266342-100x100.png\")
I love how on the thread where he posted his problem on Xbox.com somebody said to back up his saves. I wasn't aware I bought a PC. I thought it was called a console.
I just love how it feels when you file a complaint about something, met out the results you desire, and the giant corporate monster doesn't understand. Instead, it copies and pastes a completely irrelevant response assuming it will make you go away. What ever happened to people actually paying attention at work, taking pride in what they do, and ensuring that customers get satisfaction??